The Fattorini Challenge! - One of every model...

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by topspin, Jan 2, 2017.

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  1. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Introducing: The Fattorini Challenge.

    I have been accumulating Fattorinis over the past year or so, and it occurred to me to wonder how many more I need to complete the set?
    Over the next several posts I will post pictures of examples of some of the different Waltham models I have found wearing Fattorini dials.
    Some of these I have already posted in other threads.
    Ignore the cases mine are in - many of them were bought as loose movements that I have then cased in anything that'll fit.
    I invite everyone else to post in with their examples.
    Any American model is allowed for this challenge - although you get a bonus point for anything that's not a Waltham.

    First up - Model 1882 1s - waiting for a case. This is also the only one that's not yet running.

    DSCN5971.jpg DSCN5970.jpg
     
  2. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Next up - an 1891 - with possibly original case, movement & dial, and not-quite so authentic Union Jack key fob in lieu of a chain...

    DSCN6752.jpg DSCN6782.jpg
     
  3. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Next up - an 1888. Movement is just a plain gilt job, nothing special to see.

    DSCN6780.jpg
     
  4. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Next up - the oldest - an 1857, from 1877. Is this likely to be an authentic original pairing? Were Fattorini selling 1857s with that dial at that address in 1877?

    DSCN6767.jpg DSCN6768.jpg
     
  5. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Next up - a group of three 1883s.
    One movement is stamped "Fattorini & Sons", one is stamped simply "FATTORINI", and one is left as standard. There may have been other variations, I'll add it later if I find one.
    Fattorini 1883s are plentiful and great fun. I'll add it later if I ever come across one that *isn't* a keywind.

    DSCN6779.jpg DSCN6773.jpg DSCN6774.jpg DSCN6776.jpg DSCN6768.jpg DSCN6769.jpg
     
  6. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    And last but not least (for tonight) - an 1877.
    I'm fairly sure I've seen an 1884, an 1897 and an 1899/1908 (all Fattorinis) come up for auction in the past few months... Has anyone got one? Has anyone seen any others?

    DSCN6771.jpg DSCN6772.jpg
     
  7. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Another '83!

    Model 1883 Home Fattorini AB.jpg Model 1883 Home Fattorini dial.jpg 1890 Birmingham AB.jpg
     
  8. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Oops! Nearly forgot one. This lever-set little number is (I believe) a 6s model 1873.

    DSCN6783.jpg DSCN6784.jpg
     
  9. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    If Neil is reading this thread, he will probably chime in about the abundance of Waltham watches with the Fattorini name on them. Most seem to be 7 jewel 1883's. I see you found some other models along the way, Nice collection.
     
  10. j j

    j j Registered User

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    #10 j j, Jan 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
    Waltham 1888 Royal, 15J, 1891 silver case.
    W680 Waltham 1888 Roy for Fattorini 15J 1891 (1).jpg W680 Waltham 1888 Roy for Fattorini 15J 1891 (3).jpg
     
  11. j j

    j j Registered User

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    Waltham 1884-Riverside, 13J, 1887.
    Dial markings gone but case hallmarked Fattorini & Son, Chester 1887.
    W713 Waltham 1884-Riverside 13J 1887 (1).jpg W713 Waltham 1884-Riverside 13J 1887 (3).jpg
     
  12. j j

    j j Registered User

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    Waltham 1899-620, 1903. Case hallmarked F&S
    W500-07.JPG W500-12.JPG
     
  13. j j

    j j Registered User

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    Waltham 1883-Sterling 1899
    W561 (6).JPG

    - - - Updated - - -

    Waltham 1888-24, 15J 1893. Swiss silver case.
    W566 (1).JPG
     
  14. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Photos - 10890514 model 1899 grade Traveler 7J (from about 1901.) Found this in my repairs queue. I think I bought this as a loose movement, & have rehoused it for now in an ex-GSTP case.
    Also (just the one I promise) a Swiss Fattorini watch (also a recent recase) which was evidently deserving of rather more writing on the dial than the Walthams.

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     

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  15. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Photos - 3841966. This is a little unusual for a Fattorini 1883 in that it appears to be a fairly decent grade (the database has it as a PSB) and it's a stemwind.
    "Non-magnetic" is written on the dial and the movement.
    Newly arrived, & in my repairs queue. Case maker "A.W". Back falling off. Missing hour hand expertly replaced by myself (it's the only one that would fit.)

