TALL- LONG CASE / GRANDFATHER CLOCK: CASE STYLES: PRE 1860: A study.

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by laprade, Oct 17, 2009.

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  1. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Laprade, would you be interested in photos of a Scottish clock made in Paisley? It's a brass dial and the makers name was Matt Wylie. I think he died in the 1790's.
     
  2. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    MQ; your pictures will be very welcome. Thanks: looking forward to seeing them.
     
  3. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Ok, but will be tonight before I can take some. I'll get them up for your viewing pleaure tonight or in the AM.:D
     
  4. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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  5. harold bain

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    Charles, here is a picture from earlier in this thread of a clock with a swan neck top:
    attachment.jpg
    Hard to tell from your pictures if anything was ever on the top or not.
     
  6. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    Many LC clocks ended up in houses with lower ceilings, so it's not unusual for swan necks to be removed or even bases and/or trunks to be shortened.
     
  7. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    OK, here's mine. Purchased in 1989. I have correspondence with the Paisley museum and two clock men in England that dated it between 1770-1780. I know the finial is wrong and one of the clock dealers stated that the minute and hour hands were from the 19th. century.
     

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  8. Mike306p/Ansoniaman

    Mike306p/Ansoniaman Registered User

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    A very classy clock you have there. You are two for two here and on your astronomical clock . Both are very nice Mel,:) Mike.
     
  9. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Thanks again Mike. I seem to "luck" into some nice clocks.
     
  10. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    laumeg The example shown by Harold, isn't quite what we need: it isn't from a scots clock. It shows the english type of swans found on english "flat top" clocks. To avoid duplication, the subject is covered below, in my thoughts on MQ's clock.

    MQ, a very nice clock indeed, and with some very interesting aspects.

    Very often some scots clock sellers/makers used english made cases, such as Sue's Dumbarton, shown earlier in the thread. The case on the Paisley clock is in my view from the Newcastle area, where they used a style similar to the scots flat tops, but with a lot of very flamboyant decoration, and slightly different proportions: less solid looking. (The same sort of style is also found in the Bristol area). Other differences are: hood pillars and pivot hinges for the hood door.

    MQ 5.jpg

    Hoods with free-standing pillars have to have pivot hinges, whereas scots flat tops usually have cabinet hinges and no pillars. Scots flat tops have smaller swans which are set in from the sides. So, I think that the maker or the purchaser decided on a non scots type case: something more flamboyant.

    MQ 4.jpg

    The dial has some very interesting features which again are not very scottish. The engraving on the chapter is decidedly continental, and is found on danish and swedish clocks, and such a dial turned up here on a thread about a clock with a comtoise (french) movement. Other examples also exist on continental clocks.

    The spandrel decoration is extremely english and again, I think, is deliberate: to give the clock a distinctive air.

    Because the dial is numbered, not a common practice among makers in the Uk, but very common in Denmark, it can be dated. However I suspect that the case looks a tad on the late side, but this anomaly often arises in scots clocks, which don't conform to regimented style sequences, as do those south of the border.

    MQ 2.jpg

    The base of the clock isn't typical to the normal scots flat top: it has the lighter look found south of the border.

    Overall, despite the mysteries, the clock is of a superior quality: there is no doubt about that.

    I need a favour about the dial, so I'll email or PM you.
     
  11. oldcat61

    oldcat61 Registered User
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    I hate to be picky/petty but the case on my John Key, Dumbarton, LC is NOT English made. It may be London-style but, according to the museum in Dumbarton, the cases were made locally. One clue would be the Scottish thistle sound frets on the side. They're on every one of his known clocks & I can't see an Englishman carving such a Scots symbol. Keep posting more examples - I love the variety. Sue ( and Nessie )
     
  12. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Sue, sorry about that: I didn't mean specifically made in England and transported, though I have read recently of some cases that were actually transported from London! Hard to believe, when you think of travel arrangements in those days. (Dr. Johnson was quoted as saying, when asked about his visit to the giant's causeway: "worth seeing, but not worth going to see" or words to that effect! )

    I was told recently that the Adam brothers were responsible for encouraging english style cases, and even bringing english trained cabinetmakers to Scotland, to further their neoclassicisist ideals.
     
  13. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    MQ: You mentioned a comment on the hands of your scots clock: They are scots hands, even though they may be late in style.
     

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  14. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Laprade, I mentioned that because I sent photos of this clock to the Paisely Museum back in 1989. They gave me history on the maker, then forwarded the pics to Felix Hudson, Ltd., and Kenneth Chapelle. Both Felix and Kenneth said that the clock appeared to be 1775-1780 vintage and was correct except for the hands. Mr. Hudson stated the minute and hour hands were 19th century replacements. Mr. Chapelle said that the hands appeared to be brass which would make them Victorian and not correct for this clock. He also mentioned that the correct ones should be blued steel. Does that sound correct to you?
     
  15. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Yes, MQ, the right hands would be steel. Steel hands were hand made, whereas, the brass ones could be stamped out, with decoration, or have decoration applied after, with punches.
     
