Table Top, Wind-up Clock - Needs Help !

[Lji1221]

New to the forum. Had great feedback on my 400 day, and thought I'd give this one a try as well. The movement says only "Sessions
and Company". I really don't see any numbers.

Movement was mounted inside small cabinet. Springs were pushed up against the sides. Once I removed the movement from the box, the springs expanded considerably. Web photos I've found appear consistent. Gears seemed to move, and the clapper seemed to want to chime - all the time. The wire piece in image 8011 needed to be moved out of way before things started moving.

What I can't determine, and where I need help, is how to loose pieces fit together, as well as what might be missing. There appears
to be a considerable amount of 'kludging' as well. Wires wrapped around and a few pieces not attached to anything.

 

[Willie X]

Your movement will need to be taken apart and many points repaired, bushing work, new clicks, etc.

That case appears to a store clock box, a kitchen clock base and Lord knows where that top piece came from

Good luck, others will know more.

Willie X

 

[Lji1221]

I know it's not pretty, but can't beat the price - free! Have no issues taking it apart, but I'm still not sure what's missing.

The 2 loose pieces need to go somewhere, and the pendulum needs a place to hang from. Tried finding diagrams, and/or pics of something similar so that I could figure out how to rebuild it best I could.

 

[Willie X]

The two loose pieces, shown next to the pendulum stick, are the crutch/pallet assembly and the suspension rod/spring. The pendulum hangs on that little eye, at the bottom of the suspension rod. The suspension spring appears to be broken.

Willie X

 

[shutterbug]

There are several helpful articles here that will help you get started. Especially look at the one on count wheel clocks.

 

[Lji1221]

Well. I've been doing a lot of reading, and I 'think' I'm getting closer, but still have a couple of things that I can use some help with. Article on 'How a Pendulum Clock Works' shows a pic that looks very similar to one I'm trying to fix. I've attached it here for reference. I've also attached a pic of suspension rod, and broken spring.

Where I can use some help is finding a replacement spring. Most all I've seen online look nothing like mine. It's thin piece of
metal that has a small hole at the bottom. The top, I believe is simply press fit into shaft with slit in it. No hole for pin to retain the spring. Do I 'pinch' the slit to retain the spring?

 

[EscapeWheel]

You can buy suspension rods at most any supply house - sometimes they come in a pack of 10 or 12. The spring is attached to the rod and has either a little dimple or a piece of wire on the spring - you slide the spring in the slot and the dimple holds it in place.
They come in different lengths - you cut it to size and make a hook with small pliers (to hang the bob).

 

[Mike Mall]

Most of the time they are set up like this. The wire prevents the end from slipping through the slit.
I have also encountered one, where the spring was simply bent over 90 degrees at the top. I reinstalled it as I found it, and it held fine.

 

[shutterbug]

Also some have a dimple at the top instead of a hole. It keeps the spring from slipping down through the slot.

 

[tracerjack]

While you will get excellent help here, you will be able to take advantage of that help far better if you set this movement aside and buy a good book on clock repair, such as Steven Conover’s “Striking Clock Repair Guide”. It is not cheap, but well worth the price. I also liked Balcomb’s “The Clock Repair Primer”.

 

[Lji1221]

Thanks. I've got message into clockworks for correct spring. They sell a set that look like one above, with loop, but the shaft is longer, needs to be cut, and it has no loop for pendulum. I'm sure the length needs to be close, and not sure how pretty the loop needs to be. It just seems odd I can't find a direct replacement. I'm sorry if I'm showing my newbie.

 

[tracerjack]

We were all newbies at one time. I’m a “read the directions first” person, which is why I suggest some books. If you prefer hands on, just be careful with those mainsprings.

 

[Willie X]

This clock needs a lot of work and it's really not a good behinners project. It's best to do some serious studying and start gathering some proper tools... what tracer is suggesting.

Your clock will need to be checked for wear, disassessed, clicks repaired etc., just for starters.