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     

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  16. j j

    j j Registered User

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    A.W. = A. Wigley, partner to Dennison when the later set up his case making business and they sometimes used the A.W mark rather than A.B (Waltham). ALD was not used until after ALD's death.
     
  17. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Another quite interesting one recently changed hands -
    ebay item 201788160972, serial 1712522, keywind model 1877 movement stamped "FATTORINI", dial proudly declaring "Makers to the Queen and H.R.H. the Prince of Wales" (plus "Fattorini & Sons Bradford".) I assume that was referring to Queen Victoria and the future Edward VII. Looks like an "A.B" (Alfred Bedford) hallmark on the case.
     
  18. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    A couple of near twin movements, with very similar cases except for the crown. The the dials are marked Suisse, the movements look Swiss, the cases have Swiss marks, and one case has an English date mark but with no location office. And one dial has the "Westgate" location added, and an "Enterprise" mark in red, and the case has an IO&Co mark in addition to the F&SB marks. These seem to be well made 15 jewel keywind movements. Anyone wish to offer date estimates, or possibly recognize the movement maker? :)

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  19. j j

    j j Registered User

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    The IO & Co [or Ce?] has a London import mark for 1909 - the mark to the right with the little "u" in the Center shows it is a London Import, The Leopard head, anchor etc. were only used for UK made items.

    The movements are rather generic, lots of companies made ones very similar. Buren would be a good bet as Fattorini purchased English watches from Williamson who owned Buren at the time.
     
  20. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    JJ - thank you for the explanation of the import mark, and other observations!
     
  21. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    My final Fattorini - another non-magnetic, 7 jewels, "gun metal" snap bezel 2 hinge case with gold hinge and highlights, straight line lever with pins instead of pallet stones ...
    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     
  22. Mark UK

    Mark UK Registered User

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    Dave this first one with the '3 Bears' Swiss mark will date between December 1887 when the mark was introduced, and June 1907 when the Import marks were added
     
  23. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    Thank you Mark! I've a lot to learn about the UK practices, as well as everything else!
     
  24. j j

    j j Registered User

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    #24 j j, Jan 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
    Not so I'm afraid. There is no import mark here just F&S adding their house mark. The Swiss Bear marks ran from c1882 until 1934.

    935 was a Swiss grade not English which was .925 (Sterling) and .958 (Britannia) which was optional after 1720 and I have never seen it on a watch case.

    IIRC 1 large Bear was .875 and 2 large bears .935. And I have it in mind that the small bear was the Swiss assay house. .800 silver was a grouse.

    After 1934 the Swiss followed the English standard for purity in the higher grade with a duck for .925, but I don't recall ever seeing a watch with a duck on it, they usually have the English import mark, normally London with a few by Zenith coming through Glasgow.
     
  25. Mark UK

    Mark UK Registered User

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    In 1887 there was a new requirement for imported watches to be either hallmarked in the UK or in the country of origin and had to be at least '0.925' silver. The Swiss adopted the 3 bears at this time (2 large bears, 1 small) in order to satisfy the new UK legislation and distinguish '0.935' silver from what had been the standard '0.800' silver (and single bear). In 1907 the UK stipulated that all import silver had to be assayed in the UK. The 3 bears continued as an optional mark up to 1933 but as it didn't make sense to assay both in Switzerland and UK so it's use diminished.

    Daves watch case has the 3 bears (so is post 1887) and stamped '0.935' (so is post 1887) and it doesn't have UK assay import marks (not a requirement pre 1907)
     
  26. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    #26 Dave Chaplain, Jan 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
    Thank you guys for sharing your knowledge and helping me determine a date & date range for these F&SB watches! So, the case w/o the UK import mark should be dated sometime between when the bear marks began, and when the import marks began, or 1887-1907.
     
  27. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

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    This is the earliest Fattorini signed movement I have. An 1857 Model, S/N 895605 Home Grade that dates to 1876. It's in an A.W. Co, Sterling case that's engraved Thos Wolfenden Waterloo 1879.

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  28. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Next up - a model 1890 (6s) - running nicely...

