The "Dollar" watch, show me some of yours.

[Jim Haney]

Steven,
In the back of the Townsend booklet he has all of the Pat'd numbers listed and all of yours belong to the The New Haven Clock Co and to Inventor Porter.

These watches we have were contract watches made by New Haven to large jobbers or retailers, similar to the Burlington Watch Co. watches made by Illinois.

Your 2nd watch case is the same as mine but the 1st one is different.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Steven,
In the back of the Townsend booklet he has all of the Pat'd numbers listed and all of yours belong to the The New Haven Clock Co and to Inventor Porter.

These watches we have were contract watches made by New Haven to large jobbers or retailers, similar to the Burlington Watch Co. watches made by Illinois.

Your 2nd watch case is the same as mine but the 1st one is different.

Thanks, Jim. I agree on the source of the patents. That's where I found them. I haven't checked them but note that Townsend has a few "blank" patents because of a misreading or misstamping of the patent date.
My interest re jobbers is whether both Leonard and Robinson might be specific only to New Haven.

 

[PatH]

I found 2 watches at the show in Wilmington, OH last week.
This is a seldom seen International Watch Co,that I paid $4 for. Well..... it wasn't working.......and missing the second hand.......




I did find these watches in Col. Townsend original small Dollar watch book, but not this later version. His Plate 47 is a match but this watch has more info on the plates, but the Pat'd dates match. He also has the Company in Newark City, NJ and the watch says Jersey City, NJ.

It is ticking right along and keep excellent time. Just needed cleaning and a new second hand

Thanks for posting this great watch, Jim! I'd say you got a bargain.

I've found that Townsend's book is rather light on the history of this company as well as drawings of the movements. I don't have all of my notes with me, but I think this one is an earlier version of the watch - with no company name, but the same patents. One of Harrold's articles includes a discussion of the company, but I'm having trouble accessing the articles right now.

 

[PatH]

Here's an International Watch Co William Tell model. Later version with more patents listed, but no company name. (I like to call these my IWC watches. Not to be confused with the watches more commonly referred to as IWC!)

 

[Jim Haney]

Pat,
Great watches. I would agree that the 2 you are showing are earlier than the one I pictured. Same Pat'd dates. Good Stuff !!

 

[Steven Thornberry]

This is an advertising watch for Poll Parrot shoes by Ansonia. The movement is Plate # 2 in Townsend. I believe it is from the 1920’s.


I have found a little information on the origins of Poll Parrot shoes. See the following. I’m not sure these bits all hang together well.

It seems that a man named Paul Parrot had a shoe store in St. Louis. He kept a parrot in the store., which became Poll Parrot, and the shoes were named after it. In 1922, the International Shoe Company acquired Poll Parrot shoes and in that same year applied to register a trademark for “POLL-PARROT within an oval with picture of a parrot perched on either side.”
The Rubber Age

The on-line Collector’s Journal from July 30, 2018, indicates that the name Poll Parrot was copyrighted in 1925. I haven’t verified that independently.
Poll-Parrot shoes

An on-line reference to Collectors Weekly from 2013 shows a picture of an Ingraham watch from June 1927 with a dial that has the same image as on this Ansonia dial.
1927 Poll-Parrot Pocket Watch & F0b | Collectors Weekly

The 1920’s were not kind to Ansonia financially, and production suffered accordingly. In 1929 negotiations were concluded to sell the firm to Soviet Russia’s Amtorg Trading Corporation. After fulfilling some orders that Ansonia’s managers felt obligated to fulfill, all the machinery was shipped to Russia in mid-1930.

 

[PatH]

It's been a couple of weeks since dollar watch fans have seen anything new, so....Two more International Watch Co watches. One is marked C. W. Co Chicago and one C. & W. Special. Both in "faux" gun metal cases. Same patents listed on both watches as well as the William Tell in Post #404. All are Kuhn/International Watch Co patents.

 

[johnnypocket]

It's been a couple of weeks since dollar watch fans have seen anything new, so....Two more International Watch Co watches. One is marked C. W. Co Chicago and one C. & W. Special. Both in "faux" gun metal cases. Same patents listed on both watches as well as the William Tell in Post #404. All are Kuhn/International Watch Co patents.