  16. jezster

    jezster Registered User

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    #266 jezster, Feb 25, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2011
    Well after reading through all the threads, on this post, I realise I am a little late putting pictures up of my flat top longcase.
    It has a early feature of calendar dial in the arch, the works & dial belong to each other & I beleive the clock to be early first quarter of the 1700's.
    The clock is about 6 feet 10 inches tall, the base around the plinth, has been altered, before I bought it.I can see the reason being rot, caused by damp floors.
    Brian Loomes told me, that the maker Thomas Davenport is from my home town, & that he was apprenticed to Philip Antrobus
    It has a origional oak backboard, also a lenticle in the door, & glass windows in the side of the hood.
    The hood door pillars are attached to the door.
    There are all the signs of a early dial, the ring turned winding holes, the matting to the dial, the diamond half hour markers, & in the minute dial between 50 to 55 is a small cross showing the seven & a half minutes this cross is repeated between 5 & 10, 20 & 25 & 35 to 40.
    The quarter hours marked on the inner of the chapter ring. All good signs of early dials.
    The works have all the origional arbors & early domed colletts.
     

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  17. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Thanks jezster, a fine example of a provincial flat top.


    note the hood pillars are part of the door.

    davenport%20003.jpg

    I also like the decoration above the door, which isn't a common feature.

    The base might have been fiddled with, but sideways panels aren't a problem. The clock probably had double plinth, as that seems to be present in a lot of bulls eye door clocks. Probably a bit too early for anything like brackets or ogee, and they rarely accompany the very long doors with the glasses.

    Have you looked closely at the top of the hood:no signs of anything having been there?

    I have brightened up the images, to show off the nice detail and wood.
     

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  18. jezster

    jezster Registered User

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    Hi Laprade,
    thank you for brightening the pictures & your knowledge, the top of the hood, has two holes drilled in the left & right on the very top, I take it the clock may have had a finial either side?
    I need two lead weights, as it came with old cast iron weights & I had to put another rod & pendulum on, due to the old bob having the lead shaved off the back, I could see it had been rubbing on the backboard, this was due to the clock not being in a upright position.
    I have had to fasten a piece of wood at the back of the backboard to get the clock to stand upright due to my wall leaning backwards & then screw the case to the wall.
    It is a very nice clock that I do not run very often, as I do not want to wear anything out.
    I was very surprised that it had not had any arbors etc changed on it, in it's long life.
    I do not think the bell is origional,even though it is old, as in the backboard, opposite the bell is a chiselled out piece in the shape of a part bell, so I think it would have had one of the early larger bells, when made
    The earliest clock I ever had was a Lantern clock from 1680 which I sold to Brian Loomes around 2 years ago.
    It was like being in a museum when I visited Brians Farm & saw a lot of early clocks in his barn.
    thank you again for your input.
    Jez
     
  19. makeshift

    makeshift Banned

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    Hello, I am Donal, Jarlath's nephew, and I have come down with a small group to do a workshop on clock cases, with laprade. My uncle is no longer able to use the board due to bad eyes, and has moved away from Dublin, but wants me to keep the "makeshift" name, and carry on for him. I have helped him on the computer before, when he used the board.

    While we are here we are going to study this thread and I am going to take up the challenge to describe the clock shown some time back, where laprade asked for volunteers to identify it. That will be in a couple of days.

    Donal
     
  20. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    jezster; sorry for not answering your question about the hood holes. The london clocks generally had finials, as opposed to some of the provincial ones. The problem that will never have a really satisfactory answer, is, are the holes original or later. If later, then : how later. To get an answer, you will have to do some searching in books and the clock sites. Generally, the older finials did not have screw threads, but tapered square spikes for fixing, so careful examination of the holes, may give you a clue.

    In the previous post, Donal mentions a study group. It just so happens that some friends of his were coming down in a minibus to play some gigs for Saint Patricks, in Toulouse, and Donal and two others hitched a ride: they go back on Sunday. If it works out well, then we may do it again.
     
  21. jezster

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    Hi Laprade,
    the holes are just the same type that would be used for dowels similar to vienna clocks. I quite like the clock as it is, so they have never bothered me.
    I did not really celebrate St Patricks myself as I was at the funeral of my brother, as we have Irish background from my mothers side Gallagher from Cork.
    I await others now adding to this thread as I like the pictures & the information.:)
     
  22. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    Hi all, attached are some photos of a Chinoiserie longcase with a movement signed John Warner of Draycott. The frame of the case is Oak with a black base with raised gold and red painting of Chinese images. There is also a lenticle with a later plinth base.

    Brian Loomes has published an excellent article about the Warner family of clockmakers. I believe this one was probably made by John Warner II and dates to around 1730.

    Here is a link to Brian's article:
    http://www.brianloomes.com/collecting/warner/index.html

    Happy to take some further photos or try uploading some higher resolution photos if these arent sufficient. Would be interested in your thoughts.

    Cheers
    Dean
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Hi all, here is another clock which has a regional look to the case. It is circa 1800 with a mahogany case and painted dial. The movement was made by Simpson of Yarmouth. The case has beautiful mahogany but is in need of some serious restoration along with the movement. Cheers Dean
     

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  23. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    Hi all, while I am on a roll i will add another clock to Laprade excellent thread. It is a clock by Benjamin Smith of Alfreton. The case has a round dial and is oak with mahogany cross banding.

    I believe Smith often had his movement made by the well known maker of John Whitehurst of Derby and this movement fits many of the features by which his clocks are known. I believe Whitehurst was the first clockmaker to introduce round dials for longcase clocks as the following extract describes.

