TALL- LONG CASE / GRANDFATHER CLOCK: CASE STYLES: PRE 1860: A study.

laprade

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Willy, as usual, nice clear pics, and decent file size! Just to remind viewers, of what clock we are talking about:
Full%20-%20Copie.jpg
The inscription on the backboard, could be either the cabinet maker or some repairer. You will often find pencil notes on original work. I took out a rotten window some years ago, and found in nice copperplate script, in pencil: "over butler's pantry", written on the underside of the cill, and here in France, on the large doors to my grange, is "Aubeterre", which is the next village, and might have been referring to the old railway station, for delivery.

The hood door has had its pivots replaced. They should be shaped like swans head, without the beak! You can just see the old hole for the slightly longer fittings. You can also see the older scratches from the original arrangement. Also note the two "pegs/dowels" on the door corner.
IMG_6422.jpg
The main door has had at one time, a turned knob: whether original or not, any one's guess. You can see where the marks have been hidden by restoration on the front: behind the top of the escutcheon plate. You can also see signs of where the knob was turned to lift or lower a catch. You might see some signs of that on the inside of the case frame: you'll need a mirror! The escutcheon plate is a recent replacement: too sharp looking: no polishing ware and tare!
IMG_6418.jpg
The lock is the right type: plain scruffy steel, but the hinges are replacement cabinet hinges. Besides the front space which shows up well in the picture, I have marked the old screw holes and rebates for the original hinge.
IMG_6420.jpg

Thanks again for your useful contribution! We need more like you!
 

wmoorev

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Laprade,

Your great remarks have precipitated new discoveries. After further investigation, the lock piece is clearly not original. Looking at the side view of the door, one can see where a dutchman has been applied to infill the void from a former fully mortised lock case.
Old mortise.jpg
Also, notice how the throw bolt of the lock sits on the back of the door. With the original lock that was fully mortised, clearly the throw bolt slid into the side rail of the case, and the original keeper is still there. I never noticed that the old keeper did not match with the location of the current throw bolt. Also the same image shows a blob of fill on the side rail, and some scoring that occured above the keeper. Perhaps the scoring happened from an interim "fix" between the old lock and the new?
I have also inserted an arrow on the stop that has been applied to the back of the side rail. The wood does not seem as old as the rest of the case, so I suspect this was added. Perhaps if there was no original stop, then that would explain the hinge replacement that would have been required had someone inadvertently pushed the door within the case.
old keeper.jpg
Lastly, I have included an image taken with a mirror, showing the backside of the side rail, where one can clearly see the degredation caused by the new throw bolt that now projects behind the side rail.
mirror view.jpg
I wonder if you may have an image of the "swans head" style pivot that you mentioned? And do you have any images of cases with wooden rotating knobs? I don't believe I have ever seen a tall case clock with wooden knobs, let alone one with a rotating wood latch. Were this originally just a wooden knob, I would have expected a small screw hole, but the diameter of the filled hole on the back of the door is significantly larger than that for a screw.
Thank you so very much for your wonderful remarks and questions. You have refined my vision to see that which I otherwise had not seen before.
Best Regards
- Willy -
 

laprade

Registered User
Willy; I scoured the thread looking for any "open hood doors" but none would enlarge to show anything useful: so I have done a sketch.

hood door pivot.jpg
While looking, I found on "last page" a post by Dave B, which shows a swivel latch on his clock. In his case, it has a metal shaft.

dave B- latch.JPG

If the knob on your clock was like that, then it will have left circular marks on the inside of the case.

The lock discovery is interesting, as not many LCs have mortised locks. Most are rebated. The actual term for the area where the lock's "keeper" contacts the case, is "striking plate". Most cabinets would have a brass/metal piece to protect the wood. Bravo; keep up the good work.

If anyone has the time, can someone post a pic of a hood door hinge, as shown above.

I've just looked at Meadows and Passmore catalogue, and under "case ornamentation" they offer pairs of blanks in brass.
 

wmoorev

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Laprade - Thanks for the sketch, now I understand. I did not have a clear mental image, and your sketch easily clarifies it.
Regarding the various door latches, unfortunately the filled hole at the top of the escusion (the likely location of a knob) aligns just above the filled blob on the edge of the side rail, so consequently, if there are any radial marks inside the cabinet, they will be underneath the applied wood strip that acts as a stop. There is damage to the inside edge of the side rail, noted with the red arrow, and that could easily be the starting point of that internal scoring mark?
Interesting about cabinet locks not normally being mortised. I will say that the strike plate is clearly hand forged, so I do not know if that makes it more likely to be an original component? Maybe it had a mortised lock that became damaged, then the knob was installed to replace the lock, and the new escusion and rebated lock box were installed to replace the knob? No one will ever know, that's for sure!
door stop.jpg
Thanks again for all your great feedback. Now I will focus on the movement, and respond to your remarks in that thread.
Cheers
- Willy -
 

laprade

Registered User
Willy, some time ago, Robert G, sent me a shot of a swivel catch, but only today, have I managed to get it to cooperate and allow itself to be improved: it was too dark. It is from the "Agnew" clock shown earlier in the thread. The picture is quite confusing, and as it is only today, that I have been able to see it clearly, I can't really elaborate. If Robert sees this, maybe he can explain it.
 

