The Barraud Dynasty

[Tom McIntyre]

[pdf]457502[/pdf] just trying, i think i have it now, only the Roskell file is on my other computor will get it sorted. Will this do for now.
Regards,

Allan.

Allan, the pdf file you attached above is Barraud material, and quite interesting, I might add.

It references several items from my Barraud collection site, but is not complete. In addition, I have a fairly large number of items that have not been added to the site because I am in the process of renovating and moving it. The current material is best found at http://awco.org/European/Barraud/barraud.htm. There is also a presentation on Barraud in the list of presentations at Index of /present.

Perhaps we should explore and solicit more Barraud information in another thread.

Let's have a new thread on the Barraud dynasty based on Alan's interesting article. There is a fairly large album here on the Message Board with more Barraud & Lund material.
https://mb.nawcc.org/album.php?albumid=585.

 

[MartyR]

I'll start with an example of Lund's famous patented invention - the "cunningly disguised key".



The watch is hallmark dated to 1872 which is two years after Lund's patent. The "stem" is of course a male key which fits into the female "arbours" for winding and hand-setting. The date perhaps gives some clues to the date at which English watchmakers finally gave way to keyless winding. The fact that Lund felt it important to patent a device for permitting a watch to be keywound whilst looking exactly like a stemwind demonstrates clearly the conservatism of the English buying public! Even 50 years after Arnold's successful implementation of a keyless winding system, the market for keywinds remained strong!

 

[Omexa]

Hi Martin, I really like it; a lovely Pocket Watch. "Could this be considered an English Fake?" Just Joking. Regards Ray

 

[MartyR]

Isn't it strange how you ntoice new things when you go back and browse your collection?

I had never noticed the functional connection between the watch I posted above, and the one below - a transitional wind watch, both keywind and stemwind, dating to 1884 which is a full 12 years after the Lund patent watch above.



The hand are pin set using the winding stem (you can just see the shoulder at 11 o'clock), or alternatively keyset through the cuvette. To wind the watch from the stem, you depress the button in the rim at 1 o'clock and turn the stem anti-clockwise, presumably to mimic the wind using a key through the cuvette.

This seems to me a great deal of over-engineering to achieve a dubious result ... but perhaps another example of Barrauds ingenuity.

Very interestingly, Jagger's Appendix lists the serial number one greater than mine which he describes as a keyless with double roller.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

One of my favorite Barraud & Lund watches is this second series 2/9993 which is free sprung with nice engraving on the barrel and cock. The setting is essentially the same as Marty's example with female winding arbors. It also has the up/down feature. Many of my gold Barraud & Lund watches have the date letter rubbed out for reasons I have not been able to determine. It is more common on them than other English watches from the period, but I believe this watch was made in the mid 1870's.

This feature was also used on low priced watches marked Lund Brothers, which was Barraud & Lund's economy line of English watches.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Here is a picture for puzzling. Please note the address on the movement. I believe I also have the original case. This is one of the pieces that is motivating me to rework my web site. The serial number is 3009.

 

[Omexa]

Hi Tom, this is from a Free Google Ebook. Regards Ray

 

[MartyR]

One of my favorite Barraud & Lund watches is this second series 2/9993 which is free sprung with nice engraving on the barrel and cock. The setting is essentially the same as Marty's example with female winding arbors. It also has the up/down feature. Many of my gold Barraud & Lund watches have the date letter rubbed out for reasons I have not been able to determine. It is more common on them than other English watches from the period, but I believe this watch was made in the mid 1870's.

Lovely watch, Tom

Is not the balance cock in an unusual position, directly under the pendant? And the cock also seems mor angled away from the perpendicular than usual.

Your comment about the rubbed date letter is fascinating. I have a watch whose serial number 3/1802 dates to about 1869, but it is in a case hallmarked 1823!!!! The inside back cover has the date letter rubbed, but the inner hallmark is complete. I can't explain th apparent recase in a much older case, not why one date letter should be so badly rubbed



I also have one example of that engraved floating barrel cover - the engraving is beautiful, and the opposite of the austere style that I have generally ascribed to Barraud movements.