Willie X

 

[tracerjack]

Thanks. I've got message into clockworks for correct spring. They sell a set that look like one above, with loop, but the shaft is longer, needs to be cut, and it has no loop for pendulum. I'm sure the length needs to be close, and not sure how pretty the loop needs to be. It just seems odd I can't find a direct replacement. I'm sorry if I'm showing my newbie.

Yes, they pretty much look alike, but they come in different spring thickness. Be sure to measure the one you have. When you get one of the same spring thickness, then the length will need to be close. How pretty the loop is will be up to you. If you delve any further into clock repair, you will soon be thankful there are replacements of any kind.

 

[JeffG]

That suspension rod looks to me like its still usable if you slide the spring back into place and crimp the tab at the end of the rod back down tight. The spring part seems short, but that will just make the clock run fast until you can get a proper replacement. There's plenty more work to do before the suspension rod comes into play.
It's my understanding that Sessions clocks have notoriously poor mainspring rachet clicks. You'll want to replace those as a matter of safety.

 

[Richard Hadden]

I think I have the same clock but mine has no manufacturers name stamped on it and no name on the case. The only thing I have is a trademark symbol on the dial. Posting some pictures though and hope they help. I just started on this clock the other day. It is a mess, and I don't have the pendulum, just a homemade one I used to see if it runs, which it does surprisingly well! I circled the areas asked about showing the pallets on the movement and the suspension spring location plus the spring wires for lifting and striking levers. You'll notice that the escape wheel on the one I have is in pretty good shape, IMO, and I assume it was replaced at some time as the faces of the pallets show considerable wear. It looks like the spring wire at the bottom of your clock was pulled down and tied off, but it should be wrapped around the striking lever arbor.
I would suggest, as others have already, getting Steven G. Conover's Striking Clock Repair Guide. It should help you a lot.

 

[Mike Mall]

I think I have the same clock but mine has no manufacturers name stamped on it and no name on the case. The only thing I have is a trademark symbol on the dial. Posting some pictures though and hope they help. I just started on this clock the other day. It is a mess, and I don't have the pendulum, just a homemade one I used to see if it runs, which it does surprisingly well! I circled the areas asked about showing the pallets on the movement and the suspension spring location plus the spring wires for lifting and striking levers. You'll notice that the escape wheel on the one I have is in pretty good shape, IMO, and I assume it was replaced at some time as the faces of the pallets show considerable wear. It looks like the spring wire at the bottom of your clock was pulled down and tied off, but it should be wrapped around the striking lever arbor.
I would suggest, as others have already, getting Steven G. Conover's Striking Clock Repair Guide. It should help you a lot.

I think maybe yours is a Hayashi, an old Japanese clock.
Take a look at the movement in this thread.
Hayashi

 

[Willie X]

Richard,

Yep ... Japanese. Some are almost identical copies of early American clocks.
Some say the Japanese actually bought the right to manufactur the famous Ansonia Pacemaker design.

Yours looks more like a turn of the century New Haven? Who knows, more likely a generic copy of a lot of designs.

Willie X

 

[Richard Hadden]

Thanks Mike & Willie. That is the movement I have, and I guess that explains no markings on it. I hope the pictures helped Lji1221 and good luck with your work on it.

Rich

 

[tracerjack]

The logo on the dial is the Japanese clock company Hibino according to this site Japanese Clock LogosThe case is also consistent with Japanese clocks. I've found the movements to be good runners. The logo for Hayashi is similar, but doesn’t have the words “trade mark” or the square around the “H”.

 

[Mike Mall]

The logo on the dial is the Japanese clock company Hibino according to this site Japanese Clock LogosThe case is also consistent with Japanese clocks. I've found the movements to be good runners. The logo for Hayashi is similar, but doesn’t have the words “trade mark” or the square around the “H”.

You got it. Thanks for the link - great info.

 

[Mike Mall]

Richard,

Yep ... Japanese. Some are almost identical copies of early American clocks.
Some say the Japanese actually bought the right to manufactur the famous Ansonia Pacemaker design.