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laprade

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A short while ago, I was talking about the classical orders, and Doric being the most common on the cases, and that it wasn't always "truly" represented.

It so happens that on another thread, Harold Bain has posted a perfect example of the Doric. The picture shows the real difference between the tops (caps) and the bases. The clock is of alabaster, and has other good classical decorations; dental frieze, proper pillars with the "bulge", and even down to rosettes in the main frieze itself. The other nice touch is that it also has "egg and dart" carving on the plinth top moulding. There is also some carved leaf decoration on the "dado", which looks to be some sort of laurel motif. For those of you who are interested in the classical orders, I would add this item to your archives.
 

laprade

Registered User
First things first. I thought I had posted a link to the fine example of Doric, that Harold Bain had posted: it seems I didn't!

http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=73363

SUPERB REGENCY CLOCK CASE

I have great pleasure in showing the extraordinary regency case of Tony Baker's.
regency case.jpg
The dial is of a Birmingham seller, and oddly enough, the trunk door shows signs of the Liverpool school! three pointed gothic! The door has a crossbanded surround with double stringing. Other parts of the case, also have this feature. The escutcheon plate is quite a subdued one, and not at all flamboyant.
trunk section.jpg

The hood pillars are pure egyptian, as are the trunk side pillars. Both have pharaohs heads and feet! The area above the door, has egyptial "bird motifs" in a balck wood, and there is a "papyrus" fan motif under the center finial pedestal. The swan necks have turned wooden rosettes, and the two side finial pedestals are inlaid with boxwood stringing.
hood.jpg
The hood has also reeded sections between the pillars and the door itself. The door has a center string inlay and an ivory door pull. Such detailing is quite uncommon in clocks of this period, as the regency style was not an everyday thing: it was a fad style, and associated with "high society" of the day.
egyptian regency (2).jpg egyptian regency.jpg

The trunk also has inlaid egyptian motif in a frieze above the trunk door
rgyptian regency.jpg
and again an inlaid panel below that door.
lower trunk section.jpg
The base of the clock is decorated with inlaid work, which matches the trunk top frieze. It has two egyptian style pilasters decorated with boxwood stringing, and topped with boxwood strung square panels, lead to a form of "french foot". The center panel of the base has two sections, a oblong panel the same as the top of the trunk, and a larger panel with inlaid designs in a dark wood: possibly ebony.

The door, you will realize, having two panels, above and below, comes under the "short door" period. The mouldings on the trunk are a "soft" ogee


The previous clock I showed with regency styling, you will remember that I also said that it was close to "William IV". The clock shown here, is pure Regency, no ambiguities!


This clock is truly amazing, and thanks to Tony Baker, for his permission to show it. (ticktocktony.com)
 

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laprade

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Just a quick note on "orders". I found a nice clear picture of "Pompeian Ionic", and also a good shot of some doric columns. On monday, at Chalais market, I noticed an effort to decorate a building top corner with straight "Ionic": but not quite.

The pompeian Ionic, is in Angoulême, Charente (16), on the façade of a 18th c Hotel de Ville, of an aristo.
pompean ionic close.jpg pompeyian ionic.jpg

The example of Doric, is from the small town of Lisle, in the Dordogne, (24), and I think the columns could very well be original roman, as they are made in sections. Modern methods of transport allow for pillars of up to a certain size, to be made in one piece. Also, Lisle, is a very small town/large/village, and had no reason, or cash, for that matter, to commission a neoclassical colonnade. (I could be wrong, Harold) Note the "false" perspective used to make them look bigger: the bulge and tapering. This feature often is found on clock hoods, but rarely on trunk pillars.
LISLE COLLONES.jpg

Note the clean simple lines of the doric caps. The second shot, shows the "sections" and base.

cap.JPG sections & base.JPG

The lintels are of painted oak.

Chalais, Charente (16)
The Chalais example of Ionic, is made up of two ionic façades at right angles.
chalais ionic.jpg chalais ionic - Copie.jpg
 

laprade

Registered User
Two clocks from Suffolk, on the UK east coast, kindly lent to us by Frank Menez.

Thomas Moore Ipswich England Circa 1730, mahogany case. and John Page Ipswich England circa 1750, in a case that could be walnut.

Frank did send me some info on the makers, who both had strong connections with London. I can't find the relevant email, so I'll ask Frank to post it after this post. Frank did say that the clocks came from private houses, so are unlikely to be marriages or have been fiddled with, by the usual suspects!