    John Whitehurst FRS, of Derby (1713-1788) pioneered the round dial in from 1760, writing to his friend James Ferguson that he failed to see the point in a square dial when the action of the hands was rotative; to make the change would also save the expense of cast brass spandrels, separate chapter ring, pounced centres, etc., making his excellent quality clocks more affordable for ordinary people. The earliest dated examples are 1760 and 1761 and they set a distinctive east and north midlands trend.

    Cheers
    Dean
     

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  24. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    #274 laprade, Mar 26, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2011
    Thanks Dean, it was worth the wait, especially with the other clocks! I'll do the other two first, as the images on the lacquered one need adjusting.

    (NB; for some strange reason, the spellchecker is not on the screen, !)


    Benjamin Smith of Alfreton, oak clock with round brass dial: 30hr.
    Things to note when describing this very nice clock.
    The quarter fluted columns with doric caps and bases, give the clock a sophisticated look.

    Smith1 - Copie.jpg

    I suspect that the feet have been replaced with the plain plinth. The bottom mould on the trunk is a double reverse: convex under concave. The base board shows some nice modullary rays, which you get with quarter sawn oak.
    Benjamin Smith of Alfreton - Copie (2).jpg

    The rounded corners of the door with its crossbanding, makes a nice change from the normal square corners of a lot of long door clocks. Readers should note that the rounded corners are slightly stepped, as was the norm for rounded corners. The top mould of the trunk is a single plain concave curvetto, supported by a cock bead.

    Smith1.jpg

    The hood has brass caps and bases on fluted columns, and note it has a whole door and no separate opening bezel. The hands are exceptional for a round faced clock, and would not look out of place on a mid 18th c top of the range clock.
    Benjamin Smith of Alfreton - Copie.jpg
     
  25. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    #275 laprade, Mar 26, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2011
    Well I have managed to rectify my system and all is hopefully back to normal.

    Mahogany Simpson of Yarmouth clock; kindly lent by Dean T, all the way from down under!

    One of the first clocks in this thread was from Colchester in Essex, which is not far from Norfolk, and you will see similarities. The style is found also in Kent, south of the river, and some of the features include the decorative fretwork above the broken arch of the hood,
    hood crown.jpg
    and the broken arch on the trunk door. The other feature of the door, is the double moulded "cock bead" that frames the centre flame veneer panel.
    trunk door top.jpg
    This clock shows clearly why most collectors prefer mahogany to oak in the later clocks. The mahogany just has that glow.
    Simpson of Yarmouth.jpg
    A really interesting feature is the ladder stringing that runs down the mason's mitre (oxford mould) on either side of the trunk. Also note that the sides of the trunk façade are veneered in crossbanding: not a very common feature.
    ladder veneer.jpg crossbanding.jpg trunk-mid section.jpg
    The escutcheon plate is an applied one, one would expect an inlaid one: brass or ivory. (same goes for the hood)

    The base unfortunately has been cut, and the two other corner inlays have been lost. The feet would either have been "french" or "turned", I doubt if they would have been "bracket" or "ogee". The clock is very Hepplewhite, with all the inlays and the mason's mitre, and that would lead to french feet, probably "splayed".
    base section.jpg

    The hood door shows how the glasses on these clocks are held in place. The door crossbanded veneer actually does the job, and you can see some distress. The finial posts are faced with fluted pieces: one missing.
    hood.jpg

    As I said, the clock has strong Hepplewhite influence and the hood has a shell inlay on the centre of the crown. The hood pillars are fluted with doric caps and bases. As I said above, a very desirable clock, a real "stunner".
     
  26. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    While I am on a roll here is another one to look at.

    Clockmaker - Armstrong, Thomas of Hawkshead and Kendal

    Clock maker Thomas Armstrong was born about 1755. In 1778 he married Barbara Johnson in Hawkshead Church. He was certainly still recorded as the Town clockmaker in 1781. It is thought that his Son, Thomas(2) was born about this time. It is thought that he moved to Kendal (about 10 miles from Hawkshead) as a clockmaker of this name was working there at about this date (c1780-1790). Thomas may also have been working at Cracken Mill, near Ulverston in 1794. Thomas numbered some of his clocks on the frontplate. Thomas may have worked for/with Jonas Barber junior for a while as his clocks feature some similarities to Barber clocks.
    His son, Thomas(2) carried on as a clock maker, but worked in Milnethorpe, Lancaster and Warton

    Sources:
    Brian Loomes, Watchmakers & Clockmakers Of The World Vol 2 (2nd Edition), Pub NAG Press 1989 ISBN 0 7198 0250 4
    Brian Loomes, Westmoreland Clocks and Clockmakers, Pub David & Charles
    Susan Stuart, Clockmaking in the Lancaster Region, Pub Lancaster City Museums, Date unknown
    Brian Loomes, Clockmakers of Northern England, Pub Mayfield Books 1997 ISBN 0 9523270 5 8

    Movement and Dial

    The clock movement is 30 hour although it has fake 8-day winding holes and winding mechanism. Typical of makers from Northern England the clock has a round silvered dial and a brass backing plate. The silver dial is lightly engraved with flowers and floral motifs. It would appear that the T in Thomas Armstrong’s signature is an after thought, as the engraving is not centered. There are also date markers around the outside of the chapter ring however the clock had never had a date mechanism. The movement also has a rack strike which is rare on a 30-hour clock. Maybe Thomas changed his mind about making a more complex 8 day clock while is the middle of making the clock?