Yours looks more like a turn of the century New Haven? Who knows, more likely a generic copy of a lot of designs.

Willie X

I read somewhere that they copied an EN Welch movement as well.

 

[Richard Hadden]

I checked the Japanese Clock Logos website. Great site. Looking closer you can see that the logo I have is slightly different than the one for Hibino. On the one I have the corners on the outside diamond shape are rounded and the H inside the square is a different font. The sit e lists this logo as unknown. Maybe a copy of a copy?

 

[tracerjack]

..... Looking closer you can see that the logo I have is slightly different than the one for Hibino. On the one I have the corners on the outside diamond shape are rounded and the H inside the square is a different font. The sit e lists this logo as unknown. Maybe a copy of a copy?

Yes, yours does have the rounded corners. I saw that second logo, but thought it was simply a variation, since the differences were so minor, almost like a change in font. Although, now that I think on it, it's possible a second company might have been trying to boost sales off of Hibino's reputation. Just enough differences between the logos to say they weren't identical.

 

[Mike Mall]

I checked the Japanese Clock Logos website. Great site. Looking closer you can see that the logo I have is slightly different than the one for Hibino. On the one I have the corners on the outside diamond shape are rounded and the H inside the square is a different font. The sit e lists this logo as unknown. Maybe a copy of a copy?

I have an Hayashi clock with both the case and movement marked as such. When I discovered the paper dial was not original, ( and was in poor condition,) I removed it and found the original under it. I could not find the original dial logo until tracerjack pointed to this source. It's also marked "unknown" in the list. They must have been wild, and free with the logos back then.

 

[Lji1221]

Sorry for the late response, I've been out of commission for a while.

Wanted to reiterate that my mech is stamped as a Sessions Clock Co. USA, however the photos in Richards post appear
to be identical, for the most part, to my mechanism. The spring pic, #132714, is really one of my main missing pieces. It doesn't appear to have a HOOK at the top, which seems to indicate it is simply crimped into it's mount.

The other aspect of the spring in photo is the length of the rod compared to mine. There is no scale in his photos, yet mine measures at 63mm without the piece of broken spring. I'm still at a loss as to how long I need for the entire spring/rod assembly.

One last, newbie question - Where in the photos is the 'striking lever arbor' that the tied off spring shown in the lower left of my mech is supposed to be wrapped?

 

[EscapeWheel]

I found a suspension rod with spring in my drawer that's about 63mm (not including spring) - private message me with your address and I'll send it to you.

 

[Richard Hadden]

The overall length of the pendulum leader with the suspension spring attached is 6 inches (152.4 mm), with the suspension spring itself being 1 1/2 inches (38.1mm) on the movement I have. The proper term from the book, for what I called the striking lever arbor, is the hammer arm/lever arbor. The hammer arm arbor is at the bottom of the movement. Coming straight down is the hammer arm with the hammer at the end. This is attached to the hammer arbor. The spring wire is wrapped around the hammer lever that comes off the arbor and goes up inside the movement. That holds the end while wire is wound around the arbor and connected to the movement to hold it, in this case by hooking on to the plate. I've attached pictures and I hope they help as I'm not a pro and don't always call parts by their proper name.

Rich

 

[Lji1221]

Thanks so much for the detailed information. I have a spring attached to the hammer arbor that runs up into the mechanism. The 'rogue' spring on the bottom right is also attached to the hammer arbor. It connects to the little hook like piece on the top right of the arbor (post). I've attached a pic that I hope shows is better.

Also, what is the best way to clean the entire mechanism? Can I soak in some solution, and rinse it off?

 

[EscapeWheel]

This is an Ingraham movement. The arbor is the red arrow, the return spring is green, the stop is purple and the hammer is blue. The spring you're talking about was added by somebody - not sure why. I'd take it off.