(Also, the picture file size available is not large, so some of the shots are hard to enlarge)

The Moore case is a very up-market job, with brass inlays in its hood columns, and may have been made in London.
Download - Copie (3).jpg
The hood has a simple broken arch, which is a common feature in clocks from near to London. It comprizes of a stepped pair of concave mouldings.
Download b.jpg
The trunk is square sided, with a very long door, with a broken arched top, a crossbanded border and edge moulding. The top moulding on the trunk is a clean simple curvetto, whereas the base mould is a form of double return.
Download - Copie.jpg

The base has a double plinth.
Download - Copie (2).jpg

The John Page Ipswich England circa 1750, clock is very typical of the east coast, Essex, Kent, etc, and is very like the first clock in the thread: Colchester.

The case design lacks the sophistication of the Moore clock, and has that "homely" country look, even though it does have some very smart features. The trunk has side columns with brass doric caps and bases. The door has a delightful double arrangement of crossbanding. However, the symmetry of the trunk is a bit off, with the shortened columns, the strange top to the door, and the large space below it. The trunk mouldings are a form of convex, not a common feature, and a bit clumsy.
Download a.jpg

One interesting feature of the hood, is the door. It is not crossbanded, as is the general method, but is solid wood with a moulding, much like a house window to contain the glass. (normally, the glass is held by the crossbanding). The moulding that makes up the hood broken arch, is also of a convex nature. The decoration on the top, between the finial posts, is just a plain piece of wood, and not decorated, like the Colchester clock.
Download c.jpg

The base has a double plinth, which is a london feature.

Thanks Frank for letting us have a close look at your nice clocks, especially the Moore clock, which is a fine example of an early mahogany clock.
 

laprade

Registered User
One thing, I forgot to mention about the Moore clock of Frank's, was that it has correct caps for its doric hood pillars. You can see from the picture, the flat extension below the turned top, which is different from the base..
doric.JPG bases.JPG

Also I notice now, that the trunk has panels just above the trunk door that are framed with stringing, and also from the hood shot in the last post, you can just see strings on the top area of the trunk door.
View attachment 92861 strings.JPG

The dial on the Moor clock would indicate quite an early one, Frank reckons about 1730, but against that is the date of the introduction of mahogany in english furniture, and yet again, the use of panels framed with stringing inlay.

Because most of the dating of clocks depends on the times of the names on the dials, the cases have to some extent had to follow those dates. In some cases (ptp) this is clearly not quite right, and one of the main reasons for the discrepancy is down to the antique trade. However, with clocks that have been in private hands for generations, it is hard to argue the point, unless at some stage, the owners decided that they wanted a new case for an existing clock, or had to replace a damaged one. So, like householders, changing the windows for newer ones, it isn't out of order to think the same about getting a new case for the clock.

As to windows, some fine examples of this change can be seen on many 17th & 18th century, town houses in the big cities, were in the mid 19th, the windows on the ground floor were replaced with the "new" large single float glass sheets, while the upper floors, still have the multi pane glazing. I don't know about America, but in the UK, London and Liverpool have some fine examples, and Dublin also, in Éire. Now a days, it is aluminium or PVC! I doubt if any clocks have been rehoused in aluminium or PVC, though many have been painted by "interior decorators"!
 

laprade

Registered User
SCOTTISH CLOCKS: PRE 1800

Regular readers of my posts, will know how I have been the odd man out when it comes to some scots clocks. The fine quality (proper) swan necked clocks have been a puzzle, and I have referred to them as having "english" style cases, with some scots embellishments; side windows and silk backed pediments. I put this style of clock down to the influence of the Adam brothers, and I still hold to that idea.

What has been staring me in the face, and others, is that the story might be the wrong way round.

When you look at the "broken pediment" clocks, there are three types; simple round (up) curved, straight (often called "architectural") and last, but not least, the "ogee" variety, which is the most common. London makers seemed to shy away from the latter: why, could be any-one's guess. I rather think it was due to some sort of friction between them and the Adam brothers.

Most art historians, which includes furniture, say that it was Robert Adam who introduced the "broken pediment" into english furniture. It can be seen on the tops of bureau bookcases, tallboys etc, both in the UK and federal America! He designed and fitted out complete stately homes, and used the Chippendales to do most of his work. They had, up till the adoption of the ogee pediment, made things to the designs of the late Queen Anne period, and George I: chinese; claw and ball etc, and also some very fancy gothic stuff. Adam changed all that.

When it comes to quality case making, there seem to be four main areas which produce exquisite examples: London, Edinburgh and environs, Liverpool and its localities, and Bristol. These areas tend to go for "over the top" stuff, and I suppose, Liverpool is the strongest in that respect: they are "impressive", whereas Edinburgh produces "elegant" cases. London clocks look to me to be "fine" but often a bit severe. The Bristol clocks are "flashy"!

So, in reality, the ogee topped clocks are really speaking scottish, and the badly named, by me, so called english style cases, are in fact pure scots.

I show some beautiful examples of some of Allan Smiths fine scots clocks, and also one from over the border in Carlisle. I include this one, as it only a few miles away from one of the other examples; Dumfries., and doesn't have the frets and silk backing.

