The auction has ended...

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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...so I hope it's okay that I post this information now. If not, I accept that judgement and understand why it was removed.

Recently a thread I had started was about an example of one of those cigar advertising clocks that was coming up for auction. These have been previously discussed at length on the Forums with arguments for and against their authenticity. It was quarantined. Okay. Though I did not provide a link to the auction, it was felt that I had provided enough info such that the auction could be identified. So be it. Well, the auction is over, and I am hoping it's now okay to do so.

As a side note. This lead to me being threatened with "moderation". Yes of course, other high crimes and misdemeanors I have committed will also be raised. Furthermore, I understand the necessity for appropriate rules and their appropriate reinforcement, but, like heck. If that occurred, it would have meant the end of my participation in the Forums. I suppose more than a few people would say phew and good riddance.

It was the Jeffrey Evans Auction, 2/26/2021, lot # 1039. Go to Live Auctioneers and search for the auction. I hesitate to link as I am permanently logged in. They're a very good experienced auction house. Their description speaks of various parts being replaced. No claims are made about the clock otherwise. If you peruse that auction, much of the advertising, and other stuff for that matter, blew the doors in on the estimates. This clock sold for too much (IMCO, any amount is too much) but under estimate.

Something superfluous from the same auction.

I did drink the Kool-Aid and may have overpaid for a lot. It's # 1529. Unless I missed something, which is quite possible, I think they thought this a typical Victorian wool work or trapunto piece. I have had some great ones over the years. Generally though, not in fashion and tough to sell. Too "Vicky" regardless of the skill with which they were made. It was cataloged as American or British. Based upon that, the original estimate wasn't too far off. No. I believe this to be much more rare. Unfortunately, a couple of other people must have thought so to and gave me a run for my $$. I NEVER get the sleepers at auctions with internet bidding.

A careful examination reveals that the flowers, buds, sheaves of wheat, etc. are made from a colored gauze like material. This was a technique taught in the Moravian schools in Salem, NC as well as Bethlehem and Lititz, PA. This technique is considered unique to those schools. It was generally done in the 1st 1/4 of the 19th century. As previously discussed on the Forums, this is a time when clock cases shared similar stenciled and or carved motifs. They are generally referred to as "ribbon" or "crepe work". Also note how the open basket of flowers seems to float in the center of the field on a small mound. Also typical of that kind of work. I own 2 others, a monumental piece and one that employs a painted scene. Here are those 2. Don't have permission to post the auction house's photos so if you're interested, you will have to go look:

theorem 1a.JPG moravian crepe work 2.JPG

Notice how I managed to work a clock into the second photo. I've owned 2 others, now living in other homes.

What is different about the new piece is that it is done on a black background. I could only find 3 other examples on a black back ground. One each from Salem, Bethlehem and Lititz.

For more, see Ring, Schiffer and Herr. Also search the collections of Winterthur, Old Salem Museums and Gardens and MESDA for examples.

RM
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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OK I'm lost now but I'd miss your contributions.
Thanks.

I very much enjoy the discussions you and your colleagues have surrounding tall case, bracket, Continental, etc, and of late, dial clocks. For me, generally a time to be quiet, listen and learn.

Ironically, someone just posted a Gustav Becker coming up at auction with what must be the auction house's photographs (no mention that they had permission to use them). However, no details of the auction, per se, so I guess it's okay?

RM
 

bruce linde

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Thanks.
I very much enjoy the discussions you and your colleagues have surrounding tall case, bracket, Continental, etc, and of late, dial clocks. For me, generally a time to be quiet, listen and learn.
Ironically, someone just posted a Gustav Becker coming up at auction with what must be the auction house's photographs (no mention that they had permission to use them). However, no details of the auction, per se, so I guess it's okay?
RM


the rules prohibit discussions of active auctions. the OP said the auction was 'coming up' but i was unable to find it.

if you can, please report their post and provide the auction URL for the moderators.

rules is rules, and we're all supposed to play by the same ones.
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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the rules prohibit discussions of active auctions. the OP said the auction was 'coming up' but i was unable to find it.

if you can, please report their post and provide the auction URL for the moderators.

rules is rules, and we're all supposed to play by the same ones.
Regarding my original post, it was an upcoming auction, too. It would not occur for another week or two?