View attachment 530503 View attachment 530504 View attachment 530506 View attachment 530507

Thanks for posting Pat, and a big thanks for that informative article re; Fair watches. If you missed it its in the current Bulletin (May/June) on pg 253. Thanks for doing all you do for our organization and ultimately for us, as members.

 

[PatH]

Thanks for posting Pat, and a big thanks for that informative article re; Fair watches. If you missed it its in the current Bulletin (May/June) on pg 253. Thanks for doing all you do for our organization and ultimately for us, as members.

Thanks, johnnypocket. The Life IS Fair! series of articles started with the 1893 Columbian Exposition watch, one of the first dollar watches and the world's early exposure to Ingersolls. The earlier articles in the series are in past issues over the last couple of years. Learning about the watches, the fairs and the world at the time of each fair has been fascinating. The 1939 article just went for proofing, and there are a couple more to go. Then, I've found some additional information and examples since starting the series, so will have a final article that tells about some of the new discoveries as well as other horological tidbits from the Fairs.

Posted below is Ingersoll's Columbian Exposition watch.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

This watch is marked on the dial “Flagg’s Special.” It has a New Haven movement, plate 57 in Townsend. The Guarantee paper identifies the “manufacturer” as the Flagg Watch Manufacturing Co. at 165 Tremont Street in Boston.



Other than on a few similar watches (see below), I have not been able to find any mention of a Flagg Watch Manufacturing Co., at least by that name. White, Orr and Company’s Reference Register for 1918-19 does list a Flagg Manufacturing Co. as a watch manufacturer/dealer at the same Tremont Street address.

White-Orr's Reference Register

Other references to a Flagg Manufacturing Co. mention a company at 110 Lincoln Street in Boston. They seem to have been involved in the production of shoe manufacturing machinery. For example, see pages 216 and 226 of the following book issued in 1897 under the supervision of the Boston Chamber of Commerce. (FWIW, 110 Lincoln Street seems about a 10-minute walk from 165 Tremont Street.)

Boston, Massachusetts : Engelhardt, George W. (George Washington) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Same company? It’s possible, I suppose. It might have made a move from Lincoln Street to Tremont Street sometime between 1897 and 1918, or it might have opened a separate location for watch manufacturing. Maybe there were separate branches of the Flagg family in different businesses, somewhat like the Studebakers, some of whom made wagons, horseless carriages, and the like, while others went into the watch manufacturing trade. In any event, I suspect the Flagg Watch Manufacturing Co. was likely some sort of “private label,” a distributor and/or retailer, much as was the Leonard Watch Co., also located in Boston.

I have found a couple of references to Flagg’s Specials. One was on the Chapter 149 message board. Two watches were mentioned, both of which had New Haven movements, plate 57 in Townsend.

Flagg's Special - Web Horology Message Board

Another mention was on this Message Board. In Post 11 of the thread linked below, the poster opined that the movement was by Ingersoll. No pictures of the movement were attached, however.

My Cheap Collection

And, FWIW, Townsend lists Flagg’s Special as a name used on Ingersoll pocket watches, but does not mention it with regard to New Haven. So, was there an error by the MB poster, as well as an error by Townsend? Or did the Flagg Watch Manufacturing Co. acquire watches from both New Haven and Ingersoll?

 

[PatH]

Thanks for the additional Flagg research, Steven. I had also found some references to zithers/harps made (?) or distributed by Flagg Manufacturing.

My Flagg watch and case are just like yours - with the exception of the watch paper, a bow and the bit of lint in the slot of the screw.

 

[Jim Haney]

Steven,
Good Job or researching the watch.

I would agree that it was most likely a small watch co set up to do promotions watches for small companies. It was a Big deal to have a watch with company's name or a brand name, they most likely bought the movements from New haven ( we have seen a pattern of this) and finished them to suit what ever they were promoting.

The link for Web Horology was for Sam Kirk's old MB but it was made up of mostly 149 members and their signatures all showed 149 in them.Most of those links are in cyberspace.

Nice watch and it was finished to a higher degree than a regular "Dollar" watch and very collectible, if you are crazy, like we are, and appreciate these nuggets

 

[PatH]

Speaking of Specials, here's an unmarked Ingersoll U.S. Special. U.S. Special isn't listed in Townsend's book, but the movement is pictured as Ingersoll plate 26.

