The Barraud Dynasty

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Tom McIntyre, Aug 17, 2016.

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  1. PJQL

    PJQL Registered User

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    Tom,

    Yes please !......I would be much obliged. I had originally intended to edit and correctly rotate the second photo'....but it went

    somewhat awry :-/

    I'm not that familiar with the complex mechanics shown on the dial plate.....some guidance would be much appreciated.

    Regards

    PIers
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Piers,

    This looks like the usual B&L "best quality fusee keyless" system, in which the rocking bar is held by its springs out of engagement with both winding and setting modes. There are two pins mounted in the case band, one for each function, rather than the more commonly seen one, so that the crown, (and the pendant), can revolve freely. The one on the left in your picture is setting and the other one on the right is for winding.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    One is signed for Henry Daniel of Liverpool in an 1815 case, another is signed for D & W Morice in an 1817 case, and another is signed for James Edwards in an 1818 case.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  4. MartyR

    MartyR Registered User
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    I can only contribute a Savage in a James McCabe dated 1833 - visually the watch is a very characteristic unexceptional McCabe.

    Tom, the Barraud I posted earlier with the male key in the pendant is an "Improved" model. I have made an enigmatic entry in my database which says ""Impd" denoting the "Improved" model which the firm mentions in Horological Telegraphy 1876" ... but now I don't recall what I meant by that :???:
     
  5. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #55 Omexa, Aug 24, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
    Hi, I knew I had one like Allan's movement somewhere, it is not a Savage 2 pin. Who are "A & G"? 1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg Regards Ray
     

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  6. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    "Abbott & Garnett, Farnworth", England From Mikrolisk. Regards Ray
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    I guess it could be, but Farnworth is just to the NW of Manchester and some 25 miles NE of Prescot, which seems something of a trek from the main centre of production. Mikrolisk has no date or type of business for this mark. Unfortunately, the great majority of these frame makers' marks remain unattributed.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  8. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Graham,

    I gave the Savage to my watch repairer, who liked it. Now there is always a method in my madness, this all started years ago, I wanted someone over here (And local if poss) to repair my English watches.
    I was recomened to my repairer, (By the DGC) who told me he new nothing much about English pocket watches. Though I knew his main business was repairing chronometers, and of course pocket chronometers-he loves Frodsham. So I told him my watches were really little chronometers-he laught too. We went from there. He is now very interested in early Lever watches made in the UK. By the way he has a Loesby from me at the moment. When I bought it I thought I had THE Loseby- not so it was made by his father, an early STR HM B1825. (Edward Loseby was born 1822)When I get it back next month I will post photographs and tell you more about Loseby.

    Allan.
     
  9. John Pavlik

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    Referencing my post #37 regarding the trapezoid roller jewel.. Thanks to Graham, he directed me to David Pennys Antique Watch Site, Mr. Penny had a description for this type of escapement on a previous owned movement. I exchanged the photos with David and he confirmed my movement escapement was one in the same. He graciously has given me permission to use his description to shed light on its history and use.

    David Penny's Description :

    NB: This most interesting and misunderstood form of lever escapement, often incorrectly referred to as a "modified Savage," has, as far as we know, nothing to do with the work of George Savage. It has a history that appears to be as early as both the Massey and Savage forms and examples continued to be used, very rarely, into the second half of the 19th century. All examples known to me have draw, often but not always with gold levers, and are of the very best work as in this fine movement. This famous firm were one of the few that commissioned this form of lever escapement and, seeing how very well these truly fine escapements were always set up and finished, its use was obviously rare, even for Barraud.

    Thanks David !
     
  10. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    That's good news. David Penney's website is an invaluable resource, especially his archive, but we must be careful to observe the protocols in both this MB and his site when referencing pieces there. In this case, David's permission was very correctly sought and granted. He can be very helpful on technical matters, and has referred me to one of his restorers to answer a detailed query on occasion, although more general questions involving research will often attract consultancy fees.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  11. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    #61 Tom McIntyre, Aug 27, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
    Although I do not own one of the badges that were used to mark the dials of the compensated chronometers, Jonathan was kind enough to send some images. I think the Admiralty Foul Anchor badge was the one that would have been used. However, the horde also includes appropriately sized Order of the Garter badges. One or the other of these would have replaced the crescent like fixture on the dial if used in Royal Navy service.

    compensation_foul_anchorr_badge.jpg compensation_garter_badge.jpg
     
  12. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Tom,
    I think it might help here if you told us the Lupton story, and why Nicole & Neilson used them. Plus a translation of the Latin for those like me who never went to school.

    regards,
    Allan.
     