    Case

    The case is solid oak. The hood features swan neck pediments, a wooden central finial, hood columns and fret work around the door. The trunk has dentil moulding and quarter columns. The base features further moulding and mahogany cross banding.

    Cheers
    Dean
     

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  27. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Dean, I know you people "down under" live life upside down, and are hanging on to mother earth by gravity, so I have stood your clocks up!
    house%20photos%20005 - Copie.jpg
    Just a few extra points, to add to you well researched points.

    The hood, has swan necks in the "scots flat-top manner" : applied and not integral to the hood. The fretting also gets its influence from over the border, and it should be noted that the frets are part of the hood door. The hood pillars are in the doric style. The Hood is supported by a single curvetto mould over a cock bead, above which is a "fluted frieze". Dean, sorry to correct you, but a dental frieze is made of solid blocks set apart.
    house%20photos%20006.jpg

    The trunk section quartered columns are fluted, with doric caps and bases. Its door is simple round arched and mahogany crossbabded. The trunk section also has a plain frieze, supported by a strongly moulded beading. The escutcheon plate is an applied brass one, with symmetrical top and bottom.

    trunk section.jpg trunk frieze.jpg escutcheon plate.jpg

    The base is of a fine quality, with mitred corners on its top mould and frame. The frame corners are fluted. The front panel has a (proud) raised convex cornered panel, which is mahogany crossbanded. The feet are a simple bracket, which follow the mitred frame. The base top moulding is a multi moulded one, as opposed to the simpler top mould of the trunk.
    base section.jpg

    The quartered fluted columns in doric style are often associated with a Sheraton influence, while the mitred base, is a Chippendale device.
     
  28. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    #278 laprade, Mar 28, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011
    Georead, has lent us this late yorkshire clock, which I think is important to the thread, because of the fielded panels used on the trunk door and base.
    bolton halifax.jpg
    The hood is very typical of the late yorkshire clocks, in being quite "fat". Note the scalloped backing to the hood.
    hood.jpg

    The trunk section has quartered columns, (can't tell if they are decorated) with doric caps and bases. The door is a short one, but below "center", leaving a blank space above, when really speaking, it should be the same level as the tops of the columns. The top mould that supports the hood, is plain curvetto, with a small cock bead. The door which is mortise and tenon framed, has a chamfered fielded panel, and the door seems to have no escutcheon plate; probably an inset "cabinet" type in brass.
    trunk.jpg

    The base has a chamfered fielded panel and small "button" type feet. The panel has a quite nice flame grain, in contrast to the rest of the clock, which is in a plain mahogany.
    base.jpg

    As this clock isn't the "usual" one finds in short doors, it is quite possible that it was made locally for the seller, by someone who made furniture that wasn't veneered.
     
  29. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Just a quick note about classical orders (styles).

    You will have noticed that "Doric" is the commonest of the orders, when we look at pillars.

    It so happens that an interesting french portico clock has been posted, which has "Ionic" column tops. I suggest you have a look at it and make a note. Ionic, is the one order that has two separate aspects, whereas Doric is the same from whatever angle you look, and Corinthian the highly decorated one with floral motifs, with four identical corner points, also looks the same from every angle. There is a variation of greek Ionic, and that is "pompean Ionic" where the scrolls are turned and face out from each corner, dispensing with the "side scrolling" as seen in the original greek.

    Ionic is quite often found on some american pillar and scroll clocks, and later mantel clocks.

    http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?p=543886#post543886
     
  30. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Dean T's Warner of Draycott, lacquered case.

    I am taking the chance to compare this square dial case with the other case, posted earlier by Jeremy.

    Dean's clock still has the vestiges of the early "dutch influence" on english clockmaking, whereas Jeremy's case shows the "chinese" influence which came with the reign of Queen Anne.
    two lacqueres.jpg

    The base on Dean's clock, I think should be a double plinth or ball feet.
    IMG_3670.jpg

    The door on Dean's clock is the complete length of the trunk, and totally square, with just a convex mould surround. Nice strap hinges on the door, and the bull's eye glass. Note that the trunk has no woodwork decoration and is not much wider than the door.

    frontupper.jpg bulls sye.jpg strap hinge.jpg

    The hood has fretwork, which is quite common on older square top clocks, but unusual to find on a lacquered case, which normally relies on painting for its decoration. The hood pillars are part of the door and are in doric style, as are the rear pilasters. I think that the caps and bases are gilt wood (?)
    frontwithmovement.jpg hoodside.jpg

    The pictures of the seatboard supports show nicely that the clock is made of good quarter sawn oak. Including the back board.

    sidetop2.jpg

    Thanks Dean for the loan of your fine clock, and of course, Jeremy also.
     
  31. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Dean, tells me that the caps and bases of the hood pillars are gilt wood.

    I didn't describe the moulds on the trunk and base, as I'm sure regular readers will see that for themselves.

    For new readers: the purpose of this thread is to familiarize you with observing the details of the cases, and getting used to remember them, because, there will be occasions when you will have to describe a clock to an interested party! They will want to hear more than it being a tall clock and old!
     
  32. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    Thanks to Stephen for his comments. Obviously an expert!