Howden of Edinburgh Howden of Edinburgh.jpg Normand Mac Pherson of Edinburgh. Normand Mac Pherson of Edinburgh..jpg George Blackie of Musselburgh George Blackie of Musselburgh.jpg
John Grindall of Dumfies.Recorded 1755 John Grindall of Dumfies.Recorded 1755.jpg And last, but not least, Monkhouse of Carlisle, Monkhouse of Carlisle.jpg note that this clock, does not have the frets and silk backing

This may be a bizarre thing to say, and I'm sure it will cause no end of argument: the reality is that the ogee swan necked clocks first came from Scotland, as an Adam design. England followed, but only in certain areas, Liverpool being one of the most important, most likely due to the number of scots merchants and other professionals who came there in the late 18th c.

Hows that for a turnabout!
 

oldcat61

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This is getting even more tangled. Of course it may depend on one's ethnic background. You'll have a hard time convincing a Londoner that anything beautiful was born in the barbaric Highlands. My mother's family is from Keppoch, northeast of Fort Wiiliam, so I guess I come down on the other side of this fight. I'm still intrigued by the differences in sound frets - side & in the pediment. I love the thistle in my John Key's side frets. Parchment covered, not silk. Seem to be on all his clocks. Would love to other similar designs. Sue
 

laprade

Registered User
Sue, it is surprizing what is staring one in the face: but can't see the wood for the trees.

I think it is fair to say that Scotland led with the ogee broken arch. Some of the dates of the fine scots makers are quite early.

It is interesting, when you look at the spread of the "quality" ogee swans, you can see a demarcation line, where south met north: no surrender!

Another interesting fact, is that Adam was in the forefront of the "mahogany era", which introduced the availability of well usable economic veneers. This era also saw the introduction of pine as a secondary wood: e.g. back boards.

Another of the features which came with mahogany was the increased use of the crosbanding as a means of holding the hood glasses, which became 99% universal. So this can also be used as a help in dating cases.

As to the frets and silk backing, (usually red) they appear on quite a lot of early clocks south of the border, and it would be hard to prove which way the influence went, but I suspect, it came from the south.

One thing I did notice on the scots examples in the previous post, is that they were careless, when it came to the doric caps! Adam was a stickler for quality, as he was quoted as saying the gilding on wood, needed five layers of gold leaf, to look right! Stroll on!

As to the " barbaric Highlands", I think, the rather straight laced lowland Scots of Edinburgh would take you aside and point out some cultural differences, between them and the wild men from the highlands. There is quite a divide between the two! The gentry of the lowlands, consider themselves to be "frightfully" cultured, and one can see how well the Adam brothers fitted in. In the 70s, a friend of mine was a resident musician at Mc Tavishes Kitchen, a famous music pub, in Fort William.
 

Frank Menez

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Laprade
The Moore clock has a Burr Walnut case on oak, and the Page clock has a mahogany case. Frank PS I am not an expert on clock case woods and hope I am correct. Frank
 
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laprade

Registered User
Frank, The Moore hood is definitely mahogany, as the shot of hood and trunk door top shows. I checked the name disc when I was doing the post, as the full shot of the clock gives the impression of a burr walnut, and in your email you had suggested this. I had thought that I had emailed you about it, but I find that the email in the drafts section:confused:
 

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Frank Menez

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Laprade
The wood on the hood appears to be different than the Trunk. The Auction Cataloge describes the case as being figured walnut. I will take some close up photos of the clock case and send them to you. Is it possible for the hood to be mahogany and the trunk Burr walnut:???:? Frank
 

laprade

Registered User
Frank, I must admit, it is a bit of a puzzle. Off the top of my head, I'd say no to a mix and match, but I have to do some checking around, before I make a fool of myself. I'm still reeling from the scots story, and also trying to fathom out, why the demarcation line for the swans, is a diagonal from south Lincolnshire to Bristol.

Still on the scots story: I had a close look at the download of the scottish makers, and found some images, sketches and photogravure: a very interesting flat top (early) with a chinese trellis pagoda top; some swan necks, and other "london" style cases; and also a 19th c electromagnetic clock by a Mr. Bain. The Scots have always been quite mechanically minded, even Star Treck has "Scottie", and Logi Baird did invent TV. I have to find a way of saving the images for the thread, without printing and scanning, as the whole book is a complete PDF image! (90 mbs!)

Sue; I looked for your Dunbarton man, but no sign. Some readers will find the book interesting, as the author has included some very interesting biographical info, which includes some journal reports and court rulings.
 

Frank Menez

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Suffolk Clocks & Clockmakers by Haggar & Miller

Thomas Moore's earlist pieces are signed Tho. Moore. Around 1725 he adopted the best known form Thos. Moore.

Cases are walnut, marquetry,lacquer, or
oak. and one mahogany, possibily a replacement.
 