This one is dated 1876 and has a wind indicator. The dial has that blue-grey look of a Willis, and although I quite like the hands I cannot but suspect that they are replacements.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

What free book was that please Tom do you want photographs of Barraud Cronometers-or is this just Barraud & Lund? I like the above Photograph, first time I have seen a watch from Paul-Philip's Daddy.

Regards,

Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Tom,
639 is not in the list I published yesturday, so i thought you would like a look. It is still fitted with an Arnold Z balance, but has a Earnshaw Spring detent. It is eight day though the case is very small. (17cm x17cm x 17.5cm) almost square.

Regards,

Allan.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

What free book was that please Tom do you want photographs of Barraud Cronometers-or is this just Barraud & Lund? I like the above Photograph, first time I have seen a watch from Paul-Philip's Daddy.

Regards,

Allan.

I was looking for anything from the Francis Gabriel descendants and their partners, the Lunds.

The Wine Office Court, Fleet Street watch is an Earnshaw chronometer. I suspect it was made for F. G. by Earnshaw since F.G. was not a member of the Clockmakers Company. This watch is the only example I have seen that could reasonably be attributed to him. I will try to post pictures of the rest of the watch soon.

Regarding the early 8 day chronometer, David Penney remarked that he thought this one might be a rework also. I have not seen others from the miniature 8 day group. This one is marked for the 2nd series 2/717.

View attachment 313091 View attachment 313092

View attachment 313091 View attachment 313092

 

[Omexa]

Hi Tom and Allan, here is where it is from; 599 pages of all sorts of information. Regards Ray

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Tom,
First thanks to Omexa for the Gentleman's Magazine found it on page 259 has he says. I think David Penney could be right, though P.P.Barraud was a shrewd business man. I dont think Earnshaw would have worked for him after the debattle in court, but Barraud would have known that Earnshaws Detent was the better of the two, though still keeping Arnolds Z balance. Matters little-the chances of owning one of the first hundred are limited to say the least. I think if I remember correctly only about three are still original. I had the Luck to be at Greenwich in 2013, and Jonathan Betts had them all in layed out in the workshop. (The one Greenwich have) Yes I took photographs, I will dig them out. Do you think that is OK

 

[MartyR]

I had the Luck to be at Greenwich in 2013, and Jonathan Betts had them all in layed out in the workshop. (The one Greenwich have) Yes I took photographs, I will dig them out. Do you think that is OK

You must ask the RMM for permission, Allan. I recall a visit to the British Museum with DrJon where he took scores of photos ... and the Curator was very firm about those not being published anywhere. And he said that no exceptional permission would ever be given - as a matter of Museum policy!

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thats what I wanted to hear-thank you MartyR. You will all have to pop over and look at the photographs.

Regards,
Allan

 

[MartyR]

You will all have to pop over and look at the photographs.

Hey, that sounds like a party invitation

 

[Dr. Jon]

Two things:

1) I had a great time with MartyR and the curator at the British Museum. I copied all my photos to them. I was interested in early lever watches.

2) Regarding Barraud and Barraud and Lund: It seems to me from my limited observations that they used diamond end stones on balances a lot less often than most others on their top level watches.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

If you want to use images from the British Museum, you need to get them to publish them on their web site. Those and the accompanying curator notes are freely usable with attribution according to the site language. I use quite a bit of their material in my presentations.

Since Jonathan has retired, I do not know whom you would contact for permission from the RMM.

I suspect their reluctance to let third party material be published may be concern for the quality. Dr. Jon's approach of giving them the assets could result in publication, but they probably still prefer their own photography.

