The elusive K&D #99 stump?

Discussion in 'Horological Tools' started by SwirlyMaple, Jun 27, 2020 at 6:40 PM.

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  1. SwirlyMaple

    SwirlyMaple Registered User

    Jun 10, 2020
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    Hi all, new poster here. I've got a really nice K&D 18R staking set that I've been trying to complete back to its original factory complement of stakes and stumps, based on the list here: Inverto Deluxe 18R

    I'm quite certain it was equipped with the list of 'early stakes' and 'early stumps' on that page, because it had everything listed except for a few of each that were missing.

    Anyway, I have everything now except a #99 stump. This is supposed to be a stump with an OD of 5.79mm and an ID of 1.50mm. I've purchased a few from different places that were supposed to be a 99, and so far none of them have been. Looking at photos of staking sets for sale on ebay over the last several months, I've only found one or two stumps that look like they could be this, based on scaling and measuring the images.

    This stump was supposedly standard in the 18R sets for years, all the way up to the last K&D sets made.

    Does anyone actually have one of these stumps? Does it measure as claimed? (And be careful, because one of the tapered-mouth stumps for Waltham friction staffs is very close, but it's not the right one...)

    (FWIW, the most recent I got measures the exact 5.79mm OD, but the hole is ~1.26mm, and it has a shoulder about 1.10mm into the stump that tapers down to a smaller hole, ~0.65mm. This matches nothing I've found anywhere for a K&D stump, but it is bizarrely close to the dimensions of a BW Raymond 16S balance staff. Anyone know if this might be a variant of the #99 stump, which was at one time listed as "Stake 16S Elgin Staff"?)
     
  2. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

    Feb 22, 2013
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    Do you have a photo of the Stump?
     
  3. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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  4. SwirlyMaple

    SwirlyMaple Registered User

    Jun 10, 2020
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    Yep, it's shown there on page 4. It looks like any of the rest of their stumps, with a full-diameter top (5.79mm, which very few of their stumps actually have), and a 1.50mm diameter hole. As far as I can tell, it's just a square-shouldered, straight-thru hole. The reason I posted here is so far, even after purchasing several assortments and individuals, I've yet to see a stump that matches this--and it should be very common if included with all 18R sets. So, if anyone actually has one, I'd really like to know that it does exist, and matches the dimensions claimed! :)
     
  5. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

    Feb 22, 2013
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    In my book "The Watchmakers Staking Tool" by George G. Lucchina and Archie B. Perkins it shows the #99-99A as a Elgin staff staking stump with #99 with a 1.50 hole an a 99A with a .89 hole.
     
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  6. SwirlyMaple

    SwirlyMaple Registered User

    Jun 10, 2020
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    Thanks much, and yep, that agrees with what I've seen in all the old K&D tool catalogs I've found online too. The thing is, I've never actually *seen* a stump that matches those dimensions, in photos or in the ~60 stumps I now have! I have a few of the #99A now, but none that match the #99 dimensions of 5.79mm OD/1.5mm ID. So, I was hoping someone here owned one to show me that it really is the size they claim, or if I'm wasting my time trying to find one.
     
  7. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

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    H found 2 in my sets with the 5.79 head Dia. but no way to determine the hole size.

    K&D stump.JPG
     
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  8. SwirlyMaple

    SwirlyMaple Registered User

    Jun 10, 2020
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    Can you take a pic of the one in your calipers that shows the hole, like the one above it? I can scale it and measure it with computer software since we know the outside diameter. The top one looks smaller than 1.5mm to my eye but I will double check. Thanks, really appreciate you taking the time to help!
     
  9. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

    Feb 22, 2013
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    is this what you need?

    DSC_0029.JPG
     
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  10. SwirlyMaple

    SwirlyMaple Registered User

    Jun 10, 2020
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    Yes, thank you! The one on the left has a shoulder inside, just like the one I have, and the hole is ~1.25mm, also like mine. I have no idea what this stump actually is, because none of K&D's stumps in their publications have those dimensions. I can only guess it really is a #99, but for some reason their claimed 1.50mm ID just isn't correct. I don't know what else it could possibly be, because none of their other stumps with 5.79mm OD have a hole even close to 1.25mm.

    The one on the right appears to be the same as the one on the left, as best I can tell, but it's hard to see if it actually has a shoulder inside because of the lighting. I can say for sure though, the hole in it also isn't 1.50mm. So at least we've confirmed you have 1 or 2 stumps like mine, but none yet that have the claimed #99 dimensions. The plot thickens... ;)
     
  11. SwirlyMaple

    SwirlyMaple Registered User

    Jun 10, 2020
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    FWIW, here's an animation of my stump scaled and overlaid on top of yours. There's lighting and a slight angle difference between the images, but they're definitely the same dimensions. So is this the #99? Will we ever know? :)

    stumps_anim.gif
     
  12. SwirlyMaple

    SwirlyMaple Registered User

    Jun 10, 2020
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    Also, here's a couple pics of my set if anyone cares to see. It has some extras in it besides the original factory setup, but everything from the original assortment is there (with the questionable #99!). I've cleaned all the stakes and checked all the holes to make sure they're clear, even the tiniest ones. It's in fantastic condition. It was made sometime close to 1945 I think, because it has the 26 hole die plate and the older style adjustable roller removers. I do use it for watch repair too of course, but it's such a beauty that it's also a decoration in my cabinet :)

    IMG_1609.jpg IMG_1612.jpg
     
  13. Dushan Grujich

    Dushan Grujich Registered User

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    #13 Dushan Grujich, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:34 PM
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020 at 12:48 PM
    G'Day!