Ralph

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Laprade
The wood on the hood appears to be different than the Trunk. The Auction Cataloge describes the case as being figured walnut. I will take some close up photos of the clock case and send them to you. Is it possible for the hood to be mahogany and the trunk Burr walnut:???:? Frank
I think it can be difficult at times to distinguish between mahogany and walnut. Especially on smaller examples, like a door frame.

Ralph
 

laprade

Registered User
Ralph, I understand what you are saying, it can confuse.

Another point that is relevant, is the use of the veneer (crossbanded) for the enclosure of the glass. I'll have to consult on that feature being in use on the older walnut cases.

Frank's shot of the door back, clearly is oak, which would have been used for a walnut veneered case.
oak door.jpg
Readers: note the rather rough looking door lock, which is what is normal.
door lock.jpg
The shots of the trunk door top, clearly show walnut, as does that of the base, which has been hacked about a bit; the plinth is not right.
trunk door top.jpg
The long split in the veneer, is caused by shrinkage of the oak framing, which is horizontal.
base.jpg
Frank's shot of the side of the hood, is too dark to tell the wood, and the file size too small to enlarge or brighten. Frank, a shot of the door open showing the back of its frame, would help, if you have time. It also will show any form of hood locking arrangements.
 

Ralph

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Going back and reviewing the pictures of Frank's clock, and seeing the hood door frame in context with the rest of the case, I see the incongruity.

Ralph
 

Frank Menez

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finally after owning this clocks for over forty years I am taking a good look at the case. If you look closely at the top part of the trunk on both sides of the door you will see some damage. I am wondering if this clock fell over to cause this damage and the hood was so damage that it was replaced. This may be the reason that a hood made of mahogany was used, due to the fact the walnut was becoming scarce in England.

I have heard the following explanation for the long split on the bottom of the plinth. The split goes around both sides. It llooks like the base was cut off to allow the clock to stand in a room with low celings. It is not unusal to see very old English houses with very low celings.

Will send you some more photos
 
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laprade

Registered User
Frank, sorry about the comment about the plinth, and thanks for the batch of pics. The new base picture shows a double plinth.
double plinths.jpg
Now that I see that the crack goes all way round, it does look as if someone cut it down. You might be able to see from inside if any strengthening pieces of wood have been inserted to hold the cut together. It is still possible that is is a frame crack. I think if someone was going to cut it down, they would have had a go at the plinths, rather than the base panel section.

The hood door is of oak, and I love the brass strap hinges.
door hinge.jpg
The other Page clock which has the solid door and the glazing moulding, is right for that type. Maybe someone veneered over the door front, and changed the glazing method. The other odd thing is the lack of columns on the trunk.
brass insets.jpg
If you trawl the posh sites, you will see that most (I want to say all) clocks with the brass insets in the columns are of mahogany, and have matching columns on the trunks.
door inlays.jpg door key.jpg
Your pictures of the trunk keyhole escutcheon and the door top, show that the door has a crossbanded outer edge, with a decorated string as a framing, and it looks as if the two panels above the door have the same stringing. I like the door mould, it has a lovely shape, with the mix of convex and concave. Readers should take note of the clean simple curvetto of the top trunk mould. The bottom mould has a small convex turn just as it touches the base panel. You can also see that the base panel has the string and crossband decoration.
base - Copie.jpg
You mention in your email that the clock has a "swivel" piece of wood to secure the hood. There is one of those shown earlier in the thread, on an oak cased clock from Kent. These swivels are there to stop the hood falling off. What I was looking for was an actual lock for the door. The owners of a lot of LCs seemed to be very keen that the whole thing was locked; to stop the butler fiddling his hours?

Thanks Frank for your time and trouble, and apologies for the indecision as to the hood having mahogany bits. As Ralph says, sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between some straight grain walnut and mahogany.
 

Frank Menez

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Looked at the inside of the Plinth. There are strengthening blocks of wood inserted to hold the cut together. The hood door does have a lock. Lost the key several years ago. Slould have had a tassel on the Key. For those who do not know the tassel helps you to find the key if it falls out before the wife gets it with the vacuum cleaner. Also it is a bad Idea to seperate a key from the clock. You may put it away and it can be easly lost. let me know if you want any additional photos. I have heard that there is another explanation for the two horizonal cracks at the top of the trunk opposite the trunk door. It may be a weak spot in this location. I been told that this defect has been seen on other long case clocks.
 
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laprade

Registered User
An interesting long door flat top, clock, with hood door and pillars combined, has been posted in the thread linked below.

http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=75061

The case looks very english, but the maker is from Philly, having come from England. One feature of the case which is interesting, is the mitred framing of the trunk section, which is not very english.
 

laprade

Registered User
You will find this case of some interest.

http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?p=570595#post570595

The case has some interesting features, which include claw feet, barley twist type trunk pillars, in the english style of 1840s+. The case also has some influence from a german style, especially the inset trunk door and the fielded panel in the base.
 

laprade

Registered User
I noticed this column outside a friend's house, and have been meaning to show it, as it is a very clear example of Pompeian Ionic. You will notice that some restoration work was done to the carvings. This was done recently by the late Edmund Ashby, the american sculptor, who died a few months ago.
 