Post #407 was an International Watch Company C. & W. Special, and #18 is Jerry Treiman's Waterbury Special.

 

[johnnypocket]

Im pretty sure This may have been one of the 400 posts (I knew we had alot of closet Dollar lovers..lol) I will risk a repost and challenge us to reach 500....This one was from the 32nd National in 1975. I just added it under the premise, well why not...Its a piece of our history. I'm sure some seasoned veterans have a collection of many of these. Were these given at all conventions, or a choice by the host as to provide?

 

[johnnypocket]

Speaking of Specials, here's an unmarked Ingersoll U.S. Special. U.S. Special isn't listed in Townsend's book, but the movement is pictured as Ingersoll plate 26.

Post #407 was an International Watch Company C. & W. Special, and #18 is Jerry Treiman's Waterbury Special.

View attachment 533014 View attachment 533015 View attachment 533021

That is a unique watch Pat, I never saw a Ingersoll with that dial. Sorry I posted at same time changing theme, I like the discussion on the specials better, ...lol....Very informative stuff....I as a relatively new collector appreciate this learning experience.

 

[PW Collector]

Steven,
My Flagg's Special is also a New Haven (plate 57 design).
It's the one I posted on Web Horology several years back.
The back cover has a different design then yours and the back plate has a scalloped or fish scale design.
Otherwise it is similar to yours, including the watch guarantee paper.
Dave

 

[musicguy]

Im pretty sure This may have been one of the 400 posts

I may have posted my Ohio NAWCC dollar watch somewhere in this thread
but can't go back and see too lazy.


Rob

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Steven,
My Flagg's Special is also a New Haven (plate 57 design).
It's the one I posted on Web Horology several years back.
The back cover has a different design then yours and the back plate has a scalloped or fish scale design.
Otherwise it is similar to yours, including the watch guarantee paper.
Dave

View attachment 533143 View attachment 533144 View attachment 533145 View attachment 533146 View attachment 533147

Aha! Nice to see it. And I’m still scratching my head over how I got Chapter 149 out of Web Horology. Sam Kirk is probably spinning in his grave.

 

[PW Collector]

"Speaking of Specials" post #413 by Pat H.
I'm not sure if this "Special" has been posted by someone.
H. W. Co. Special
Manufactured by, The E. Ingraham Co.
Patented
Aug. 27. 1907
Sept. 3. 1907
Others Pending
This is one of the first style movements by Ingraham after purchasing The Bannatyne Watch Co. in 1912.
The same patent dates & pending are stamped on the Bannatyne movement.
This H. W. Co. Special has a manufacture date of Nov. 1916
The plastic crystal has yellowed.
Dave

 

[PW Collector]

A couple of more "Specials"
Aristocrat Railroad Special
Both by Ingraham
The one on the left is, The E. Ingraham Co. mfg. 1953
The on on the right is, Ingraham mfg. 1960
Dave

 

[PatH]

Here's an Ingersoll Buster Brown watch (Townsend's plate #35) and the card that advertised it as a giveaway. Unfortunately, someone got creative with their "monogramming" on the dial... Someday I hope to find one of these in better condition.

 

[4thdimension]

Buster and Tige were, perhaps, the first character watch. I used to own a Yellow kid watch, who was Outcault's first character, but I believe the Buster watches were earlier.-Cort

 

[PatH]

Buster and Tige were, perhaps, the first character watch. I used to own a Yellow kid watch, who was Outcault's first character, but I believe the Buster watches were earlier.-Cort

Do you happen to have a picture of the Yellow Kid watch, Cort? Would love to see it.

Some call this New Haven Mary Had a Little Lamb watch the first character watch. Mary only makes an appearance on the case, so not what we normally think of when someone says character watch.

