Tall case strike problem.

[Paddypup]

Hello.
Posting some pictures of a tall case clock movement. It runs and thr strike and won’t shut off. Do any of you notice anything wrong.
It’s an old movement, clock was bought at estate sale and only information i have is that it was serviced ten years ago, some bushing work. Seems clean but was dusty so probably could do with a cleaning.
Thank you.

 

[bruce linde]

you're missing the gathering pallet that spins around and moves the rack to the right one notch with each revolution... until the rack hook drops into that last, deepest slot and it stops. check the bottom of the case, on the seatboard (and in the movement), etc.

without it, the rack just sits there and the thing will strike until it lets down completely

 

[Paddypup]

Yes I just noticed that now. It’s similar to a cuckoo rack and snail set up.
Will that part be hard to replace on such an old clock ?

 

[bruce linde]

check timesavers... you might have to do some tailoring (i.e., filing)...

 

[Paddypup]

I will. Thanks for responding. Should have caught that earlier.

 

[Paddypup]

Would that just be a pressure fit? I see no hole for a pin

 

[Willie X]

The GP is fitted on a tapered square with a small pin (or wire) to keep it on. They have a 'beak' to do the gathering and a long 'tailpiece' to do the stopping. Most are not very tight on the shaft. The blanks come in both a right and a left hand versions. It takes a lot of time to turn a blank into the finished product.

Willie X

 

[Paddypup]

The GP is fitted on a tapered square with a small pin (or wire) to keep it on. They have a 'beak' to do the gathering and a long 'tailpiece' to do the stopping. Most are not very tight on the shaft. The blanks come in both a right and a left hand versions. It takes a lot of time to turn a blank into the finished product.

Willie X

Thanks willie. Was reading the multiple posts of this exact topic on the forums here this evening and found some very helpful tips. ( you were in a few ) tapering the square hole will be tricky but I’ll take my time . From the pictures above can you tell if I need a left or a right. When fitted it would turn anticlockwise.
Thank you

 

[Willie X]

That would probably need to be a committee decision ...

I think it might probably be a 'left'. No, no, no wait Non committal (left)? (left) Willie X

 

[Mike Phelan]

you're missing the gathering pallet that spins around and moves the rack to the right one notch with each revolution... until the rack hook drops into that last, deepest slot and it stops. check the bottom of the case, on the seatboard (and in the movement), etc.

without it, the rack just sits there and the thing will strike until it lets down completely

View attachment 669382

you're missing the gathering pallet that spins around and moves the rack to the right one notch with each revolution... until the rack hook drops into that last, deepest slot and it stops. check the bottom of the case, on the seatboard (and in the movement), etc.

without it, the rack just sits there and the thing will strike until it lets down completely

The deep slot is only there for cosmetic reasons - the striking stops as Willie says, when the tail of the GP hits the pin on the and of the rack. The GP runs anticlockwise and there should be a pin on the arbor to hold it in - is the end of the arbor broken off?

 

[Paddypup]

The deep slot is only there for cosmetic reasons - the striking stops as Willie says, when the tail of the GP hits the pin on the and of the rack. The GP runs anticlockwise and there should be a pin on the arbor to hold it in - is the end of the arbor broken off?

I’ll check that later but it doesnt look broken to me. Looks to taper to a fine point

 

[Mike Phelan]

Maybe this one is different and it's just held on with a taper?

 

[bruce linde]

The deep slot is only there for cosmetic reasons - the striking stops as Willie says, when the tail of the GP hits the pin on the and of the rack. The GP runs anticlockwise and there should be a pin on the arbor to hold it in - is the end of the arbor broken off?

i meant to add “and when the gathering pallet can’t rotate any more because it hits the stop pin”.

 

[Paddypup]

Here is the arbour for GP close up. Doesn’t look broken. And is about 15 mm from face.
Also the whole clock.
Looks good but needs lots of veneer restoration on random areas

 

[bruce linde]

that's a dial wanting re-silvering....

 

[Willie X]

Looks like the shaft has flats to me. Also, looks like some kind of tiny cross pin almost against the plate but that could be dirt? The photo is not good enough to make a clear call. Or maybe the photo is not clear enough to make a good call. Willie X

 

[Paddypup]

Looks like the shaft has flats to me. Also, looks like some kind of tiny cross pin almost against the plate but that could be dirt? The photo is not good enough to make a clear call. Or maybe the photo is not clear enough to make a good call. Willie X

just dirt willie. Some bushing work done there and rough sanding.
Flats you mean square edge on GP arbor ?

that's a dial wanting re-silvering....