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laprade

Registered User
At last: someone has posted a fine longcase.

It is american, and very elegant: things to note

The trunk door and the base, are crossbanded. The trunk also has "mason's miters" on its sides. The hood has front and back matching pillars, in a "domestic" style, but very fine. The feet are of the "french style", with a decorated skirting.

a really nice case.

http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=77122
 

laprade

Registered User
This link will take you to what I am certain is a marriage.

http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=77796

The main part of the case is very late, and has certain points that could indicate being Scots. However, it has a very fine tall hood with fine pillars, in a light "domestic" style (i.e not classical) that is nothing to do with the case. The view of the case shows a pointed back board, like the top of an obelisk. This indicates that the original hood could have had a round dial. However, the picture of the hood in the other thread, does show a point behind the swans, which indicates a change or some other adjustment. My main point being, that the hood style is nowhere near the main trunk section. The hood style is a late one, and it is possible that it is a replacement. Such hoods are seen on quite a few "short door" clocks, which for the most part didn't use classical style pillars, they preferred the "domestic" type.

The main part of the case has features that indicate the influence of post Regency, and what is called William IV. A very heavy bulky style. So the case date, is in the region of late 1830s, or even into 1840. These features are: the convex panel on the main door with part of it on the case, itself; the heavy convex moulds above and below the door; the side ornamentation; and the fielded panel on its base. The pics provided in the thread, are not very clear, and pic files too small, so to see the feet is difficult: they look like a form of "french foot".

I show in that thread, a picture of what I think the dial should look like: the hood I show, is from South Wales (UK)
 
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laprade

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laprade

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Another fine case can be seen in this link.

http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?p=589168#post589168

The thread is hosted by Klokwiz, aka, Joe, who has posted another clock here.

The clock in the picture, you will see, is a fine example of a London (UK) style.

Things to note. Corinthian columns on the hood and trunk, and brass inlays. Medallion veneer inlays in the style of Hepplewhite.

The base has bun feet, which is unusual, more often found on scots clocks.

The case was obviously a very expensive one, and was made, either in London, for a wealthy colonial official, or made by an immigrant London trained cabinetmaker. You will often see very tall LC clocks in stately homes, because they had to fit in with the large nature of such places.

This sort of quality clock is not commonly available for the public to view, as most are in private collections, and not publicised, so if you get a chance, go and have a look at it, and make notes.
 

laprade

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This link

http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=78349

will take you to a real gem of an oak case. Late 18th century. long door. Square dial.

Things to note: the sculpting of the trunk door façade. Dental frieze work on the swans. The case has neat bracket feet, otherwise it is quite plain: no decoration on the trunk.

The clock has at the moment a later square painted dial, which besides being the wrong size, is not the type that would have been fitted to such a high quality case.

Just for the case alone, it is worth keeping and having. The movement, is neither here nor there.
 

laprade

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Those of you who have gone over to Klokwiz's thread on the fine Willard case, should have a look at the link below, which gives some more information on the cases used by Willard.

http://www.garysullivanantiques.com/...1/Default.aspx

Also to add some more to the previous post on this thread (). Now that better pictures are available, you can see examples of "check stringing" or "ladder stringing" on parts of the case.

This makes this case all the more interesting, in assessing its age. As Tom says in that thread, the clock is a bridge between styles, and the introduction of mahogany.
 

laprade

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I'm going to put up a display of french cases, and do a comparison. If anyone has a good picture of a french case, could you email them to me. Please don't post them, as it will only get confusing. I want to show the styles with some dating etc.

culturegap@sfr.fr

files up to 3mb, please, so as they can be split and detailed.

credits will be given for examples.

thanks
 

laprade

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This link will take you to a nice clean case from the North East of the UK; Bishopwearmouth, a township in the borough town of Sunderland.


http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=78701

Things to note; very similar to scots flat tops, with the exception that it has separate hood pillars, and subsequently, a pivot hood door. The clock is heavily inlaid with boxwood stringing.

The trunk door has a broken arched top and is crossbanded, and the trunk sides are chamfered and inlaid. The base has a framed center panel of veneer. The feet are a type of "french foot". Like its scots relatives, its trunk is a bit on the thick side.
 

Jeremy Woodoff

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Here is an update of an earlier post from page 3 of this thread in which I describe my oldest clock, a tall case made by Pieter Klock, Amsterdam, about 1700. I noted that the hood of the clock almost surely originally had either a caddy top or carving. I would like to hear your comments about the change shown below. I am hesitant to make any change to a 300+ year old clock, and the crest carving shown is not permanently attached to the case. I made it up from hand carvings available from the Van Dyke's Restorers catalog. It consists of a pair of scrolls, with the center section having been cut out of a larger ornament.

What do you think? An improvement or not?
 