If you can’t find the auction, then it’s okay? I assume someone found the future auction to which I had alluded, but did not link?

I guess you could/should ask the OP for the auction URL & if he has permission to use the pix?

Honestly, I have no dog in that particular fight, per se. I’m not concerned if he talks about an upcoming, active, past, imagined, haunted, and so on auction, so I have no intention of reporting the post. I just cite it as an example.

I personally think this is a dead horse that has been beaten quite enough. I think I have an understanding of things & hopefully I won’t step on any land mines in the future. My intention here is horological & not to expend time & energy on less worthwhile pursuits or efforts that seems to consume others?

RM
 
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brian fisher

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I know my opinion about the subject carries absolutely zero weight. However I personally appreciate bob sticking his neck out to keep the membership from getting swindled. Seems to me his heart is in the right place.

I did see the original post in question. I tossed a like at it before it was shot down....

all of this said, I do also understand the rules and am willing to abide by them. I see this for what it is: an entity comprised of scared stodgy old people trying to protect itself from litigation. I take no issue with any moderator here as I understand they are simply accomplishing the job of which they are tasked. To my knowledge, the Nawcc has never actually been sued over something on the mb. I belong to several car forums. Some run by kids. Some by adults acting like kids. I highly doubt they have ever been sued in regard to comments about 1200% less professional than anything I’ve ever seen here. Personally, I am a huge fan of my constitutional amendments. (Except the one that prohibited alcohol)
 
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rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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I know my opinion about the subject carries absolutely zero weight. However I personally appreciate bob sticking his neck out to keep the membership from getting swindled. Seems to me his heart is in the right place
Thanks. I appreciate your opinion.

RM
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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I know my opinion about the subject carries absolutely zero weight. However I personally appreciate bob sticking his neck out to keep the membership from getting swindled. Seems to me his heart is in the right place.

I did see the original post in question. I tossed a like at it before it was shot down....

all of this said, I do also understand the rules and am willing to abide by them. I see this for what it is: an entity comprised of scared stodgy old people trying to protect itself from litigation. I take no issue with any moderator here as I understand they are simply accomplishing the job of which they are tasked. To my knowledge, the Nawcc has never actually been sued over something on the mb. I belong to several car forums. Some run by kids. Some by adults acting like kids. I highly doubt they have ever been sued in regard to comments about 1200% less professional than anything I’ve ever seen here. Personally, I am a huge fan of my constitutional amendments. (Except the one that prohibited alcohol)
Talking about car forums, I enjoy "Barn Finds". The site is basically devoted to comment upon and critique of antique and "vintage" vehicles, mainly autos, for sale on eBay, Craig's list, Facebook and so on. Some of the discussions and assessments are, at times shall we say, rather blunt and therein very informative. But no one there seems to be running around like Chicken Little exclaiming that the sky is falling.

RM
 
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new2clocks

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To my knowledge, the Nawcc has never actually been sued over something on the mb
Actually, the NAWCC was sued or was threatened suit, over this issue, so there is precedence for this policy.

As I understand it, prior to the implementation of the current policy, negative comments were made on an item in an active or future auction (i.e., an auction that was not completed) and the seller sued the NAWCC.

belong to several car forums. Some run by kids. Some by adults acting like kids. I highly doubt they have ever been sued
And since these forums have no deep pockets, it would be fruitless to bring suit.

Regards.
 
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new2clocks

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The following is John Hubby's statement on the issue that was written by John in 2018. Bold emphasis is mine.