 

[Willie X]

Yes, the GPs have a tapered square hole, made to fit snugly on a tapered square shaft. Willie X

 

[Mike Phelan]

Still difficult to see it up close. Is the GP the one you made? If so, well done!

As for the dial, they dismantle easily and you can get the stuff to re-silver in UK, and presumably in USA as well. The dial plate will just need a clean with fine wire wool and all the parts lacquering before assembling them.

*dismantle=UK, disassemble=USA.

 

[Paddypup]

Still difficult to see it up close. Is the GP the one you made? If so, well done!

As for the dial, they dismantle easily and you can get the stuff to re-silver in UK, and presumably in USA as well. The dial plate will just need a clean with fine wire wool and all the parts lacquering before assembling them.

*dismantle=UK, disassemble=USA.

thanks willie.

No mike I did not make a GP I’m missing one. Need to file a blank for the arbor..
Lots to do on this clock.
Thanks

 

[Mike Phelan]

Good luck!

 

[ragobo]

(...) check the bottom of the case, on the seatboard (and in the movement), etc.

I suppose it vanished at one time never to be found again. If the clock stood on a fixed place for a long time chances are it could lay on the floor inside the case.

I you have the tools, skills and time I would consider drilling a hole on the squared shaft to place a tapered pin and prevent dropping again in the future.

 

[Willie X]

rago,

I think the hole is there, along with what's left of the old pin. It's just not visable at this point with the unlit photos.

Willie X

 

[ragobo]

rago,

I think the hole is there, along with what's left of the old pin. It's just not visable at this point with the unlit photos.

Willie X

Now you're right Willie! Sorry I didn't notice it on both photos.

 

[Paddypup]

Was taking a look at the warning wheel pin, aside from not have a GP installed-think I also have a further problem here with the pin not being close enough to the metal tab in the photos attached. First picture is the position of the rack in relation to pin position on warning wheel. Ive removed some pins to release the snail incase you guys notice that.

Thanks

 

[Paddypup]

rago,

I think the hole is there, along with what's left of the old pin. It's just not visable at this point with the unlit photos.

Willie X hi willie. Took a better picture of the arbour for the GP. Can’t see any hole.
Thanks

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Pretty sure most of my gathering pallets are tiny, and not held on by any pin. In English clocks it is a bit age dependent. in the 18th century there were tens of thousands of makers, but by the 19th century this was much more centralised.

 

[ragobo]

Was taking a look at the warning wheel pin, aside from not have a GP installed-think I also have a further problem here with the pin not being close enough to the metal tab in the photos attached. First picture is the position of the rack in relation to pin position on warning wheel. Ive removed some pins to release the snail incase you guys notice that.

Thanks

I think the pin on the warning wheel is ok. It should not be in the way of the warning lever when that last is at rest (its lowest position).

 

[Paddypup]

I think the pin on the warning wheel is ok. It should not be in the way of the warning lever when that last is at rest (its lowest position).

Ok thanks.

 

[shutterbug]

You should be able to adjust it with the GP, if you're talking about it's distance from the tab.

 

[Paddypup]

You should be able to adjust it with the GP, if you're talking about it's distance from the tab.

Thanks. I’ll just have to get working on the blank and see how it turns out. Am taking the movement apart to clean old oil and pivots.
Thanks for all the advice. I’ll post pictures of the result. Not anytime soon though

 

[Paddypup]

More help please. Will too much end shake on the minute and hour pipe cause the pin on the rack arm to ride on the snail face ? And how is it corrected.
The rack arm is brass and still seems pretty rigid.
Thanks guys

 

[Mike Phelan]

Will too much end shake on the minute and hour pipe cause the pin on the rack arm to ride on the snail face ? And how is it corrected.

It shouldn't do as the pipes would need to move back for the rack tail to ride on the front of the snail. What does actually happen with both hands in place and when the rack falls?

 

[Paddypup]

It shouldn't do as the pipes would need to move back for the rack tail to ride on the front of the snail. What does actually happen with both hands in place and when the rack falls?

