The clocks of Charles Alvah Smith

[Dick C]

View attachment 753574
The pallet assembly (Red Arrow) is mounted on a steel pin projecting forward from the back plate.
The brass screw serves as a stop to keep the assembly from moving forward and helps to keep the escape wheel centered on the pallets (brass rollers). If your clock was running then this never needs to be adjusted.

The signature, movement number, and date are probably on the back of the dial near the edge. Look in the narrow slot between the front plate and dial on both sides of the clock. Sometimes the movement number is also stamped on the back of the back plate. Looking forward to seeing photos of your clock.

Troy

The brass screw doesn't appear to have been screw in to keep the assembly in check.

I have looked all over this clock and have not found any signature, nor any stamps where one would normally find them.

Photos to come soon.

Thanks

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

From the photos in Post #32. What is the purpose of the brass screw shown at the end of the green arrow?
I ask because I have purchased a clock that has the same structure as Mr. Brown's; however, I see no function for the screw.

Yes, I will be posting photos of this clock and asking for your comments. I cannot find any signature on this clock; however, in light pencil there is #12 in 3 places.

View attachment 753515

If unsigned, that's unusual for CAS.

#12? If so, that would be one of his very early clocks! If that's the case, he may not have been signing them at that point? OTOH, I posted clock # 16 on this thread which was signed indicating his relatively early adoption of that practice.

There are other features that would indicate an early clock. Please provide some pix.

If you have the original mounting block, he typically rubber stamped his name on that.

Finally, I have posted a rare time and strike wall clock on this thread. That clock is signed in the usual places as well as the dial. Don't know of another where he did that, but worth looking closely there, too

RM

 

[Dick C]

Here are my initial photos. Following are a few notes of what I have seen/not seen on this clock:

1. Appears to made of maple
2. The number 12 appears in pencil in four places:
o On the backboard just below the opening
o On the top center of the front and back plates of the movement
o On the center of the bonnet top back
3. The clicks do not operate as the springs have become corroded
4. The escape wheel is not engaging the rollers as it appears that the adjustment of the rollers has not been made
5. The brass screw that I addressed in a recent post has not been screwed in enough to provide a stop function.
6. The weight must have been dropped; damage showing.
7. The pendulum rod and bob were not with the clock.

Having read the NAWCC posts, PDFs, etc. along with multiple readings of John Anderson's book, I am perplexed as to what this is. I do not believe that it is early due to the rope hooks and I believe that the number 12 just was used to identify pieces that were to go together as part of a manufacturing process. It does appear that there may be some variations of maple wood used within the movement, so was someone rebuilding the works? Has anyone seen this variation of the dial? I am not a woodworker; thus, have to determine what to do with this clock so I appreciate any criticism, suggestions, etc. that you might have including suggestions as to who I might speak to about possible restoration.

Many thanks,
Dick

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Here are my initial photos. Following are a few notes of what I have seen/not seen on this clock:

1. Appears to made of maple
2. The number 12 appears in pencil in four places:
o On the backboard just below the opening
o On the top center of the front and back plates of the movement
o On the center of the bonnet top back
3. The clicks do not operate as the springs have become corroded
4. The escape wheel is not engaging the rollers as it appears that the adjustment of the rollers has not been made
5. The brass screw that I addressed in a recent post has not been screwed in enough to provide a stop function.
6. The weight must have been dropped; damage showing.
7. The pendulum rod and bob were not with the clock.

Having read the NAWCC posts, PDFs, etc. along with multiple readings of John Anderson's book, I am perplexed as to what this is. I do not believe that it is early due to the rope hooks and I believe that the number 12 just was used to identify pieces that were to go together as part of a manufacturing process. It does appear that there may be some variations of maple wood used within the movement, so was someone rebuilding the works? Has anyone seen this variation of the dial? I am not a woodworker; thus, have to determine what to do with this clock so I appreciate any criticism, suggestions, etc. that you might have including suggestions as to who I might speak to about possible restoration.

Many thanks,
Dick

View attachment 753634 View attachment 753635 View attachment 753636 View attachment 753637 View attachment 753638 View attachment 753639 View attachment 753640 View attachment 753641 View attachment 753642 View attachment 753643 View attachment 753644 View attachment 753645 View attachment 753646

It certainly looks like CAS' work and in fact one of his later "production" clocks of the war years. To me, it does not have the characteristics of his earlier clocks in terms of the movement, case, knurled pin, type of weight pull-up, etc. See my posting of clock # 16 for characteristics of an earlier clock.