I took a quick look at the watches on my site and there are 9 with diamond end stones but all fairly early. The very best of the later ones have ruby end stones.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

I was over again at Greenwich this summer, and the chap now in charge is Rory McEvoy. He very kindly took our party round the exhibition. The poor man is now alone up there, and though he would never admit it, I think it is too much for one man to cope with. Jonathan Betts is now retired to Salisbury and I gave him a ring to ask about his book on chronometers, he told me it was now with the publisher in Oxford and should be available in 2017



The two photographs above are left Rory McEvoy and right a piece I dont think I can get into trouble with- he asked us all if we knew anything about it, we had one or two guesses-I thought it might be French, but that was only because of the heads on the frame, maybe one of you might be able to help?? If you do know please write to Rory at Greenwich, but only if you know.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Thanks for the reminder. He was over here for a talk in Connecticut and gave another at Skinner's auction house in Marlboro, but I was out of town and missed it.

I think that Cdr. Peter Linstead-Smith, OBE Royal Navy, is still handling some of the inquiries regarding the Chronometer Records.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Yes Peter-Linstead Smith OBE. is there each Thursday, and is very good, and very helpful when it comes to chromometers. The problem with many chronometers as far has their history goes, is they were bought by private indivdules, like a captain of a ship wanted one of his own, or people who wanted to find the longitude for them-selves, there were also private people who wanted one on their desk, and carry out timekeeping tests of their own. These then were not recorded . When the "Beagle" set sail with Darwin the ship carried 24 chronometers and those belonged to Greewich or should we say the Admiralty, but there were others onboard.The one that turned out best was No.1 by William Edward Frodsham.

Anyway thats got nothing to do with this thread, so here are a few photographs of my Barraud and Lund 2/3178. Very small and very thin for a watch hallmarked for 1837 London. The last two photographs show it compared to a Barwise of 1830. It is a STR with a flat balance wheel that is guilded. I had a identicle watch with this flat balance only it was a Savage two pin, that was brocken, one of the pins was missing half its length.

Regards,

Allan

 

[MartyR]

That's another lovely watch, Allan, in what I descirbed earlier as Barraud's "austere style" It certainly looks unusually thin for 1830s, and you have now determined me to start recording the depth of all my watches to see if I can correlate depth against date!!!

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I was gathering up the Barraud movements and silver watches this afternoon and one of them is essentially identical to Alan's above. It is 2/4379 and is hallmarked for London 1845.

I also have chronometer to add to your list. 1720 is equipped with Lund's Correcting Weight and seems to be intact in its box. The badge expected to be on the dial has been replaced by a gold bowl shaped device.

xyzzytom_188400

The integral winder makes it a bit of effort to get good pictures of the movement. I will take more shots later. The pictures of the correcting weight with the cover off is one that was taken several years ago shortly after the piece was bought from South America.

The movements and small watch are in the attachment below.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Marty thank you for the kind words, but if you do has you say you will be pulling your hair out after a short while.

Please look at the photographs and I think you will see what I trying to explain. (The Barraud is the first on the left). I can of course give you all the details of these watches, but that won't help.
I had thought that these watches were for the ladies, but not so, it appears from c1830 to c1850 to be the fashion. After 1850 they seem to get larger again.
The little movement is a Roskell Cylinder 9707 I will put the photographs in the Roskell tread.

Regards,
Allan

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Tom, Wonderful machine. (my birthday is 24/12/ this year)

Have you sent photographs to Jonathan Betts, I know they had none of these Lunds compensation waights?? I sent him some of 1724 that can be found
on that Barraud piece above.

Allan

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Jonathan has lots of the badges since they have the Lupton cache. He was shocked that I wanted one to display with the piece, presumably because he thought I could not resist the temptation to mount it! I think he or Peter have the pictures. I had Peter try to find it in their records without success.

I will make an effort to get a full set of pictures and post them here. The Lund balance is much less common, of course than the weights. I had thought there was no originals and only one late example made in the 1950's in Philadelphia.

 

[Omexa]

Hi, I have a few Barraud and Barraud & Lunds, this is one that I found while looking for something else. It is a Lever Conversion I think, in 1834 matching Cases. I was wondering if Barraud did the Conversion? Is it possible to Date this movement from 3/5880? Regards Ray

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Barraud's numbering is pretty bizarre in general but I do not believe there could be a 3rd series watch as early as this case. On the other hand, I have never seen a 3rd series without the number on the dial. I do not recall seeing a 3rd series with the Barraud & Lund (i.e. not Lunds) name on it either. Further there would not be a 3rd series verge although a cylinder or duplex is not impossible.