  • The NAWCC was threatened with lawsuit and received formal cease and desist letters from the attorneys of two eBay sellers in late 2001- early 2002, following derogatory remarks about their wares and their sales practices shortly after we started allowing open discussion of eBay sales around mid-2001. The sellers' claims were they had suffered financial losses, their sales had been negatively affected as well as their reputations, and would sue for actual losses and punitive damages.
  • Legal counsel at that time was Myron Mintz. This matter was immediately brought to his attention by me as MB Administrator and 2nd VP of NAWCC at the time. Mr. Mintz was well versed in this type of claim and how it could affect NAWCC, as he had recently been involved in a similar claim for another firm he represented. Mr. Mintz is one of the most respected attorneys in Washington D.C. regarding interpretation of the law regulating 501(c)(3) corporations, and was instrumental in the merger of NAWCC and the National Watch and Clock Museum in 2004. The fact that he served then and since that time pro bono for NAWCC has been a multi-thousand dollar gift from him to NAWCC and is NOT to be disparaged by the fact he serves without remuneration.
  • His opinion was that we would win any case that might be brought, because we had then and still have today a clear disclaimer in our MB terms of use that we are not in any way responsible for the postings of any user on this venue, and that said postings are solely the opinion and responsibility of the user. In addition there are common carrier rulings that are favorable to NAWCC in such instances.
  • His statement was that the problem is not that we would lose, but that we would have to spend multi-thousands of dollars to defend each such case, for which we did not have funds at the time nor do we today. His recommendation was to cease all active sale and auction activity on the MB to avoid any potential of such occurrence. That was done at the time we implemented an updated set of rules in 2002, and has continued in practice since then.
The argument that "others don't get sued" is specious, as there is no other MB on the Internet of our size and prominence that is owned or sponsored by a major horological organization, and from the perspective of any seller with money to spend we look like a "deep pockets" candidate for a lawsuit, especially when compared to the majority of other horological MBs that have few material assets at all.

These are facts, not hyperbole, fairy tales, or BS.


Regards.
 

bruce linde

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i want to address some of the questions raised above, but would also encourage all to get back to horological rather than organizational process musings. if you want to continue this discussion it should probably be moved to 'member comments and discussion', as it isn't really a 'general clock discussion'... up to this forum's moderators...





If you can’t find the auction, then it’s okay? I assume someone found the future auction to which I had alluded, but did not link?
yes. and, the auction for the clock you mentioned was the first search result that came up...





Regarding my original post, it was an upcoming auction, too. It would not occur for another week or two?
it was listed on their website. if it's listed, it's 'live'. there's nothing in the rules that says 'an auction is only considered 'live' during bidding'... as you know.

if someone calls the auction house and says 'they're talking about that clock you're going to auction next week on the nawcc mb and saying it's not worth anywhere near what you're asking'... then what? as new2clocks says, we look like quite the juicy target. anyone can sue anyone any time... and any demand letter received needs to be run by the organization's attorney(s)... lawsuit or no actual lawsuit. don't be free with someone else's money.

as for bob protecting the uninformed.... if a buyer doesn't do their research until after they purchase, that's their problem... and he's already given them every chance with his other posts on these clocks. caveat emptor.








I see this for what it is: an entity comprised of scared stodgy old people trying to protect itself from litigation.
ouch... otoh, could also be a group of generous volunteers willing to give substantial amounts of time and energy to support the cause, despite having to the slings and arrows of unappreciation [sic]... unless i'm mis-reading an offer to help?

i usually look forward to your and bob's posts as they are typically high quality content... but this thread reminds me of that old joke:

person 1: the food is terrible here.
person 2: yeah... and such small portions!
 

Steven Thornberry

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I see this for what it is: an entity comprised of scared stodgy old people trying to protect itself from litigation.
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at this statement. In any event, it was uncalled for. These "scared stodgy old people" are some of the very ones whose efforts and contributions have helped to make the NAWCC the premier horological education organization it is today, so that the brash, arrogant young people can enjoy the benefits it has to offer. This issue goes beyond the Forums specifically; it affects the whole of the NAWCC.
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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i want to address some of the questions raised above, but would also encourage all to get back to horological rather than organizational process musings. if you want to continue this discussion it should probably be moved to 'member comments and discussion', as it isn't really a 'general clock discussion'... up to this forum's moderators...







yes. and, the auction for the clock you mentioned was the first search result that came up...







it was listed on their website. if it's listed, it's 'live'. there's nothing in the rules that says 'an auction is only considered 'live' during bidding'... as you know.

if someone calls the auction house and says 'they're talking about that clock you're going to auction next week on the nawcc mb and saying it's not worth anywhere near what you're asking'... then what? as new2clocks says, we look like quite the juicy target. anyone can sue anyone any time... and any demand letter received needs to be run by the organization's attorney(s)... lawsuit or no actual lawsuit. don't be free with someone else's money.