  13. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I do not recall mentioning Nicole & Nielson in this context. Jagger's supplement has the story of Lupton in some detail. I used Wikipedia to learn a bit more about the badges. The Garter is The Order of the Garter. It has a number of interesting stories of its origin.

    I was browsing the Internet sales site and noticed a Barraud watch in a bit of distress that seemed to bring a rather respectable value. From the serial number it appeared to be an early duplex from the first series. The seller did not know how to swing out the movement, so it was selling blind unless one of our English colleagues went by to take a look at it.

    Perhaps one of the participants here was the one who purchased it. I would like to see what the movement looks like if possible.
     
  14. novicetimekeeper

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    One is Norman not Latin, it is the inscription on the garter on the Royal coat of arms of the UK Sovereign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honi_soit_qui_mal_y_pense

    The other is Latin for seal of the office of the Lord High Admiral which is an Admiralty seal of the Royal Navy.
     
  15. Rich Newman

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    I see a few pictures of Barraud clocks on this message board thread.

    This one made by Paul Philip Barraud, Cornhill, London, Number 753, ca. 1815 that has two signatures.

    Its an eight day Regency rosewood & mahogany break-arch bracket clock. Works are signed by Barraud ("Barraud's Cornhill London") on the back plate and Holmden, the movement maker, on the front plate. This clock helped validate the fact that respected English makers were often retailers that utilized movements made by others. John George Holmden is known to have supplied clocks to some of the best London retailers of the period including the firm Vulliamy.
     

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  16. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Thanks for the post Rich. The name of the firm was Barrauds at that time, not the possessive form. That is the second name in the progression over the years and denotes that the sons had passed their training and had joined the firm. Later Lund joined the firm and then Lund's sons. The full set of names were:

    Barraud (1750)
    Barrauds (1809)
    Barrauds & Lund (1838)
    Barraud & Lund (1844)
    Barraud & Lunds (1864)

    Several generations of both families. Changes of business premises also help to date the items they appear on.
     
  17. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    According to Jagger Barrauds Cornhill was 1810-1820. Paulp Philliph died in in 1820.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  18. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #68 Allan C. Purcell, Oct 5, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2016
    Hi Tom, Hi Graham,

    This is a barrauds Cornhill pocket watch in a silver case HM 1869. The top plat as the No. 9315. This would date the watch to c1819. (See Jagger)
    The photographs depict I think a Lever escapement. Could it be a conversion, and the bimetalic balance added at the same time?? I believe the case was guilded at some time
    still good on the inside of the case.
    Regards,
    Allan.



    s-83600.jpg






    $_888.JPG $_567.JPG $_578.JPG
     
  19. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I would expect the balance to be a later upgrade the lever is appropriate for the period. The original balance would have been a plain flat brass balance.

    The Savage 2 pin I posted earlier is a lower number at 8816. I also own 7044 that was once owned by the Bond family in Boston. It may be a lever also, but I have not removed the dust ring to see. :) I have been awfully busy lately.
    IMG_0645.JPG IMG_0644.JPG IMG_0649.JPG IMG_0646.JPG IMG_0647.JPG IMG_0651.JPG IMG_0652.JPG
     
  20. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    The case (by Woodman?) appears to be 1810, which conflicts with the movement style rather, and makes a lever of any kind unlikely . . .

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  21. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #71 Allan C. Purcell, Oct 8, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Graham,

    The photographs of 9315 were sent to me because there were none on the for sale site. I wanted to buy the watch, but not without knowing what kind of escapement it had.
    The seller then asked what was I looking for, and I told him not a lever, maybe a Duplex or a Savage. The next I know he took it off the site-then wrote to say he was going to get it fixed. (Whatever that meant). Two days later it was back on the site for one hundred more. (450) The odd thing is the case HM is for 1869 the O with the corners cut off. So re-cased and then the original escapement changed too??

    Going onto Tom's Barraud above-it is nice to know or see the ring dust cap-could barraud have been the first??