His dials, reportedly made from the cardboard used by the laundry who washed his shirts, did have the spirographic decoration that yours has. In fact, look at my posting of clock # 341. It too has spirographic decoration around the center arbor, but it is faded so at first glance looks like it is absent.

Strange that the clock and mounting block (if not a replacement) do not bear his rubber stamp "signature" and and the movement does not have a die stamped # on the outer surface of the back plate. I would still love to see "shots" of the rear outer edge of the wooden dial plate.

I wonder if this was one of the clocks that was in his workshop @ the time of his passing and just never got signed but still made it out into the world?

RM

 

[Troy Livingston]

That clock has had a rough life. I agree with RM that it looks like a later one and had also wondered if it might have been made up from parts at the end of his life or after his death.

Dick, the brass screw is intended to maintain the position of the pallets and is backed out for some reason. Unfortunately your clock has been mistreated and probably has suffered other odd alterations . I agree that the penciled #12 marks may well be a part of the manufacturing process, a means of keeping the parts organized. They probably would have been removed when he finished and signed the movement. The fit and finish of the movement doesn't look that great, it may be the photos (even good photos can be misleading) or it could be from abuse suffered over the years. The clock still has potential and could be a nice clock again but the cost of the repairs may be prohibitive.

Troy

 

[Dick C]

It certainly looks like CAS' work and in fact one of his later "production" clocks of the war years. To me, it does not have the characteristics of his earlier clocks in terms of the movement, case, knurled pin, type of weight pull-up, etc. See my posting of clock # 16 for characteristics of an earlier clock.

His dials, reportedly made from the cardboard used by the laundry who washed his shirts, did have the spirographic decoration that yours has. In fact, look at my posting of clock # 341. It too has spirographic decoration around the center arbor, but it is faded so at first glance looks like it is absent.

Strange that the clock and mounting block (if not a replacement) do not bear his rubber stamp "signature" and and the movement does not have a die stamped # on the outer surface of the back plate. I would still love to see "shots" of the rear outer edge of the wooden dial plate.

I wonder if this was one of the clocks that was in his workshop @ the time of his passing and just never got signed but still made it out into the world?

RM

I cannot find #341 that you reference.

Are these the shots you are looking for?

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

I cannot find #341 that you reference.

Are these the shots you are looking for?

View attachment 753702 View attachment 753703

Clock # 341 is posting # 35. Also see posting # 15 for another dial with spirographic
decoration.

That clock has had a rough life. I agree with RM that it looks like a later one and had also wondered if it might have been made up from parts at the end of his life or after his death.

Dick, the brass screw is intended to maintain the position of the pallets and is backed out for some reason. Unfortunately your clock has been mistreated and probably has suffered other odd alterations . I agree that the penciled #12 marks may well be a part of the manufacturing process, a means of keeping the parts organized. They probably would have been removed when he finished and signed the movement. The fit and finish of the movement doesn't look that great, it may be the photos (even good photos can be misleading) or it could be from abuse suffered over the years. The clock still has potential and could be a nice clock again but the cost of the repairs may be prohibitive.

Troy

Agreed.

RM

 

[Dick C]

Reference my clock as shown in Post #53.

I believe that I have my understanding of the movement under control. However, in order to continue I am now searching for specifications of the pendulum. My intention is to build a rough prototype to get the movement running correctly and then build, or have built, a very good representation of what the pendulum stick and the bob should have been on this clock.

Attached is a rough sketch of what I am seeking, including photos of the top, the front of the bob and the back of the bob showing it attached to the stick.

If any on this board are amenable to providing me with the specifications and photos or are interested in building the correct pendulum stick and bob please contact me via private message to discuss compensation for doing so.

If there are alternative solutions then I would appreciate the leads thereto.

Thanks
Dick

 

[Dick C]

Reference this weight. Upon examination of the split it appears that there isn't a piece missing. The center is either offset from being dropped or it has expanded and split the wood. Both sides do match up at the split.

Do I need to remove the bottom cap in order to get at the inside?

Does anyone know what the material within the outer structure might be? It appears to be a material like Putnam's Water Putty; however, it is gray on the outside. When a small projection was scraped it is a shade of white inside.