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  29. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    And next up - a model 1908 from 1920-ish which is easily the latest Fattorini-Waltham I have seen.
    The dial reads "Fattorini & Sons Ltd Bradford" and "Waltham USA" which is also a little unusual.

    308604.jpg 308605.jpg
     

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  30. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

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    Hi Topspin,

    Is the movement signed Fattorini ?

    Nick
     
  31. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    No. This is a bog-standard Traveler movement, and the one before that was a bog-standard 1890.
    Unless any of the photos in this thread clearly show otherwise, I only recall seeing signed movements on the 18s models.
     
  32. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    A quick update on the first watch in this thread... The 1882 (1s) is now fixed up & running. A case has been found, where it looks nice and seems to sit very comfortably. It's totally not the case it's supposed to be in (so I can't set it and there's nothing holding the stem in place) but I'm pretty satisfied with the end result anyway.

    308620.jpg
     

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  33. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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  34. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Next up - a model 1894 (12s 11J) - a slightly interesting movement in that it's a gilt finish which is a little unusual (but by no means rare) for this model.
    This one is a new arrival today and is straight into my repairs queue.

    This is a bit like collecting Riversides... A bit harder to find, but generally somewhat cheaper when they do turn up. I will be well happy if I can find a model 1897 Fattorini.

    310301.jpg 310302.jpg
     

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  35. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    And next up - the most recent addition to the family...

    Waltham Pocket Watch Information: Serial Number 868039 (Grade Martyn Square)

    This one just has *everything* going for it...

    It is now the oldest (Jan-Feb 1876)
    It came in the first 18s GP keywind case I've ever seen (an ALD 10-year case, in VGC)
    It winds and is running properly (somewhat rare for one of my ebay purchases - usually I have to get them fixed up)
    It actually came with a key (and not even a modern one) (distinctly rare for ebay watch purchases)
    It's a "Martyn Sq" grade - common for model 1877, but much less common for an 1857 which this is recorded as being.

    I can only assume that this watch is "all original" ?

    DSCN7684.JPG DSCN7685.JPG DSCN7686.JPG
     
  36. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Next up -
    Two which are not "new" models for the list, but which are wearing interesting dials.
    We have a model 1891 which is marked for "A FATTOTINI" of Harrogate, and
    we have a very ordinary 1883 which has turned up wearing a Fattorini Dreadnought dial. Now in my repairs queue.

    DSCN8114.JPG DSCN8115.JPG DSCN8116.JPG
     
  37. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    And - a nice chunky model 1884 grade Hillside-with-a-screw-in-the-star-thing.
    I assume the screw is supposed to be there?

    DSCN8117.JPG DSCN8118.JPG
     
  38. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Model 88 produced in 1899, 17J Riverside pendent set, anti-magnetic.

    Keith R...

    103_8123 (800x600).jpg 103_8901 (1024x768).jpg 103_8135 (800x600).jpg
     
  39. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The star does not want to be screwed. You put an appropriately sized pin in that hole to arrest the winding mechanism, so you may unscrew the stem and disassemble the watch.
     
  40. ShawnHVoils

    ShawnHVoils Registered User

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    I have no idea if this has any bearing on the current conversation or not. But, I was watching " Sherlock Holmes Game of Shadows" for like the hundredth time the other day and towards the end of the movie Sherlock and Moriarty are playing a game of chess with a really cool timing watch/clock that I believe was labeled Fattorini and Sons. It was a super cool piece.
     
  41. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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  42. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Next up - another 1857 (Wm Ellery grade.) This one makes it into the gallery on account of its unusual dial.

    DSCN9041.JPG DSCN9040.JPG
     
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  43. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    Heres a few movements. A couple 6s Walthams with Fattorini & Sons dials and a "Thomas Fattorini, Bolton et Skipton, marked swiss almost glashütte style without a dial.

    15753933191291113231230309478377.jpg 15753933439022696745630974716991.jpg 1575393389781360151302353521090.jpg 15753935832553631043121009488677.jpg
     
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  44. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    Another one that makes it into the gallery on account of its fantastic dial.
    This one is "T Fattorini, Bolton & Skipton".

    DSCN9068.JPG
     
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  45. topspin

    topspin Registered User

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    And another one that makes it into the gallery on account of its unusually nice dial. On the inside is just a plain gilt traveler.

    DSCN9092.JPG
     
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