 

[4thdimension]

Sorry, I owned it before I had a camera. I also had a Yellow kid mechanical gum machine which, alas, was stolen many years ago. Mary may indeed predate all of them though! I've seen a pic of one of those before but it was in poorer shape than yours. Neat one!-Cort

 

[johnnypocket]

Most recent add, A Seven Seas Nautical Pocket Watch. I have been after a good example of this for a long time and I found one. They were made by The Nautical Clock Co. from Norfolk Va.. The patent date was 1938, and this is a mint 1958 production with a Norfolk Box included (Bristol Box markings also were produced). The Bristol Ct. is tied in because Ingraham Watch Co. from Bristol, made the movements for all Nautical watches. There were a few variants to the numbers on the dial, this one features Gold Roman Numerals. Worth the wait for this former Navy Sailor stationed in Norfolk !
Seven Seas Pocket Watch by Nautical Clock Co. | Collectors Weekly

 

[musicguy]

I've always liked these Seven Seas Nautical Pocket Watches
and you have the original box, Nice!


Rob

 

[musicguy]

RE: Fake Coca Cola pocket watches

Can anyone here confirm this statement halfway down the page
where he says all Coca Cola pocket watches are fake.
Fake Items | Blaine Martin's Guide to Coca-Cola Memorabilia

Personally I've seen so many fake product watches that it
wouldn't surprise me, but I would have to see a 1950's-1960's
advertisement that shows these were really
being sold under license back then by these watch co.'s


Rob

 

[Jim Haney]

Rob,
The price guide has Coke Dollars watch by Ingram c1948 the one pictures on the bottom row,on the left.

I would thing that Local Coke distributors, for instance we have one of the original ones here in Chattanooga, could have made a deal for them from the Dollar watch companies, unknown to corporate Coco-cola.

 

[musicguy]

The price guide has Coke Dollars watch by Ingram c1948 the one pictures on the bottom row,on the left.

I know about that, but are there any newspaper advertisements(or promotional material or an original box) from that time that show
them? I would assume there would be an advertisement because they are
available for many of the watches out there.

I would doubt a major watch co would put trade mark material on
a large number of watches without permission. Even in the 40's
they were strict about copyright infringement.


Rob



EDIT: I only ask because my son wants one of these and I'm
trying to do research on them.

 

[PatH]

I know there are Mansfield watches included in this thread, but there are also some examples of Mansfield watches and car clocks by New Haven, Ingersoll and Westclox as well as advertising in this thread.
MANSFIELD GLOWNITE POCKET/STOP[?] WATCH....help

 

[johnnypocket]

Always on the prowl for a unusual or I should say somewhat rare one. My few years of collecting this is the first Ingersoll Yankee Bicycle watch i have come across. So yes I happily added it to my watch collection. Its a runner, far from a everyday carry, but it is a runner non the less. It has a few spacial issues with movement in case, but I am sure as i can be it is all originial. Any other Bicycle watches out there? I would love to see them.

 

[musicguy]

Very nice!



Rob

 

[PatH]

Glad to see there are still some Bicycles around! Congratulations on your find.

Ingersoll was big into "bicycle sundries" including bells, cyclometers, etc. as well as bicycles and a couple of bicycle watches. The first one pictured here is missing the movement cover, but it does allow you to see what's "behind the curtain".

The second watch is an Ingersoll private label for the Boston Cycle Co., a turn of the century company that sold sundries as well as new and second-hand bicycles. (Ad from Google Books 1900 issue of The National Magazine).

 

[johnnypocket]

Glad to see there are still some Bicycles around! Congratulations on your find.

Ingersoll was big into "bicycle sundries" including bells, cyclometers, etc. as well as bicycles and a couple of bicycle watches. The first one pictured here is missing the movement cover, but it does allow you to see what's "behind the curtain".

The second watch is an Ingersoll private label for the Boston Cycle Co., a turn of the century company that sold sundries as well as new and second-hand bicycles. (Ad from Google Books 1900 issue of The National Magazine).

View attachment 536448 View attachment 536449 View attachment 536450 View attachment 536451 View attachment 536455

Real nice Pat, I knew you had a example in your bag of trix. Your bag is like Felix the cats...lol(showing age now with 60's cartoons)....PS; slight deviation from DW's but your presentation/webinar the other night on Watch Keys was very well done and informative. Bravo.

 

[PatH]

Thanks, johnnypocket. Did you notice I was able to throw in a couple of dollar watches even though the topic was watch keys? Give me enough time, and I can bring just about any conversation around to dollar watches! I hope this thread has raised awareness of the variety and helped others appreciate these amazing watches.