    I have attached a close-up photo of the Chinoiserie which is gilt paintwork on a black background.

    Cheers Dean

    PS It is the right way up this time!
     

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  33. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    #283 laprade, Apr 1, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011
    Dean; thanks for confidence! s to expertize, I'm just touching the surface. There are others who will have forgotten more than I will ever know!

    A point on posting pictures. Vista and later applications, have a built in facility for enhancing pictures. The top menu bar, when you open a picture file, give several choices. Amongst the "changes" (I have a french machine, and it says "corriger") section there is a facility to lighten and darken whole pictures. On the same principal as "raw", the whole image can be altered.

    I had a go at your last image, Dean, and it showed a nice little brass escutcheon plate, and brought out the art work.
    chino%20close%20up.jpg

    I also went looking for an example of the pompeian Ionic, and found only one clearish image, from the temple at Pompey. You can see how the corners are turned out, in the same way as Corinthian.
    pompeian Ionic.jpg

    I also found this very clear page from an old encyclopedia. The top ones are Doric, then you have the two versions of Ionic, followed by the Corinthian.

    The one that really matters, is the view of the greek Ionic. You will see what I was saying about it being "2 faced". The side view, alas not shown, just consists of repeats of the front scrolls, till they reach the other side, which is the same as the face.
    classical orders.png
     
  34. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    I thought I'd do a sketch, but the scanner is buried under a load of papers, so I used the tablet. Not the best of my drawings, but it shows what I mean about the 2 faces of the Ionic.
     

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  35. wmoorev

    wmoorev Registered User

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    Greetings - I have recently aquired a tall case clock and had some questions; the topic of this forum seemed the most appropriate.

    I am hoping I have attached two pictures for ease of viewing. Now the story...

    My problem/question relates to the bonnet and dial. You will notice from the photo, that the arch at the top of the door is not the same proportion as that of the dial. So in other words, the reveal between the wood and the dial is small at the top of the radius, and it gets wider at the sides, instead of maintaining a uniform reveal.

    My knee jerk reaction upon seeing this is that the dial/works are not original to the case, but both also seem to be "correct" for one another by age and style.

    You will note this dial is labeled "A Johnston" and "Hagerstown", and looking through a resource book, Maryland Clockmakers, it appears the signature and the "H" of the Hagerstown are correct. For clarification, the dial is stamped on the back, "Walker & Hughes", which I have also learned through another forum to be an English made dial.

    And the case is solid cherry, no veneer, and it also seems quite appropriate for the time of Arthur Johnston, as well as the geographic area and style for a western Maryland cabinet maker. In the same above noted book, there is a photo of an Eli Bentley clock with a very similar dial, and a similar case but with some chipendale accents. It would seem quite plausible that Mr. Bentley, from Taneytown (close to Hagerstown), and Mr Johnston may have used the same cabinet maker?

    So is it possible the works belong with the case, or is it a virtual certainty that any quality cabitmaker would have married the radius of the bonnet to that of the dial, and that the two are not original to one another?

    Any remarks or opinions would be sincerely appreciated. Thank you!

    face.jpg

    Full.jpg
     
  36. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    Hi,

    Looks like a nice case and movement. Probably the easiest way to establish if the movement and case are associated is to remove the hood and look at how the seatboard sits on the cheeks of the case. Is there any packing under the seatboard? Do the holes in the seatboard line up with the holes in the case cheeks? A photo would probably allow the experts on this site to give you an opinion. Cheers Dean
     
  37. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    wmoorev: Thanks for your contribution, and nice sized picture files, which allow close inspection!

    Generally speaking, if the dial doesn't fit properly, then it is assumed that there has been a change somewhere in the history. That generally applies to imported (shipped) clocks, as some of the shippers and their agents etc, were quite lax in how they arranged things! The cabinet maker may have made a mistake, or been given the wrong measurements:no one will ever know.
    Full - Copie.jpg
    I have enhanced the pictures to show how nice the clock is, and give a commentary to be in keeping with the ethos of the thread.

    The whole clock is very striking in its slender look: very elegant and not at all flashy or over done!

    The hood has plain bulge turned pillars, front and back, with caps and bases that follow no particular classical order. The swans have inlaid stars, which indicate a slight Hepplewhite influence. There are three wooden finials: a large center one and two smaller side pieces: all in the traditional ball and spike style. The upper section of the hood, is plain, with just a hint of a cock bead above the door. The swan moulds are also plain and very subdued. Full - Copie (3).jpg

    The trunk (mid section) has a long door with a broken arch top, and there is a strong rounded bead as an edging. (I can't tell if it is on the case, or the door). Note the quartered sides, which are plain rounded and subdued. Nice strong applied keyhole escutcheon. The top mould, (hood support) is a plain concave with top and bottom steps, while the bottom mould is a double reverse concave/convex with a small cock bead at the top. The cabinetmaker took the trouble to find a nice piece of flamed wood for the door panel.
    Full - Copie (4).jpg

    The base has a fielded panel, and slender tall bracket feet, not quite "french feet" but close, and tend to show again a trace of Hepplewhite. Note the subdued quartering on the front sides of the base. For some reason, the maker didn't think it worth filling the fielded panel with a flame, as he did with the trunk door.
    Full - Copie (2).jpg
    As many readers will know, I think that in many cases (ptp) I think that the collectible value of some clocks, relies on the cases, and the innards come a second! In this instance, I think the quality of the case, far outweighs any doubts about the provenance of the movement.

    wmoorev; you have a very nice clock!