Thanks again,
Dick

 

[Dick C]

Reference this weight. Upon examination of the split it appears that there isn't a piece missing. The center is either offset from being dropped or it has expanded and split the wood. Both sides do match up at the split.

Do I need to remove the bottom cap in order to get at the inside?

Does anyone know what the material within the outer structure might be? It appears to be a material like Putnam's Water Putty; however, it is gray on the outside. When a small projection was scraped it is a shade of white inside. View attachment 754205 View attachment 754206 View attachment 754207

Thanks again,
Dick

Thanks to an expert, he identified the material as lead and believes that the wood might have had significant shrinkage creating the crack.

The weight, as shown, weighs 3 pounds 12.9 oz.

So this project is on hold until I can obtain the specifications for the rod and bob as I presented in Post #58.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you

 

[Dick C]

Thanks to an expert, he identified the material as lead and believes that the wood might have had significant shrinkage creating the crack.

The weight, as shown, weighs 3 pounds 12.9 oz.

So this project is on hold until I can obtain the specifications for the rod and bob as I presented in Post #58.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you

Upon further inspection of this weight I have been able to remove the outer wood structure to reveal this severely corroded lead weight.

I have also read other articles with regard to corrosion of lead and believe that this item must have been in an unsuitable environment.

Now the question is how does one safely remove the corrosion to get down to the lead piece. A couple of scratches in the grey area has shown shiny lead.

 

[Jim DuBois]

Yeah, that is some pretty nasty corrosion. Not certain what would cause that sort of issue. Having cast a lot of weights over a long time, I have never had such a problem, and while I am not a materials expert, I suspect the weight has some serious contaminates in it. We have had 300-year-old lead weights and none of them have ever exhibited such anomalies. It looks more like some zinc was in the mix as it tends to behave badly over time when exposed to environmental contaminants. Some 200 +/- years old lead weights seen here and none of them have any such acne.

 

[Dick C]

Yeah, that is some pretty nasty corrosion. Not certain what would cause that sort of issue. Having cast a lot of weights over a long time, I have never had such a problem, and while I am not a materials expert, I suspect the weight has some serious contaminates in it. We have had 300-year-old lead weights and none of them have ever exhibited such anomalies. It looks more like some zinc was in the mix as it tends to behave badly over time when exposed to environmental contaminants. Some 200 +/- years old lead weights seen here and none of them have any such acne.

View attachment 755790

Here is an article from the Internet associating different types of wood with lead corrosion. In this case could it also be that the lead being encased in wood and possibly in the environment suggested was a cause?

Corrosion of metals associated with wood - Victoria and Albert Museum

Wood and metal are usually regarded as highly compatible materials. However, interactions between certain metals and woods can take place under adverse conditions, or as a result of using unsuitable materials.

www.vam.ac.uk

Here is another showing bullets that have corroded, having been stored in an oak case

Badly corroded bullets - should I throw away?

What are your thoughts on this? That collection I bought (improperly stored in an oak case) has much worse corrosion on the lead bullets than I hoped. See pictures, but the bullets are very badly corroded. Should I just throw these away? I’m not really sure I want them in my collection...

forum.cartridgecollectors.org

 

[Jim DuBois]

Dick, that is good information to have. Lead corrosion is a possible result of moisture in some cases and contact with wood in others. I have noticed the problem much like they show on the ammunition found in wood boxes or old drawers. But, never on clock weights. I have only owned two of the Smith timepieces, I like them, and neither showed any problems with their weights. I have seen a few more and repaired one IIRC. But, your weight wooden shell suggests it was made of wood that was still very moist. Otherwise, it would not have shrunk by 3/8" or so. And at the same time, the lead expanded. So, we have both moisture and tannic acid/sugar and other wood moisture components as contributing factors, not to mention what else might be in the lead itself.

Regarding your timepiece weight, I would treat it as possibly toxic since we don't know what materials may be mixed in the lead. It is not uncommon to find arsenic, mercury, bismuth, and trace amounts of other materials in old lead. I think I have read that Smith made his own bullets as he was an avid shooter, mostly of woodchucks, and he used old batteries as a lead source. Might be remaining sulfur components in the lead?

Since the lead portion of the weight is not normally seen, my recommendation is to repair the wood shell as best possible and have a new lead insert cast to fit the diameter and depth of the shell following repairs. I can certainly cast up a new insert if you decide that is what you want to do.