I have not seen another Barraud with a hallmark other than London.

The expansion balance and the high jewel count would be expected for the 3rd series, so what you might have is a cylinder that was in the shop with some other number on it from the 1st series or early 2nd series that was rebuilt as a lever but kept in the original case and the barrel bridge was re-engraved with a more "appropriate" number.

I would welcome other views as this is definitely a learning piece.

 

[Omexa]

Hi Tom, I checked and I am the guilty one who put it in the Case. Here is the back of the Dial. There is a spare hole, shown in photo. There is a Date on the Dial Plate 26-11-68 BL, that is under the Dial Hinge and other Dates on it. Regards Ray

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

There is nothing much wrong with the watch, ordinary watch by the firm around c1905, what we would call run of the mill. These watches were supplied by Joseph Preston. Page 195 in Jaggers book supplement. Someone as put it in a paircase to keep out the dust. Though has you say Tom still very interesting. I would clean up the case and put a nice silver chain on it, then wear it. By the time these watches were on the market, it is easier to see why the British were losing business-stem wind was by then common. Take a look at Waltham watches for this period.

Allan.

PS: While wrting the above Ray had put in the above.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Ray,

A sunk seconds sub dial would suggest post 1850s I'd have thought. Have you any pictures of the pillar plate and the underside of the top plate?

Regards,

Graham

 

[Omexa]

I just found another Date on the Dial Plate, "B L 29/1/08 or 68". Regards Ray

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Here are the additional pictures I promise to post of 1720 I think it is in pretty good condition and it seems to be working just fine.

I am posting this from my telephone to see how the pictures loaded up and to see just how difficult it is to make posts from my smart phone this is a this is an iPhone 6s plus that I'm using.

 

[John Pavlik]

2 examples, kind of close in serial numbers... The first is a complete watch, that is on its 2nd case ? .. Hall marks are later as the maker, but movement number is in the case.. The early one, by number, with compensated balance and a simple table roller lever escapement.. Could be that was changed also ? The later numbered one is a movement only... Typical brass escape wheel.. Has a very large triangular roller jewel.. The escape wheel and lever are capped jeweled.. Any Information on these movements appreciated..

 

[Tom McIntyre]

These are interesting pieces. I do not have any watches from the full plate 2nd series on my Barraud web site but I do have a loose movement 2/1760 that is very similar to your 2/2172. I do have a later full plate signed by Barraud & Lund but it is unlikely to be of their manufacture. The earliest non-full plate that I have is 2/753 which is a chronometer with an odd center cock ebauche. It has been re-cased, so is no help for dating. 2/6234 is the non-Barraud full plate that they supplied to Wm Bond for the Vermont Central RR but my example has a private label dial for Greeley. Those watches can be accurately dated to the mid 1850's from the documentation on the railroad contract.

I do not really know what the earliest date on a 2nd series might be. Perhaps as early as 1835, but I suspect more near to 1840. Original cases seem hard to find.

I will post a picture of mine that is like yours, if you like, but without a case it will not help much with the mystery. I think the date letter on your case is 1878, which should have been well into the 3rd series.

I think Alan's list may have been published by AHS so it may not be proper to reproduce the serial list here but there may be clues there as well. You can click on the black rectangle in the first post to read the article with the number list, so it is not that hard to get to.

------later -----------

I just looked at Alan's list and there are two with hallmarked cases: 2/503, pocket chronometer, hm 1820; 2/592, pocket chronometer hm 1827.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Tom,
My list is open to all- If you go on the net and put in Barraud chronometers Allan Purcell it should be there on the first page. They took it out of Acadimia. I did send it to the AHS, but they turned it down. I understand they had or have been promised an article on the early Barraud chronometers. They are still waiting.
Regards,
Allan.

 

[John Pavlik]

Attached re 2 photos of the lever slot and the roller jewel.. Would any one have knowledge about This type of escapement ?