I’ll have to take a closer look when the movement is back together. Seemed like the pin was being pushed up on the face of the snail. Will the hands not being on cause this to happen. Sorry if it’s a stupid question

 

[Mike Phelan]

I’ll have to take a closer look when the movement is back together. Seemed like the pin was being pushed up on the face of the snail. Will the hands not being on cause this to happen. Sorry if it’s a stupid question

No questions are stupid! If no questions are asked, no answers will be given

It's better to do all this when the hands are fitted as otherwise the cannon pinion and hour wheel can move.

 

[Paddypup]

No questions are stupid! If no questions are asked, no answers will be given! It's better to do all this when the hands are fitted as otherwise the cannon pinion and hour wheel can move.

Thanks Mike

 

[shutterbug]

If it helps, the snail moves with the hour hand. You don't need the hands on it to adjust it IF you know what to look for. But some clocks won't turn the hands unless they are under pressure from a hand washer. So in that case, you need at least the minute hand in place for the hands to turn.

 

[Paddypup]

If it helps, the snail moves with the hour hand. You don't need the hands on it to adjust it IF you know what to look for. But some clocks won't turn the hands unless they are under pressure from a hand washer. So in that case, you need at least the minute hand in place for the hands to turn.

I’ll get a picture to make it easier for everyone to understand what I think my problem is. First I’ll put the hands on and see if it Makes a difference.
Thanks

 

[Paddypup]

This is a picture of where the pin rides on the face. My question is, would the Gp stop this from happening or is the brass arm potentially too weak?
Thanks

 

[novicetimekeeper]

That mark is usually done when the rack is not gathered up and the clock continues to run. Your missing gathering pallet is the cause here but the most common is the strike side weight hitting the floor while the time side still has room to descend. (one trick is to wind the weights up so that the time side is always a bit lower)

The reason the rack tail is springy is to allow the tail to ride up like this so that the clock is not stopped by preventing the snail turning. The pin on the tail is usually chamfered to allow it to run up the slope on the leading edge of the snail. Your tail looks like somebody has bent it at some point.

Some early rack strikes had a solid tail with a sprung tab, I have one of these, but it is also internal rack which was not a system that lasted long as mounting the rack on the front ( or back) makes it easier to maintain the clock.

 

[Mike Phelan]

This is a picture of where the pin rides on the face. My question is, would the Gp stop this from happening or is the brass arm potentially too weak?
Thanks

View attachment 670291

There's no reason why the rack tail should be too weak; however, the marks on the snail mean that someone has bent the rack tail too close to the snail. The best thing would be to get the GP present and working OK and take it from there.

 

[ragobo]

This is a video of what novicetimekeeper explained

 

[Paddypup]

Thank you all for the replies.

 

[Mike Phelan]

That's interesting regarding the YouTube video as it also has a separate brass warning lever - I wonder if that one's original? PP's one is definitely wrong and might well be home-made.

 

[Paddypup]

That's interesting regarding the YouTube video as it also has a separate brass warning lever - I wonder if that one's original? PP's one is definitely wrong and might well be home-made.

mine is wrong? Will it be a problem?

 

[Mike Phelan]

Might need the bottom end re-shaping with a file if it's home made. If it isn't bent see if it lifts too far whilst turning the minute hand towards the hour to see if it can do that freely without anything jamming. Again, you really need the GP present before trying anything!

 

[ragobo]

That's interesting regarding the YouTube video as it also has a separate brass warning lever - I wonder if that one's original? PP's one is definitely wrong and might well be home-made.

MIke I think you're mixing threads here. There's nothing wrong with PP's warning lever (yet).

The only thing this movement needs now is a GP so that he can check everything runs as expected.

 

[Paddypup]

Yes it seems I just need to get the GP on . If it makes any difference the clock ran a full night minus the weight for the strike side.
Thanks everyone!

 

[Mike Phelan]

MIke I think you're mixing threads here. There's nothing wrong with PP's warning lever (yet).

The only thing this movement needs now is a GP so that he can check everything runs as expected.

That's certainly possible! My take on this was just that PP needs to have a working gathering pallet before doing anything to the warning lever, whether it be long or short, bent or not, good or evil!
I'll crawl back into my shell ....

 

[shutterbug]

It appears that the rack is in a perpetual lowered position and is forced to move out of the way when it hits the 1:00 step, making a mark all the way around the snail. I agree that the GP needs to be present and working to correct it. Personally I would stop the clock for now so the rack tail doesn't get broken or bent.