    I note that the movement has a center sweep seconds hand, and maybe you should show it on another thread: such movements are a sign of quality, and are not very common. I'm sure readers would like to see how the moons work, as that subject often causes some problems.
     
  38. wmoorev

    wmoorev Registered User

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    Thank you DeanT and laprade for your remarks.

    DeanT - to start with your query, there is no easy answer. I have included a photo of the back of the dial, works, and seatboard. Now I do not profess to be an antique expert, but were I a betting man, I would suggest the seatboard is a replacement. The wood species is different, and it does not seem to have the same age characteristics of the rest of the case. And while the holes can align with the case, when they do, the dial is slightly off-center to the bonnet. I had someone suggest to me that seatboards have been known to crack, so it would not be uncommon to see it replaced. By your own experience, is there validity to that remark?

    I have also included pictures of the sides which the seatboard sits upon. You will notice that both the left and right have infill blocks. Now, unlike the seatboard, these infill blocks look to be original, or very old! The nails used to hold them in place look hand forged.

    The next photo to see is that of the top of the case without the bonnnet. In this view, one can see both infill blocks on each side, but you can also see how the side panels of the case were trimmed down at the backboard, since both were originally different lengths. What cannot be seen so well, is that both sides are not exactly level with one another. When I plumb the case, the left side that the seatboard rests upon, is about 1/4 - 3/8" lower than the right side. As long as the case is plumb, the movement keeps exceptional time (this while the seatboard is clearly out of level).

    Also in this same image, one can see the ghost image of something that was clearly mounted on the back panel of the case. There are several holes on the backboard, and I simply cannot guess what was back there?
    The last image is of the underside of the case, showing the construction of the feet. Again, I am no expert, but I do believe the construction methods do seem appropriate for something from the early 1800's. Would you agree?

    And lastly, I am intrigued by your remark about the rarity of the center second hand, and would be happy to share pictures of the movement. Is there a particular forum topic that you would suggest I add a reply?

    Many thanks again to you both. I look forward to your replies.
    Best Regards
    - Willy -

    backside dial.jpg

    case left side infill.jpg

    case right side infill.jpg

    Case top w-o bonnet.jpg

    Tall clock feet.jpg
     
  39. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Thanks Willy for the nice detailed pictures.

    The extensions on the seatboard supports seems to point to the clock originally having, or intended to have had, a wooden movement, with integral wooden dial and seatboard. (I can't put my hands on it at the moment, but I do have some detailed shots of this arrangement) When the clock got the metal faced movement, it was adapted, and as you can see, it was done some time ago, looking at the nails. Another pointer to this being done at the original time of making or very soon afterwards, is the fact that nails were used, as nailing into thin dry well seasoned wood is not always very successful!
    case%20right%20side%20infill.jpg

    Another interesting point is the continuation of the side boards to hold the top of the back board. Most LCs main frame stops with the seatboard rests, and the back board goes on alone. Also note that the backboard is a "one piece" plank.
    backboard.jpg

    The seatboard does look to be recent.
    seatboard.jpg

    The hood supports are in the "english manner", i.e. a mitred mould and not a solid piece. This method used two slides to support the hood, because the thin moulds are too weak. The solid moulds can take the weight. (Picture shows the space behind the moulding) Also note the saw marks on the inside of the moulding. As I have often said: behind the scenes, some of the finish is very rough. Victorian machine made moulds, didn't have such marks.
    hood support.jpg

    The shot of the underside of the base, shows nicely the construction used when the feet are proud: a reinforcing block is hidden behind them to take the weight. In fact, the blocks could even be a continuation of the case main frame. Many clocks of this style, had feet that were part of the frame, as has been shown earlier in the thread.

    external feet.jpg

    As to the date of the clock: the center sweep puts the movement probably before 1800. In english terms, the case would be also before 1800, because of the door. However, my knowledge of american timing is patchy, to say the least, so I'm in the dark, as to that.

    If possible, Willy, can we have a few shots of any "hard ware": hinges, door or hood locks etc
    -> posts merged by system <-
    I forgot to comment on the movement thread. In this section, you could post a thread: LC movement: moons and center sweep seconds. or something like that. Many people post problems they are having with missing moon levers etc, and the workings of the center sweep is also of great interest.
     
  40. georead

    georead Registered User

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    #290 georead, Apr 7, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
    I have been on your thread several times, am learning a lot...Regarding the columns, they are plain, rounded. Although the pendulum is brass, the weights are uncovered lead, hence the solid door.... George Read
     
  41. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    #291 laprade, Apr 7, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
    George, Most pendula were brass fronted, and the weights just plain lead. Later clocks used cast iron, in both weights and pendula.

    Blind doors (solid) were the norm, with early clocks having the bull's eyes, to see the pendulum bob. Complete glass doors tended to be for regulators with fancy weights and pendula: quite often mercury.

    There is no really fixed rule on the use of decorated and non decorated pillars, and if one says one thing, something pops up to contradict!

    In some cases, you will find decorated pillars on the hood, but not on the trunk, or VV.