as for bob protecting the uninformed.... if a buyer doesn't do their research until after they purchase, that's their problem... and he's already given them every chance with his other posts on these clocks. caveat emptor.










ouch... otoh, could also be a group of generous volunteers willing to give substantial amounts of time and energy to support the cause, despite having to the slings and arrows of unappreciation [sic]... unless i'm mis-reading an offer to help?

i usually look forward to your and bob's posts as they are typically high quality content... but this thread reminds me of that old joke:

person 1: the food is terrible here.
person 2: yeah... and such small portions!
You're again missing some key points. For example, your attempted distinction between an active auction and not makes no sense and again doesn't explain the difference in response, if you really consider it even briefly. I guess I just haven't been clear enough and as a general nonspecific statement, it's part of the fatigue felt trying to discuss anything with people who are more focused on self-justification and maintaining their positions and the relentless group think rather than understanding another point of view.

The volunteers should be and are appreciated. However, that does not grant license and ultimately, it's the people who contribute content to the MB, the Bulletin and ultimately make the NAWCC, an EDUCATIONAL ORGANIZATION, it what it is...and in some ways, isn't.

When one becomes a moderator, a "user administrator" (LOL, oh my, how we love our titles), a board member, and so on, one becomes essentially a public figure within the organization. I would also add to that group frequent Forums contributors, especially the opinionated ones, and those who write articles for the Bulletin. Their statements, and in the instance of some, actions, especially as they effect others, are open to scrutiny and question. Sorry, that comes with the territory and if not able to cope well with it, consider withdrawing.

RM
 
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Bruce Alexander

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brash, arrogant young people
YIKES! I resemble that remark! Well, the "brash and arrogant" part anyway. I haven't been young in a long time so I have no excuse...:chuckling:
I do thoroughly appreciate contributions made by the experienced, educated and well-tempered members though. Just saying...
 

bruce linde

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it's part of the fatigue felt trying to discuss anything with people who are more focused on self-justification and maintaining their positions ... rather than understanding another point of view.
jeez, i know just how you feel. :)






one becomes essentially a public figure within the organization. I would also add to that group frequent Forums contributors, especially the opinionated ones, and those who write articles for the Bulletin. Their statements, and in the instance of some, actions, especially as they effect others, are open to scrutiny and question.
so that would include you, as well? :)


do what and how you want... but i will continue praising where praise is due, and reminding where reminders are due.

btw... what is your definition of a ‘live’ auction if not ‘an item posted for sale on an auction site, including ‘coming soon’s?
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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YIKES! I resemble that remark! Well, the "brash and arrogant" part anyway. I haven't been young in a long time so I have no excuse...:chuckling:
I do thoroughly appreciate contributions made by the experienced, educated and well-tempered members though. Just saying...
Young & arrogant!! Another well earned LOL.

This is the NAWCC.

Maybe the latter, not many the former.

RM
 

Steven Thornberry

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When one becomes a moderator, a "user administrator" (LOL, oh my, how we love our titles)
To satisfy at least part of your insatiable curiosity about the title "User Administrator," it was developed in 2011 and foist upon me (well, I agreed to the foisting). Over the years, the duties have changed. It's just a title, a handle, if you will, kinda like MD (Me Doctor). I've often thought about changing it to something like Roustabout or Head Duck, to name just two examples.

Donald Duck.jpg
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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To satisfy at least part of your insatiable curiosity about the title "User Administrator," it was developed in 2011 and foist upon me (well, I agreed to the foisting). Over the years, the duties have changed. It's just a title, a handle, if you will, kinda like MD (Me Doctor). I've often thought about changing it to something like Roustabout or Head Duck, to name just two examples.

View attachment 640638
Peace brother. I just heard the bell ring signaling the end of the final round and it's a draw.

Let's get back to our common ground, horology. Much more fun fighting about that!

As a means to maybe reducing the tension a bit, I suggest we get up and move to this youtube video, courtesy of the late "Brother James":

James Brown - Get Up Offa That Thing - YouTube

RM
 

shutterbug

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Just to clarify - we love education and examples to look at. It is perfectly acceptable to link to a finished auction. A discussion about what to look for and examples of fakes showing issues they have is educational and helpful. The drawback though is that those pictures from a link disappear with time. We can't link to current or upcoming auctions for the reasons stated above, but that certainly doesn't limit the ability to discuss clocks that have been offered in the past.
 