By the way, if you search the NAWCC Museum collection online, you'll find that they also have a Bicycle in their collection. It's included in the dollar watch display along with some other very nice watches.

 

[johnnypocket]

Thanks, johnnypocket. Did you notice I was able to throw in a couple of dollar watches even though the topic was watch keys? Give me enough time, and I can bring just about any conversation around to dollar watches! I hope this thread has raised awareness of the variety and helped others appreciate these amazing watches.

By the way, if you search the NAWCC Museum collection online, you'll find that they also have a Bicycle in their collection. It's included in the dollar watch display along with some other very nice watches.

HaHa Pat, I did notice the DW in the presentation. I am going to the museum this summer. I cant wait to see the CW Pocket Watch display By Clint Geller. I will seek out all DW's as you could guess. As you said this thread brought awareness to how much this part of the hobby is still enjoyed by many.

 

[Gregory]

When I was a kid in the mid 50s I remember looking into the show case at those pocket watches at Walker's General Store which was right across the road from the Appalachian Marble Co. quarry in Knoxville, TN. They were called dollar biscuits by the people around there.

My grandpa bought me one when I was about 8 years old and I think the price was somewhere around $8 at that time. It ran pretty good laying on its back over night but when carried it would lose a lot of time. But I was a kid and really liked the old watch anyway. I remember the watch was pretty loud when it was running.

Later on my grandpa gave me his Elgin open face pocket watch that his Dad, my great grandpa, had given to him when he started high school in about 1918. I didn't know the model number. I loved that watch. It was a sad day when I came home one afternoon to find that our house had been broken into and it had been stolen.

I still look for that old Elgin to this day when I'm at estate sales, antique stores or where ever I see an Elgin pocket watch for sale. It had the initials CME engraved on the back for Clyde E. Monday.

 

[PatH]

Ingersoll Steamer Tionesta watch with a red (or at least red at one time) anchor on the dial and engraved Steamer Tionesta on the back of the case. The movement is marked Ingersoll with the latest patent date of 1901. The Tionesta was one of three sister ships built for the Anchor Line, a subsidiary of the Pennsylvania Railroad. Tionesta entered service in 1903. The ships ran between Buffalo NY and Duluth during the period when relatively luxurious passenger ships on the Great Lakes were common.

 

[PatH]

Here's one of my favorites - a Dewey commemorative watch by Ingersoll, along with an ad for the watch.

Unfortunately, it seems that there was some dispute over the dial design as noted in the article from the December 20, 1899 Jeweler's Circular. Mr Clarke took exception to the similarity to his patented design USD31501.

I've been taking advantage of the long weekend to go through some ephemera, scan, organize, file, etc. One of my collecting interests is watches/clocks that were given as premiums. In a publication that I bought a couple of years ago, I was amazed to find the below premium for selling The American Boy subscriptions. It's the first time I've seen one of the souvenir Ingersoll watches offered as a premium. Kind of surprising that there aren't more of them around based on this finding.

The catalog included an Ansonia dollar watch for 6 subscriptions/$2, a New York Standard watch for 20 new subscriptions/$10 as well as other Ingersoll and Weeden products. (Weeden was instrumental in bringing the Waterbury dollar watches into production, before going on to invent and produce small steam engines and other products that were marketed for boys.)

The American Boy was the largest magazine for boys (1899-1941), featuring action stories and advertising. In 1929, it merged with Youth's Companion, another magazine that offered many premiums for selling subscriptions. (dates from Wikipedia)

 

[Sbraman]

Pat I actually have one of those. I will upload some pictures if I can figure it out.

 

[Sbraman]

Ingersoll Quaker - circa 1902
Retail Price was $2.50 each
Net Trade Price was $18.00/Doz
"...our new fancy engraved three-quarter back movement plate with fancy engraved solid bridge..."
"This watch is our finest production and is a most wonderful piece of mechanism."

Pat

View attachment 501446 View attachment 501447 View attachment 501448

I have one of these. Here is a few pictures.

 

[PatH]

I am going to the museum this summer. I cant wait to see the CW Pocket Watch display By Clint Geller. I will seek out all DW's as you could guess. As you said this thread brought awareness to how much this part of the hobby is still enjoyed by many.