    Getting back to Willy's clock and my thinking on the extensions to the seatboard supports. I found some pictures of the combined face, and seatboard. If it wasn't to accommodate a wooden dial, then it might just have been a mistake: so they nailed extra bits on!
     

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  42. svenedin

    svenedin Registered User

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    Hello, I have 4 Long case clocks that might be of interest in this thread. The first, a Scottish clock by John Brown of Kilmarnock. This one has a flat top hood, flame mahogany case with bow fronted door, a painted dial showing the continents and a picture of "Burns at the Plough" in the arch. I think this one dates to about 1840 (William IV) but it may be a bit out with the date. The original John "Clockie" Brown was a friend of Burns and is mentioned in one of his poems. I think this might be by his son but I do not know for sure. Clockie Brown worked in Mauchline and my clock is from Kilmarnock, 9 miles away but the John Brown and Burns may be coincidence.

    The second is by Thomas Lister of Halifax and the third an unsigned "rocking ship".

    I also have a very large long case by Smith and Sons of Clerkenwell, London with mercury compensated pendulum and striking westmisnter or whittington on 8 tubular bells. This clock is later than 1860 but may be of interest in terms of the development of case styles. The case is solid mahogany (not veneered) and rather elaborate.

    I'm not good at resizing photos so I will have to ask a friend to help me. If people are interested I will have a go. Incidentally, I looked at the faq for posting photos. I have previously hosted the photos on photobucket and copied the IMG link but how do people post photos that can be clicked on and enlarged? Is there are way of posting photos that people prefer?
     
  43. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    svenedin: your clocks will be very welcome!

    The easiest way to re-size pictures is to use "irfan view". It is a freeware program designed by a fellow in the Vienna Institute. The basic is all you need, and it is available on the web, and very often with computer mags. I can send it to you if you want, and will need a standard email address.

    The program is "stand alone" and does not require rebooting etc. it works on all systems. I have been using it since 1998, and now use the dreaded Vista! with no problems. It even will operate a swain scanner driver, slide shows etc. and allows you to change the file format.

    If you email me, I can give you a tutorial.
     
  44. svenedin

    svenedin Registered User

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    Thank you. I will try irfan view as you suggest. In terms of actually posting the resized picture, how big should the file be? Also, should I host the file externally or just embed the picture on the forum post?
     
  45. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Embedded pictures are best, as if you go to some old threads, you will see that url pictures have gone, leaving a blank.

    When doing a post, click on the "paperclip" symbol above the "text box". This will open a window for searching and uploading. At the bottom of the window (scroll down) you will see the file types and sizes.

    When using irfan, if you have files over 1mb, select "half" in the image> resize window. If under 1mb, use the % selection, and try 75% or so.

    When you down load the program, it comes in two folders: main folder and a sub. You only ever have to use the "red splodge" icon in the main folder: it activates the program. You can copy it and have a short cut on your desk top.

    The whole system is surprizing small in file size!

    I and I'm sure the regulars, will be looking forward to seeing your pictures.
     
  46. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Before I forget:

    The subject of pillars and "orders" needs to be clarified.

    As you will now know, the pillars that belong to the classical orders, are well documented: Doric, Ionic and roman variation, Corinthian.

    The other types come under two main categories: gothic style and domestic (term of my own!)

    Gothic has some variations, e.g. clusters, and the mason's mitre, to name two.

    Domestic turnings / pillars, are used in tables, chairs and staircases. They come in several types, e.g. barley twist, baluster, bobbin.

    I'll get together some images and sketches to illustrate my ideas.

    The picture shows the Johnson clock posted a few posts ago. Its pillars would come under the category: domestic; baluster. (remember "domestic" is a term of my own!)
    baluster pillars.jpg

    One thing to note, is the use of incorrect bases for most of the ordered pillars. In reality, the doric caps and bases are not the same, but the case-makers used caps for their bases. In the case of the Corinthian; the bases are almost correct. I say "almost" as you will often see the doric caps used as bases on corinthian style pillars! Not many people would notice the error.
     
  47. makeshift

    makeshift Banned

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    Donal here, sorry for the time delay! As promised here is the appraisal of the clock posted some way back in the thread:

    My main interest subject is "popular culture", such things as "false stone cladding", "mock Tudor" and other things people do to "improve" their station in life! So when my uncle Jarlath (makeshift) showed some of the threads on this board, I was fascinated by the strange adaptations of styles on clock cases: some utter contradictions, not to mention the strange names given. Such titles as "round Gothic" and the names given to some of the ceramic clocks!

    Having read the complete thread, looked at laprade's archives, and taken part in the weekend tutorials in France, I will approach the clock as laprade does, with the difference that I have to then name the origin of the case.

