The best 12 size watch

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Tom McIntyre, Feb 15, 2007.

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  1. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    Jan 8, 2006
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    My Illinois 439 has a very similar case and the same hands as Jerry's but a plainer dial.
     

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  2. Jim Carroll

    Jim Carroll Registered User
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    Probably not in the best category more in the rarity, only few of the 50 Aluminium 525 grade made have been accounted for.
     

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  3. Johnny Soporno

    Johnny Soporno New Member

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    #53 Johnny Soporno, Sep 9, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
    I have the other one! ;)

    Here's my 21j 12s E. Howard Watch Co., (pat'd 08), in an original E. Howard 14k case - and up until reading that you had one also, I thought I must own the only one! ;)

    As near as I can tell, the case is called Keystone Howard's "The Tudor" (solid gold "Swing Ring" open-face format) designed for it's "Extra Thin" line of 12 size movements (with approximately 14s dials!)

    It is the most accurate mechanical watch I've ever owned, it gains about 1 second every two days. (Which is quite a bit better than my Rolex Submariner 16613, which loses a couple of seconds a day!)

    81.jpg
    (MUCH higher resolution version here: http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6066/6130551557_8d89c78b97_o.jpg)


    Its S/N is 1120368 - (within a range which I can't find any record of anywhere!)

    Any insights would be appreciated!

    Johnny
     
  4. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Ed and I have been collecting Keystone-Howard serial numbers vs. descriptions for close to twenty years now. Judging by other watches listied in our data base, this seems to be from a run of mixed 23-jewel and 21-jewel, 12-size movements from 1120001 - 1121000.

    There is a smaller mixed run in the range of 1067601 - 1068000 and another mixed run (including 17-jewel and 19-jewel movements) 1105701 - 110700.

    There may be more, and there may be clearer definition of the split in the runs. Neither Ed nor I have paid all that much attention to the 12-size watches.
     
  5. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Aug 24, 2000
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    I agree that the 21J are uncommon in 12 size. Maybe those with exposed Geneva and HC in 21J are a bit more uncommon. :D
     

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  6. Keith H

    Keith H Registered User

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    Here is my 12 size Maximus, interesting only 5 away from the serial number on Toms
     

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  7. Johnny Soporno

    Johnny Soporno New Member

    Jul 31, 2011
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    Do you have any other serial numbers from that range for 21s you might share with us?

    I'm trying to get as good an idea as possible of just how rare this particular movement really is?
    I've been perusing the vintage ads from the period (1908-1912 or so) since prior to this unit's patent date ('08) the only 12 sized 21-jewel units were private-labelled Walthams?

    185.jpg vs 81.jpg

    Again, a MUCH higher resolution version can be found http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6066/6130551557_8d89c78b97_o.jpg

    Bigots! ;)

    Johnny
     
  8. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    21 - 1,120,132
    21 - 1,120,176
    23 - 1,120,180
    21 - 1,120,292
    23 - 1,120,330
    23 - 1,120,368 - Just Added
    23 - 1,120,378
    21 - 1,120,407
    21 - 1,120,432
    21 - 1,120,461
    21 - 1,120,543
    23 - 1,120,594
    21 - 1,120,634
    23 - 1,120,955
    21 - 1,120,986
    23 - 1,120,990


    I can't find a higher resolution version of the 16-size watch in your picture.


    *********************

    Perhaps, but what are the serial numbers of the 12-size, 21-jewel or 23-jewel Keystone-Howard watches that you have come up with?

    Best regards,
     
  9. Tom Huber

    Tom Huber Registered User
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    Kent, For your data base. I have 23J Keystone Howard, 12S, SN 1,172,918.

    It is in a YGF case with a Keystone logo--not marked Howard WAtch Co.

    Tom
     
  10. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Thanks Tom!
     
  11. Dano4734

    Dano4734 Registered User

    my 21 Jeweled Illinois size 12. The little watch keeps better than RR time. I love it. I wish I could find a new dial however.
    -> posts merged by system <-
    been carrying this watch everyday. Love it
     

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  12. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Yes, Illinois made many lovely 12-size watches.

    Johnny - the Waltham you show in your post (#57) was based on Waltham's bridge model but was specially finished for a contract with Howard. These were also sold with the Waltham name, but were already being phased out. In the 1908-1912 time period Illinois offered a 21-jewel grade 299, Rockford offered a 21-jewel grade 310/315, and Hampden had a 21-jewel John Hancock. Elgin had already phased out their 21-jewel 12-size models (grades 236 & 237). Waltham listed their Maximus and American Watch Co. grades with 21 jewels in 1908 but by 1912 they were only listing the 23-jewel Riverside Maximus.

    Here is an example of the 21-jewel Illinois grade 299. These were lovely movements.
     
  13. visitor

    visitor Registered User

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    This is another nice waltham maximus 1894 23 jewels with solidarity 14K case. My only concern is the wrong hands that i should change..:rolleyes:
     

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  14. Johnny Soporno

    Johnny Soporno New Member

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    Kent, the serial number you've just added was for my 21J model, but you seem to have it listed as a 23J? Or am I missing something?

    138.jpg

    According to this ad, my Howard 12s 21J is a model #835 :)

    However, I still have NO CLUE as to how many of them ever existed, because to this moment I have not yet been able to find even one other like it? (This one in the photo Tom posted (#37) is certainly similar, though clearly an earlier rendition!)

    I have found several Waltham units which appear to have been hand-engraved with the Howard moniker, like the one I'd included in the previous post. I'll repost it here: (It is a 12s, not a 16s as you appeared to have believed?)

    185.jpg <=== (This should expand to high-res when you click it, if I've done this right this time! :))


    Like the ad copy above suggests, the 21, 19, and 17 Jewel movements look essentially identical, excepting the distinctive details cast into the metal... Here's a photo for comparison of my 21J and my 12s 17J (pat '12) model (S/N 1,303,887):

    139.jpg (This one also should expand to high-res when clicked!)

    In any event, thanks Kent & everyone for the feedback! I'm going to stick with my vote for the 21J 12s Howard as the best size 12, since I love the larger '14 size' dial, and the fact that it is remains accurate to about 1/2 a second a day!

    Johnny Soporno
    Newbie Watch Collector
     
  15. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    No, you didn't miss anything. Thanks for catching my error.
     
  16. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I like the 12 size E. Howard Watch Co. watches also, but I think the Walthams are higher quality. I especially like the 12 size with the exposed Geneva stop works.
     

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  17. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Tom:

    What's the serial number of the 21-jewel movement? I can't quite read it.

    Thanks,
     
  18. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Kent, it is 1066941. I need to make some better pictures of it. It is in J. Boss Extra marked E. Howard Watch Co. marked case. The case sn is 8452309 which should be close to correct, but, of course I assembled the set.
     
  19. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Thanks Tom!
     
  20. rrpktwatcher

    rrpktwatcher Registered User
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    #70 rrpktwatcher, Nov 10, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2011
    Re: The best 12 size watch (Scarce)

    Please reference posts #21 & #23 (above) by Tom & Jerry ;), respectively:

    Waltham, 1894 Colonial Series (14-size front plate/12-size back plate), A.W.W. Co., 23j, Riverside Maximus, sn-17040087 (#87 in only one run of 100), 14k signed hunter case, ca. 1912. *Note: FYI - Colonial Series production numbers are not included in the 1894, Maximus tables in the NAWCC Info/Data Storage.

    Please excuse photo quality :sour:
     

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