    Best wishes,

    Allan.
     
  22. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    If this is a species of lever at the date on the case it would be quite a turnup, but I think this hints at a conversion from a verge, that is if it isn't still one:

    IMG_0651_crop.jpg

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  23. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, I see what you mean, you don't miss much. I hope that my John Percival does not turn out to once being a Verge? I don't think there would be enough space between the Plates to fit the Verge set-up. Good news about the Coat of Arms makes up for any problems. The Jno Percival should be in Australia by now, but can take longer to get to Darwin than to get from UK to Australia. Regards Ray
     
  24. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I am at the Ward Francillon Time Symposium at Winterthur at the moment but when I get home, I will work up my nerve to take a look inside. That will not be before the 11th.
     
  25. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    Thanks, it will be interesting to see what's under there.

    I notice that the cock foot overlays the beginning of the signature slightly, (red), and the fusee square is very tight up to it as well, (green). Both point to a replacement balance cock slightly wider than the original. I'd also like to know what that symbol by the regulator scale means, if anything, (blue).

    IMG_0651_crop2.jpg

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  26. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The symbol by the regulator scale looks to be a later addition and I do not know the intended meaning.

    I have not seen an "all brass" verge from Barraud.

    Here are my verges and other first series movements. The Savage shown before is 8816 and dated 1815. I will have to look at this further when I get home.

    movement.jpg Movement.jpg 5648 mvt.jpg 7281 mvt.jpg 7816 mvt.jpg
     
  27. Omexa

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  28. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Here is a Barrauds duplex movement of about the same vintage as Tom's 8816 (Savage) (1815, or possibly 1816 in my case), with the same brass balance and the same screwed construction.

    Tom's watch, while thoroughly modern in many ways, must have one of the last 'beetle' hour-hands ever made! Unfortunately my movement has no dial.

    Oliver Mundy.

    barraud_back_01.jpg
     
  29. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Oliver,

    They're still being made today, even as we speak!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  30. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    I have an 18th century watch that would look much better with a nice pair of beetle and poker hands instead of the gilt ones :)

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     
  31. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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  32. Tom McIntyre

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    I am back home from Delaware but will need a trip to the bank to look at the watch I have not yet opened. Of the 5 watches shown here, the two (2432 and 4534) with the carved cocks are verges, the "all brass" with the fancy cock (5648) is a cylinder, the next all brass (7816) is a verge and the last one (7280) is a cylinder. There are no obvious differences between the 1st series and the 2nd series "all brass" so I guess I would expect to see the same pattern there. i.e. the design is independent of the escapement.

    Clearly, 7816 refutes my remark above that I had not seen an "all brass" verge. I have had the movement for a while now. :confused:
     
  33. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Of course I should have said 'apart from modern re-creations'. ('Reproduction' is too vulgar a word for the work Graham does, as I have good reason to know.)

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  34. Tom McIntyre

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    Well, I do not have a groundbreaking discovery. The watch in question has a verge escapement. It is a little unusual in that there are a pair of stops that catch the pin in the rim of the balance and limit it to 240 deg of excursion. The stops are both sturdy bits of gold looking wire and look like an addition to the watch to me.

    I wonder if the strange sigil near the regulator scale is a signature for the person who added the improvement.

    The finish inside the plates is very nice and this is a really classy verge but it is not currently running. Given the condition, I suspect that one of the dust ring screws, which appears to be missing is stuck in the mechanism. I am too clumsy to take it down, so I will need to take it to one of my watch repairmen to have it corrected.

    Here are close ups of the "sigil" design and the outboard stop pin. The inboard one is hidden by the balance cock but is a pin set into the top plate standing more or less straight up. The pin in the rim of the balance is seen just above the F in Fast.
    sigil.jpg amplimitright.jpg bankingpin.jpg
     
  35. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    These modifications to the balance banking aren't unusual, but the radial pin in the rim should originally have banked on the cock foot; these pins in the top plate are likely to be just rather crude solutions to a problem which a repairer thought he had. Earlier verges usually used one or other of the flags banking on a pin in the potence or in the top plate aperture.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  36. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I am familiar with the normal banking on the potence or the balance cock. The difference here is that the allowed angle is rather smaller and could be used to keep the pallets safe from interference. The fixes do not look clumsy, but I doubt we will ever know what was in the person's mind.