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oldcat61

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This is my favorite thread & it's been dead for ages! A guest was commenting over the holiday how pretty our John Key LC is. My hubby said he would still like a flat top but so many are ugly or top heavy. We were wondering if there is some kind of Golden Rule or mathematical formula for pleasing design? Like a painting composition or a building? Let's get some lively discussion going! Sue
 

soaringjoy

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What do you think? An improvement or not?
A marvelous topping for your clock, Jeremy!
I couldn't really decide, what's better looking; best to switch by
the month. ;)

Sue, you're right, it has been quiet here for a while.
Yes, I suppose cabinet makers would know something like a
"golden rule", at least concerning the proportions of the cases.
Alas, I'm not the one to answer the question; let's wait and see,
who'll drop in on this topic.

And BTW, it's you guys and gals keeping the forum alive with your
posts and contributions - the team can't do everything; I have blisters
from typing already! :D

Jurgen
 

oldcat61

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Have you all run out of LC photos? I didn't mean to imply someone's cherished clock was ugly, just that styles change & we all perceive proportion a bit differently. Maybe I'm trying to get into the casemaker's head. Were the regional styles following a trend in furniture or house design? I love the examples of a case( or even dial) maker clinging to the older look. Hoping the English gurus chime in on this - come on Laprade, confuse me even more! Sue
 

Just-in-time

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attachment.jpg attachment.jpg


I have post this as a new tread yesterday with little response, so I am adding on to this one.
This clock belongs to a friend of mine and I do not have access to it, as it is a long distance from my home.
She is too old to get the hood off and get to the movement.
She has sent me 2 pictures and from the painted dial, I am think 1820 - 1870 (she thinks it is older).
Can anyone tell me any more.
Rope to wind movement.
The second hand runs backwards and dial is painted on to reflect that ?
Later modification? Some input or links to this kind of case or clock would be deeply appreciated.
 

sinniss

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Here are some pictures of my Benjamin Anns tall case clock. Brass dial, beautifully (I think) engraved - was it originally silvered? and oak case. I have not yet done ay restoration, or attached the weights and pendulum to see what id anything works.
I would imagine by the re-positioned wind holes that it is a replacement works.

I don't know very much about it. I bought it from someone here in Ontario, who's father inherited it, and passed it on to my seller. I am delighted to have what I think is such a nicely proportioned case with such a beautifully engraved dial and is some 266 years old.
-Steve
 

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novicetimekeeper

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Here are some pictures of my Benjamin Anns tall case clock. Brass dial, beautifully (I think) engraved - was it originally silvered? and oak case. I have not yet done ay restoration, or attached the weights and pendulum to see what id anything works.
I would imagine by the re-positioned wind holes that it is a replacement works.

I don't know very much about it. I bought it from someone here in Ontario, who's father inherited it, and passed it on to my seller. I am delighted to have what I think is such a nicely proportioned case with such a beautifully engraved dial and is some 266 years old.
-Steve
Hi Steve,
It's a very long and old thread so I have missed the bit where you get the date so accurately. How did you do that? Is it an American or English clock?

It is an unusual design of dial. At the end of the 18th century when painted dial clocks were gaining popularity there was a period of flat sheet brass dials without separate chapter rings and spandrels being fully engraved and silvered. I think this was more common in Southern England particularly as painted dial clocks were mostly produced in the midlands.

Your dial appears to be two piece with the centre separate. How is the movement attached, can we see it? Are those dial feet riveted at the bottom of the face? Does it have one attachment at the top and two on the bottom? That is the usual way to attach a 30 hour movement in the UK.
 

sinniss

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Hi Steve,
It's a very long and old thread so I have missed the bit where you get the date so accurately. How did you do that? Is it an American or English clock?

It is an unusual design of dial. At the end of the 18th century when painted dial clocks were gaining popularity there was a period of flat sheet brass dials without separate chapter rings and spandrels being fully engraved and silvered. I think this was more common in Southern England particularly as painted dial clocks were mostly produced in the midlands.

Your dial appears to be two piece with the centre separate. How is the movement attached, can we see it? Are those dial feet riveted at the bottom of the face? Does it have one attachment at the top and two on the bottom? That is the usual way to attach a 30 hour movement in the UK.
Hi Nick.
Well, I have very little real idea of the exact year, but was told 1750, based on when the maker ... was ... making; Benjamin Anns from Highworth in England. The guy I bought it from had no idea about the maker since he interpreted the script in the engraving to read Beryl Anns, and was therefore unable to trace it on-line or otherwise. Benj. Anns was active sometime before 1750 and up to 1760 or later. It is an English clock; English oak case and of course the Highworth identification on the dial. Brought over to Canada from England by the father of the guy I bought it from.
The dial feet are riveted at the bottom as you can perhaps tell in the pics. Sorry all if they are too many of essentially the same thing. -Steve
20160420-_SIA0977.jpg 20160420-_SIA0978.jpg 20160420-_SIA0979.jpg 20160420-_SIA0980.jpg 20160420-_SIA0981.jpg 20160420-_SIA0983.jpg 20160420-_SIA0985.jpg 20160420-_SIA0987.jpg
 

Jeremy Woodoff

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Steve, these are very interesting pictures. My Benjamin Anns clock is posted at the end of page 2 of this thread, and there are some interesting comparisons. I want to wait to comment until I go home and look at my clock in detail, but I would say that I don't think the two filled holes on your dial are former winding holes. They are too low and wide apart for that, and great wheels in that location would interfere with the seat board. I think they may be damaged rivets for dial feet, as novicetimekeeper suggests. Photos of the back of the dial and movement would be helpful. (I see these have just been added to the post above.)