@johnnypocket
I know the summer's not over, but just wondering if you've made your trip to museum yet?

 

[johnnypocket]

@johnnypocket
I know the summer's not over, but just wondering if you've made your trip to museum yet?

So funny you ask Pat...I am in the Lancaster Hotel as I write this and I am going there this morning. Can't wait, also will work in a trip to the former Hamilton Factory, since I am in Lancaster, and will spin by 106 E. King st (will re check address, thats from memory), which was Bowmans originial location in Lancaster. I believe King St is a thrift store now. Bowmans history in Lancasters history in Horology is a great one, and to see it will be great. So yes cant wait to " make my rounds". And the all great restaraunts in Lancaster are making my pants shrink. Will post my report on Clints CW exhibit, which I cant wait to see !

 

[johnnypocket]

So funny you ask Pat...I am in the Lancaster Hotel as I write this and I am going there this morning. Can't wait, also will work in a trip to the former Hamilton Factory, since I am in Lancaster, and will spin by 106 E. King st (will re check address, thats from memory), which was Bowmans originial location in Lancaster. I believe King St is a thrift store now. Bowmans history in Lancasters history in Horology is a great one, and to see it will be great. So yes cant wait to " make my rounds". And the all great restaraunts in Lancaster are making my pants shrink. Will post my report on Clints CW exhibit, which I cant wait to see !

I went to Museum today...WOW it was awesome.....I really enjoyed it....There was so much to see we were there 3 hours and could have spent more time....will definitly go back....The RR's , Dollars and the PW displays were great. The CW exhibit was so well done and well worth the trip alone....I picked up Clint's CW book as well as others....made it into the research/Library area....treated so nice by the staff....Made me proud in front of my family, to be a member....If you are on the fence about a trip I'd say go for it.

 

[PatH]

Here is a dollar watch with an Ingersoll movement and case similar to some of the Ingersolls, but the dial and watch paper both say Devon. Wondering if this could have been another Ingersoll private label? There is a modern Devon company, but I think it's probably unrelated to this one. Thoughts? Other examples?

 

[miguel angel cladera]

A trench Ingersoll Midget from WWI period

 

[PatH]

Just pulled out Townsend's book and confirmed - he documented Devon Manufacturing Chicago as a name used on Ingersoll watches. This is the only example I have, but did find one other example on line with a more decorative dial.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Just pulled out Townsend's book and confirmed - he documented Devon Manufacturing Chicago as a name used on Ingersoll watches. This is the only example I have, but did find one other example on line with a more decorative dial.

I found a couple of advertisements by Devon Manufacturing Co. in Chicago, one in the Feb. 1, 1912, ed. of Pottery and Glass Salesmen (whatever that is) and one in a Mar. 30, 1912 issue of Colliers. The ad in Pottery and Glass Salesmen shows the So. Sangamon St. address indicated on yours.

The Pottery & Glass Salesman (bottom of left hand column).

Collier's (Left-hand column, last entry under High-Grade Salesmen).

I also found an entry in a 1916 issue of The Era Druggists’ Directory. This shows an address for Devon of 6320 Harvard Ave. in Chicago. I assume the same company, and that it had changed addresses. It does not seem too far from So. Sangamon.

The Era Druggists' Directory

Accepting the approximate date or your movement as 1912 (per Townsend's chart), perhaps we can narrow down production date of your watch to the 1912 to 1915 period.

I also found references to a Devon Manufacturing Co. in NYC and one in Brooklyn. I am not sure whether these two entities are the same, but it seems possible there is a connection. Then the question is whether they are in any way related to the Chicago Devon Mfg. Co.

Just some thoughts.

 

[PatH]

Thank you, Steven! It's great hearing how different products were distributed and how sales forces were managed.

 

[Jim Haney]

Ran across this classic by "New England Watch Co." who really produced some novelty watches, like Dan Patch,Skeletons, Colorful Dials ,etc.

They used the Duplex escapement escape wheel which hit the roller on the balance wheel doing away with the pallet fork.They became the Timex Watch Co.

In the picture of the plate you don't see any pivots because they are covered by the solid top plate which must be removed to oil the pivots.

The enamel black dial is very impressive with the gold numbers & hands for contrast.