    The watch was handled by the Bonds of Boston and could have been in their possession for most of its life.
     
  37. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The "Hanging Detent"

    This is my most recent Barraud acquisition. I had been wanting one for several years since seeing an example on David Penney's web site that sold before I could raise the funds for it.

    The watch looks rather more exotic than it actually is. Instead of having the watch joint to the case at the top where it normally is found on English watches, it is moved to the bottom and the dial is reversed. Thus the seconds indicator is at the top of the dial and the slot to open the bezel is also at the top.

    We think there was a theory that having the detent in a hanging position rather than standing on its attachment to the plate would improve the performance and perhaps reliability of the watch. There are a few of these signed Barrauds Cornhill London and there may be some with other names. This watch was almost certainly made by Pennington and has many of his features including the early form of the balance. It appears to be in its original case with an 1814 hallmark. These pictures are from the auction house. I will try to add some of the escapement later.

    dial.jpg front.jpg inner back.jpg inner front.jpg movement.jpg oouter back.jpg outer mark.jpg
     
  38. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Tom, very nice really classy Pocket Watch. It has the same Dial set-up as the John Percival that has at last got to Australia but not yet to me. It takes more time to get from Sydney to Darwin than to get to Australia from the UK. Regards Ray 1.jpg
     
  39. Tom McIntyre

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    Ray, do you know if the mounting joint on yours is under the 6:00 position?
     
  40. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Tom, I will know all about it next week when it arrives, it looks like it fits in like an American 18 size movement. Regards Ray 2.jpg
     
  41. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    I take it the watch as not arrived yet-I am looking forward to seeing it.

    Best wishes,

    Allan.
     
  42. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    This post is just a pointer for those here who do not read the clock forums. I just received Barraud, Cornhill 931.

    I think I am going to like it a lot.
     
  43. SKennedy

    SKennedy Registered User

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    Well, if that is still the case it is something I can help with. Barrauds 2/2086. This was a bit of a wreck when I got it, no bezel, broken hands, broken hinge, broken top verge pivot, worn out escape wheel etc. Came up good though with all of that done - a bit of a personal folly. The case is hallmarked for 1826 which is entirely consistent with Jagger's list.

    The verge runs in screwed in hole (and cap) jewel settings top and bottom. There are other signs of a quality finish too. DOuble clicks in the fusee and a snailed finish on the minute wheel which is retained with a pin.
    The other interesting thing is the two case springs for the front, which are screwed into place in the front dome itself and bear on the flat of the case middle near the hinge. One is original and cracked so doesn't work well. The other was broken off altogether except for the screwed mount so I made a new one so the dome pops open OK. I've not come across this springing arrangement in another case as yet.

    The final photo is me checking the time with it while stood on Cornhill on the pavement pretty much where the Barrauds shop was - Royal Exchange in the background.

    Regards,
    Seth

    _MG_2547.jpg _MG_2555.jpg IMG_4143.jpg IMG_4144.jpg IMG_20151119_145803_570.jpg
     
  44. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Seth-Great job on that watch-I noticed 2/2185 while looking for your watch No. 2/2086. The was in the first Chamberlain collection. So it is not in Jagger so I will add it too my Barraud File. Thank you for showing the watch. I too stood on the corner there in 2013, I needed a bank, and Barclys is just to your left.Best Allan.
     
  45. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Tom- I cannot read the full addres-Best Allan. in a rush.
     
  46. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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  47. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I Tom-Thank you for the big pic- later I found Rays Gazette piece, and now now it is and was P-P-B´s Daddy. Then it all came back. Has you know I am re-writing my Barraud file from ground up, I only have 12 pages yet-I think I could be finnished by Christmas. Will need help of course, I will be in touch. Best Allan.
     
  48. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Barwise 7361 c1816/17. David Thompson AHS Autumn 1998.Only arrived here last week. Best Allan
     
  49. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    That is getting pretty close. I take it that the date letter is the lower case a. I wonder who Charles K Mallory was and the significance of the 1816 date on the back of my watch.
    Hallmark.jpg BackOuter.jpg
     
  50. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    upload_2018-3-14_15-17-22.png

    Who knows?

    John
     

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