 

[Tom McIntyre]

There is a normal single roller of the table style with a passing crescent. The difference is the much wider and undercut impulse pin. I am no expert in this area, but I think the idea of giving impulse closer to the line of centers was borrowed from the Savage 2 pin and was the reason for making these. I am not sure if it actually worked. I have seen a similarly pattern with a wide oval impulse jewel in Swiss watches.

If the notch in the table roller were much narrower and a bit deeper, you could get impulse in the notch and this would be a jeweled version of the Savage.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I was looking at Alan's list and 3/1600 is listed as a chronograph. It is actually a minute repeater and is recorded as 16826 in the Usher and Cole records for Barraud & Lund published in Jagger's supplement pg 197. I bought it about 20 years ago. Here are some pictures. The hallmark date looks to be 1874. It is also discussed on my web site at AWCo Web

 

[John Pavlik]

Thanks Tom. That was my inclination, it was related to a Savage II pin ... It works in this movement, but that's not saying
it would / does in the practical carry application.. At the very least, the problem of a broken roller jewel was almost eliminated .

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

Although superficially similar to a Savage, the action is quite different, and it is, as Tom says, just one of the many variants on the English lever which surfaced in the early development of this escapement. The function of the two pins (or wide jewel) in a Savage is only to unlock, and the impulse is given by the pin in the lever acting in the narrow square cutout in the roller table. This is almost the opposite of what happens in the commoner English lever.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Pavlik]

Graham,

I am far from any expert on escapements... what interests me about this and I could be way off... The subject of draw with the pallet stones and escape wheel teeth.. Could this
lever with the deep cut out matching the roller jewel with such and angle have the same effect as the pallet stone angle on the escape wheel teeth? Increasing the amplitude
of the balance wheel..

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

I think that any suggestion of draw at this end of the lever would have a detrimental effect on the freedom of the balance, which would be most undesirable in a detached escapement. Amplitude isn't the reason for draw, it's safety and avoidance of mis-locking.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Tom, Hi Graham,

Just one to look at, sorry I gave this away to my watchmaker for spares.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Allan,

What was wrong with it? A Savage in any state is worth keeping surely?

Regards,

Graham

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Until I started collecting Barraud, I thought the Savage was a rare escapement. I wonder how popular it was with other London/Coventry/Liverpool makers?

Has anyone seen an earlier one than this one?

View attachment 313857

 

[PJQL]

Hi,

Not wishing to be left out of this fascinating thread...here's an orphaned movement I found last week at a fair: a nice 3/4 plate fusee. It fully wound, and although the balance wheel is well set and operating, the movement doesn't run.

I have included photographs of the dial plate and the reverse side to the dial itself.

Regards

Piers

- - - Updated - - -

Hi,

Not wishing to be left out of this fascinating thread...here's an orphaned movement I found last week at a fair: a nice 3/4 plate fusee. It is fully wound, and although the balance wheel is well set and operating, the movement doesn't run.

I have included photographs of the dial plate and the reverse side to the dial itself.

Regards

Piers

 

[gmorse]

Hi Tom,

I've seen, but unfortunately never had the opportunity to handle, cased Savages with hallmarks for 1815. It's thought that he first developed his escapement around 1814, so a cased example with a verifiable date earlier than yours would be a real find.

I think it's interesting that this escapement was still being made as late as 1880.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Hi,

Not wishing to be left out of this fascinating thread...here's an orphaned movement I found last week at a fair: a nice 3/4 plate fusee. It fully wound, and although the balance wheel is well set and operating, the movement doesn't run.

I have included photographs of the dial plate and the reverse side to the dial itself.

Regards

Piers

- - - Updated - - -

Piers, I think these movements marked Impr'd are an interesting puzzle. I have not been able to spot the improvement and have found nothing written on it.

(if you would like me to edit your post to remove the redundant bit I will be happy to do so.)

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Graham, I was thinking that there might be an earlier numbered Barraud. Do you recall what makers were on the other examples you saw?