    It is easy, if one has a correct measuring tool. Nevertheless, diameter of the hole in the stump can still be measured without a specialised measuring tool, providing that one has a watchmakers lathe and some kind of a precision micrometer, either the screw, or a dial type.

    Using lathe, out of a piece of blued steel wire say 2 mm OD, turn three internal diameter "go-no go" gauges, 1.49, 1.50 and 1.51 mm in diameter. Check with micrometer that they are exactly what you want and use them to check the stump hole size.

    For watch work I use a set of Bergeon branded pin gauges 7/100 - 50/100 mm with 1/100 mm step, for larger hole sizes I made a set 50/100 - 180/100 mm with 5/100 mm step and I also have a couple precision German FKS dial gauges, one is 0.20-5.00 mm and the other is 3.00-8.00 mm with resolution of 1/100 mm

    Cheers, Dushan

    Jewel_Plug_Gauges.jpg DIY Hole Gauges 0.50 - 1.8 mm.JPG FKS Precision Hole Dial Gauge.jpg
     
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  14. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

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    I have tried your way and ordered a used 99 and 99a stump just to see.
     
  15. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

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    I have these two and another one that getting its case cleaned and refinished the dark one is almost complete and de-rusted the blond one is waiting for attention. like you I have another 150 stakes and around 50 stumps to finish up all three sets and when i get one complete I will sell the other 2.

    DSC_0031.JPG
     
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  16. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

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    #16 Firegriff, Jun 29, 2020 at 8:19 PM
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020 at 8:24 PM
    I have a standard inch precision steel pen set that goes from .011 to .060 good and cheep metric ones are harder to find. I will probably try your make it your self pin gauge as a learning to use my lathe project.
     
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  17. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

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    I was never able to score a set with the micrometer adjustment setup.
     
  18. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

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    I was looking closely at your picts and to me it looks like the hole tapers could these actually be the ones for Waltham staffs.?
     
  19. SwirlyMaple

    SwirlyMaple Registered User

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    #19 SwirlyMaple, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:27 AM
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020 at 1:37 AM
    Nope, I'm pretty sure they aren't. The ones for the Waltham friction staffs have a conical taper right at the start of the hole, and it's very hard to see with the naked eye, as it's a very slight taper. If you force a piece of sharpened pegwood into it and rotate it to create an indent, and then remove it, you can see the slight taper in the mark left on the wood. (FWIW, I also use this trick to measure hole diameters in non-tapered stumps. It's not as good as a pin gauge, but it'll get pretty close if done correctly. You have to force the tapered point into the hole, and carefully rotate it while applying force to create an indent. Then you can remove it and measure the widest part of the indent with calipers to get a very close approximation of the hole diameter).

    These stumps we have pictured in this thread have an actual shoulder inside, not a taper (at least mine does). I managed to get my hands on a 16S Elgin BW Raymond staff and I've found it fits perfectly in my stump. I'm really starting to believe it is a #99 stump, and they just changed them over the years... because their older tool catalogs at one time just listed them as being for a 16S Elgin BW Raymond. I can't think of any other explanation for what it could be, because there's nothing else in the Elgin stump listings that has an OD of 5.79mm and an ID in this range.

    P.S. If you need help identifying the tapered stumps for the Waltham staffs, I can help out. I have multiples of them and I'm quite sure they are what I think they are. The OD of the top is a dead giveaway, because the tapered ones for Waltham staffs get no bigger than 5.61mm at the top. Each tapered mouth stump for driving out the staffs has a corresponding non-tapered stump for driving them in. The diameters of the tops of each pair are matching.

    waltham.PNG
     
  20. Firegriff

    Firegriff Registered User

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    #20 Firegriff, Jul 1, 2020 at 3:53 PM
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020 at 4:01 PM
    When looking at all the K&D catalogs and pictures I have there is also a difference in the lower ring machined into the stump the Elgin ones are squared off and the Walthems have a wedge on the top of the ring and squired off lower part of the ring Some of my stumps are squared of some seem to be not so squared off (fingernail test) I will have to go over them with a loupe to make sure. also my staff collection is not to well organized on the Waltham side mostly for WWll military watches but i do have some Elgin 12s 16s 18s staffs to try when the possible 99-99a stumps I ordered. I love
    researching tool mysteries.
     

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