MuseChaser

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Just to clarify - we love education and examples to look at. It is perfectly acceptable to link to a finished auction. A discussion about what to look for and examples of fakes showing issues they have is educational and helpful. The drawback though is that those pictures from a link disappear with time. We can't link to current or upcoming auctions for the reasons stated above, but that certainly doesn't limit the ability to discuss clocks that have been offered in the past.
I am acutely interested in learning "what to look for" and especially "what to look OUT for," and would very much appreciate posts pointing out less tha ethical sales practices. The reasons for not discussing live auctions given by new2clocks and others and contained in John Hubby's statement make good sense for this specific organization... I understand.

On two occasions, I've posted/uploaced pictures that were captured from website listings either via downloading the image or screen grab, rather than linking to them. This solves the concern raised by Shutterbug about them disappearing when the listing disappears. I trust that that is an acceptable practice? I don't want to overstep...
 

novicetimekeeper

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I am acutely interested in learning "what to look for" and especially "what to look OUT for," and would very much appreciate posts pointing out less tha ethical sales practices. The reasons for not discussing live auctions given by new2clocks and others and contained in John Hubby's statement make good sense for this specific organization... I understand.

On two occasions, I've posted/uploaced pictures that were captured from website listings either via downloading the image or screen grab, rather than linking to them. This solves the concern raised by Shutterbug about them disappearing when the listing disappears. I trust that that is an acceptable practice? I don't want to overstep...
I would have thought that was a copyright violation. However I'm neither a lawyer nor in the jurisdiction of this site.

The best is a link to a completed auction or get the copyright owner's permission. I routinely as for this whenever I buy at auction, especially now as it can take longer to get the item and I can never see it in person before purchase.
 

shutterbug

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All photographs are the property of the owner and carry a copyright protection. We can link to those pictures, but are not legally able to capture them and post them here unless the owner gives permission which can be verified. Usually if you ask, they'll say fine ... But if you use them here please specify that it is with permission from the owner. And keep the email just in case.
 
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MuseChaser

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All photographs are the property of the owner and carry a copyright protection. We can link to those pictures, but are not legally able to capture them and post them here unless the owner gives permission which can be verified. Usually if you ask, they'll say fine ... But if you use them here please specify that it is with permission from the owner. And keep the email just in case.
My apologies. I thought it was OK to to do based upon a previous discussion wherein we (the posters) were advised that we should not expect to retain the rights to any images posted online. I recently posted two pics of a Gilbert calendar clock. Should I remove that post?
 

shutterbug

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Try to get permission. If you can't, send me a private conversation and I can remove them for you. Your edit time may have expired.
 

MuseChaser

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All photographs are the property of the owner and carry a copyright protection. We can link to those pictures, but are not legally able to capture them and post them here unless the owner gives permission which can be verified. Usually if you ask, they'll say fine ... But if you use them here please specify that it is with permission from the owner. And keep the email just in case.
I've written a note of apology to the lister, and have asked for permission. Will advise as to the response. Apologies for the hassle.
 

shutterbug

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Great! Thanks for your efforts at keeping everything 'Kosher' :)
 

the 3rd dwarve

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WOW, did this thread take a left turn.

While I am not in the slightest interested in politics I am a fan of Pacita Abad and the unique art niche she created. I would enjoy seeing your trapunto painting done with a black background, like a black faced clock it seems to be pretty rare. Is it multimedia? You have posted some of the most interesting things here. Please post some pictures of your new acquisition when you have the chance.

Regards,

D`

front.jpg
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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WOW, did this thread take a left turn.

While I am not in the slightest interested in politics I am a fan of Pacita Abad and the unique art niche she created. I would enjoy seeing your trapunto painting done with a black background, like a black faced clock it seems to be pretty rare. Is it multimedia? You have posted some of the most interesting things here. Please post some pictures of your new acquisition when you have the chance.

Regards,

D`

View attachment 641249
It's a 1820's Moravian school girl needle work. See my posting above for other examples. When I take possession, will be happy to post pix. It's also on the Jeffrey Evans website.

RM
 

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