It is interesting that there is no sign of silvering on your dial, even though this style was typically silvered. There is also no sign of silvering on the chapter ring, name disc, or date ring on my clock, even though silvering was also typical on this style of dial. I wonder if this might have been a quirk of Benj. Anns' clocks. The engraving on my dial is absolutely first-rate, as it is on yours, and the maker's name and place are engraved in the same style on both clocks.
 
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novicetimekeeper

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Yes I think the marks are dial feet. However the dial feet appear to have been made from old plate pillars. There are unused holes in the centre part of the dialplate hidden by the rest of the dialplate.

The movement itself doesn't appear to have unused holes so perhaps the dialfeet were placed to suit it but I don't think they have always been together. I think 1750 is much too early for a flat sheet dial but I don't actually know when they came in without looking it up for an opinion.
 

Jeremy Woodoff

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I may have misrepresented the year for Benj. Anns. The books list one year for him--1770. James Anns, presumably his son, is listed as either married or master in 1777. That would mean that Benj's working dates would extend well before 1770, which makes sense because the characteristics of my clock would put it at around 1750 if not earlier. From what I can tell, single-sheet silvered brass dials began to appear around 1780, as did the type of hands on your clock. Of course, your dial is not a single sheet. None of my books shows anything like it--that is, a two-sheet dial with engraved spandrels. The dial pillars sure do look like adapted movement pillars, but I would reserve judgement on whether the whole set up isn't original. I've attached a few photos of my dial to show the quality of the engraving and similarities to your clock. The hands on mine are replaced. The cases also have some similar characteristics. There is no brass anywhere, including on the hood columns, except for the brass keyhole escutcheons, which are nearly identical on the two clocks. The completely plain oak plinth also looks similar, even to being made up of two horizontal boards, a wider one on top and a narrower one below. (The photos of my clock on p. 2 of this thread show these features.)
IMG_7408.JPG IMG_7407.JPG IMG_7405.JPG
 
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Sooth

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As has been mentioned, this dial was likely originally "full silver" because of the style where the chapter ring isn't a separate piece. That said, on this particular clock, I think I would leave it exactly as-is. When it comes to higher end London type longcases, I perefer seeing restored and silvered dials (high style), but with a fairly folksy looking oak case, I find it looks better with the aged brass dial as-is. Something about the combination of bright silver and brownish oak just seems to clash (my opinion).

It's certainly a lovely piece, whether or not it's all correct and original. I think we'd need to see some additional images with the dial removed to make better guesses. To me, the dial might have originally been a 30 hour (no winding holes) with a "pull-up" type movement, but then again, the winding holes are positioned where they don't interfere with any of the engravings, so it's not impossible to believe that it might have been an 8 day from the start.

The dial does, however, seem to have quite a lot of rivets and pillar holes (or filled casting flaws) such as the one between the 4 and 5 on the edge. The dial pillars are also very odd. Perhaps the clockmaker tried to save on costs by making them from flawed (or spare) movement pillars (especially since they don't all match). With the way that the internal plate is cut into an octagon, it's also possible that this dial was made up from 2 old dials combined (thus the odd combo of "full silver" style exterior, and old 30 hour style centre portion.

Unfortunately, taking the dial apart will be too difficult (and potentially damaging) to check, since all the rivets would need to be popped free.
 

Jeremy Woodoff

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The two pieces of the dial seem to be held together with screws rather than rivets, so it may be possible to easily separate them.
 

novicetimekeeper

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The two pieces of the dial seem to be held together with screws rather than rivets, so it may be possible to easily separate them.

I'm wondering if the big unused holes in the central part of the dialplate are where the feet from the original chapter ring came through. The cropped corners of this section mean that you have lost any possible holes for original separate spandrels.

Like Sooth I wondered if this were originally a 30 hour clock, I note that one of the drillings for the dialplate to access the winding arbours is off centre. 30 hour clocks have three mounting points on the dial usually, 8 day clocks have 4. That's why I asked about the dial feet.

I have never seen the use of recycled movement pillars to make dialfeet, anything is possible and brass was very expensive in the 18th century. However it seems odd, to me, that an original clock maker would have a stock of different pillars, the knops are different sizes and look like they originated on different clocks.

It seems like a huge amount of work with no really good reason behind it. The rear section of the dialplate seems to be from a smaller dial, but the easiest was to accommodate such small differences in the case is to alter the mask on the hood.
 

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