 

[Richard Hadden]

I think escapewheel is right. It looks like that rouge spring was added by someone to do the job that the return spring is supposed to do. Maybe the end of the return spring broke off and the spring is not working? You would need to take it apart or try to get a better close up look to tell. As far as cleaning you need to take the movement apart to clean it properly and inspect for worn pivot holes and pivots. Worn pivot holes need to be re-bushed and pivots need to be polished. If you haven't already done so, go to YouTube and look up clock repair videos. I can't recommend any in particular but there are many and most are quite instructive. Also, read this forum. It is a great source of experienced information. I am not a pro and do this for my own enjoyment, but this is the way I learned what I know and when in trouble the forum is like having a group of mentors to guide you. Mainsprings need to be let down before you take them out and you need to use a mainspring winder to properly do the work that is needed on them. Many videos on that as well. Take time to study and don't do anything you aren't sure of with mainsprings as an uncontrolled release of their power can be very dangerous. This is general simplistic advice of a non pro but as a it is a hobby for me, I take the time to look things up and study as much experienced information from the pros as I can. You will need to invest in some tools and books.
I hope this helps.

Rich

 

[Lji1221]

Rich - Pro or not, your inputs have been most valuable. I'll continue to research the topics and hopefully get a better understanding of the inner workings. As with most repair works, I'll take things slowly so as to not upset too many variables.

Thanks again for you help.

 

[Lji1221]

I've made some progress since my last post, and was hoping to get some additional insight. I've obtained a spring, and new pendulum rod, and have put things back together as best I could. Took a bit to 'tweaking' to get the pendulum rod right, but I'm thinking it's close since it swings!

Been tweaking the wire crutch some since it appears the escape wheel isn't rotating. Pallet's move back/forth, and 'nick' the teeth, but aren't actually making any progress. Before I get too carried away with the bending, I thought I'd reach out to a more experienced audience for some guidance.

Hopefully the attached, 10sec, video helps show what's going on.

Lou

 

[tracerjack]

Your video shows that no power is getting to the escape wheel, which would be logical since the mainspring is unwound. With that iffy click wire soldered in place, I don't think I would try winding it until that was fixed. On a plus note, the suspension spring and crutch wire look like they will work once you get the movement cleaned and the repairs done.

 

[Lji1221]

I believe I've restored power to the escape wheel. There was an unsecured spring at the top of the mech. ( it looked liked it wrapped on a bar that held front and back plates together). Once I connected it the escape wheel spun, when pallets weren't there, as per video. In the second video I'm attempting to show the play in the escape wheel, front to back. Does this seem normal? The little stiff wire dingy that is supposed to hold the pallets is less than precise. Slightest movement of the mech and that wire drops away.

Is the play in the escape wheel causing the pallets to slip, or is there more to the story?

 

[tracerjack]

There is not enough play for the EW teeth to miss the pallets on the verge. That front to back play (end shake) is necessary for the wheels to work properly. The wire that holds the verge in place can be tightened. We are glad to help, but you would find all this information in a single book on the subject. I again encourage you to choose one and learn all you can. I think you would get your answers in a book much faster. There is quite a time delay when asking on the forum, especially if the right person doesn’t see your post. You will also get far greater benefit from the help you receive here, once you understand how the entire mechanism works.

 

[stushug]

In your video #9292 you show the verge on the movement but you don't have the holder over it. The 90 deg arm to the right of the verge with the flattened end is what keeps the verge on its pin. It should rotate easily, and you may have to bend it slightly so it stays in place.
I would disassemble the movement, taking a LOT of pictures as you remove each piece. That makes it much easier to reassemble later. You won't have to guess which wheel goes in which hole or which way they faced front to back. I like to clean everything then re-install one train at a time to assess which holes need bushed. It's much easier to see pivots moving around in the holes when you don't have 50 years of dirt and oil obscuring your view. Make sure you let down the springs before you attempt disassembly. I re-install the spring arbors without the springs when I'm checking for worn holes. You're mostly checking by rocking wheels back and forth slightly to see how the wheel next to it moves. That should give you a good start. As mentioned earlier by others that know much more than me, I would not wind the springs until the clicks are repaired.

 

[Mike Mall]

There is a set of videos by the NAWCC online to guide you. Here is the one on escapements.

The Escapement