    The general appearance of the clock is "stocky" without being fat: its proportions are well done and aimed to impress. It has the normal broken pediments, which I now know are called "swan necks". There are carved flowers on the ends of the swan necks. (The only pictures available don't show the case complete)
    main case.jpg

    The hood has a box like structure behind the swan necks. This box has a small top mould. The area above the door is inlaid with stringing, and there is an inlaid oval between the swans, which is part of the center pedestal for a finial. The moulds on the pediment is a gentle concave, and above the door, there is a stepped mould that also goes round the side of the hood. In its center is a "key stone" device, above the door. Oh, yeh, the door is a "broken arched" one. The hood pillars are "cluster type" which is a Gothic style, and totally at odds with the "neoclassical pediments". That is typical of "popular culture"!
    hood view.jpg hood rear.jpg

    The main part of the case, the mid section / trunk, is completely Gothic in style. The door has a three Gothic arch top, and the case is cut to suit. There is a small finial above the center point, but it is part of the case. The door has a ogee type mould running around its outside, and above, is an inlaid frieze with strings and two side ovals. This same decoration is also on both returns.
    trunk frieze.jpg
    The trunk pillars are the same as the hood: triple cluster. They have decorated caps and bases, and also center ring moulds, (I don't know what their real name is), much the same as you see on Victorian monuments like the Albert Memorial, and in churches, especially on alter rails and font bases.
    pillar cluster.JPG
    The top mould on the trunk, is a combination of a bottom concave, with stepped beads and convex top. There is no space between the door bottom and the base mould.
    trunk top side.jpg

    The base of the clock has a mitred mould running around its top, the front corners of the base itself are also mitred. The mould is a mix of a large convex with small steps below: a sort of ogee style? The centre panel of the base is inlaid with stringing in a style more in keeping with Hepplewhite! The feet are a simple flat mitred bracket type with a complicated stepped mould on top.
    base.jpg
    The case is mahogany, with a flame veneer in the trunk door. The back board is a two plank oak one. The trunk door has a applied brass key hole cover, and the hood has a small turned knob. There is no sign of a hood locking device: slot in frame and bent staple.
    back board.jpg hood open door.jpg seatboard etc.jpg

    So here it comes; from what I have studied, I say that the case is what laprade refers to as "Liverpool".

    Since I have now taken up a job in London, and uncle Jarlath is gone over to the West to a quiet last few years, this will probably be the last Makeshift post. My uncle's eyesight isn't as good as it was, and computer screens don't help.
     
  48. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    #298 laprade, Apr 13, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2011
    Nice work, Donal, yes it is a Liverpool style case. Also thanks to Bob Ellis who lent the clock for discussion.

    One thing was omitted, and that was a date. Probably just before 1800. Bob does have a dial, but it is not clear who the maker is, but from the artwork, it is just before 1800.
    DSCN4141 - Copie.jpg

    The clock shown below is also a Liverpool style case, but if one didn't see the hood, one would think it was scots! The name on the dial is from Oldham, which is near to Manchester. The case is a fine mahogany one, with plenty of well placed flame veneers. The case has that "solid but not fat" look which is a sign of a Liverpool case.

    GFC_01 - Copie.jpg

    The hood has swan necks with turned wooden rosettes. Above the arched door, is a wide proud crossbanding, which makes the façade of the hood into a sort of "fielded" area. The pillars are baluster, with acanthus leaf motifs at their bases. There is also an inverted acanthus on the center finial pedestal.
    hood.jpg

    The trunk door has a triple gothic arch top and is plain with no beadings. Above the centre point is a Prince of Wales motif, and above the door is a plain frieze, with a stepped cockbead below. The trunk pillars are also baluster, and also have acanthus motifs below each. The trunk top mould is a double reverse with steps. The door length would come under "early short door".
    door top.jpg

    The base is extremely ornate, with a mitred fielded panel, and acanthus motifs in the quarters. It has "bobbin" turnings on either side, and cabinet style turned feet, under a concave moulding. You can also see that the lower part of the trunk, has a fielded panel, with a proud crossbanded surround. The bottom mould is also a double reverse with steps.
    base.jpg

    This case is exceptional as it shows a strong regency styling, with hints of what was to follow: William IV. I am also delighted to be able to show an example of "bobbin turnings". As I said above, the clock shares some design features found on scots clocks of the same era: 1815 to 30 +/-.

    Getting back to Donal's comment about "popular culture", the case shows an absurd mix of gothic and classical: the trunk door top is completely out of place. The first signs of "gothic revival" in 18thc clocks, was in itself a oddity, and to have kept on traces of it into the Regency, where neoclassicism went totally haywire, and mixed up with egyptian, is even odder!
     
  49. wmoorev

    wmoorev Registered User

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    Laprade - Sorry for the long time in posting the hardware pics. Because of file size, I am afraid I will have to do this in two or three posts. Here are the first ones...
    - Willy -
    IMG_6418.jpg

    IMG_6419.jpg
    Notice the hole that has been crudely filled above the lock box.
    IMG_6420.jpg
    Intersting that the mortise is a double depth on the door side, with a flush mounting on the case side.
     
  50. wmoorev

    wmoorev Registered User

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    Laprade - Here are some more:
    IMG_6421.jpg

    IMG_6422.jpg

    IMG_6423.jpg

    IMG_6424.jpg
    This is a photo of the inside of the backboard of the case, in the proximity of the movement. While taking the pictures, I noticed a rather distinguishable "N" in faint pencil, and upon enlarging the photo, I am able to see the form of several words. Is there a trick to seeing this a bit easier? I wonder if a black-light or photo negative image may help me figure out what was written?
    weights.jpg
    I hope these images were what you were hoping to see.
    And thank you much for the information you have provided thus far.
    As a point of note, per your recommendation, I have also taken several shots of the movement, and will post them under a new title. It is late here now, so it might not be until tomorrow or the next day before I get to it.
    Thanks again.
    Best Regards
    - Willy -
     

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