Swiss Gander Watch Need Information

[Belga]

Hello Community need your help to see if I can have some more information about this watch because I m a Newbie on this subject.
Short Story: I inherited a watch (the one on the Pics) and I would love to have a little more information about it. I inherited this watch from my mother she was (as me) from the Gander family and she told me that this watch was hand made by an ancestor for him . So I have done my research and by the engraved monogram (that I believe it s a M) and the picture inside that I thing was it´s wife, I believe it was made by Marc Gander (the M) the Son of Emile Gander. But there an engraved name (R.WALDVOGII? 12136) that confuses me and I don t know the meaning (see pic 3)... can someone help? And if you can give me also some info about the mechanism or other information I would be grateful. The side bottom that you can see activate a Bell that I don t understand why also

Many Thkx for all your help
Paulo

 

[MrRoundel]

Wow, beautiful watch! You're very fortunate to have inherited such a work of art. What a movement! What a case! Congratulations.

It is a very valuable watch, to start with, as it is a very high grade repeater. I don't know much about repeaters, as they are out of my league financially, but they are amazing machines.

Yours looks like it was made by one of the better makers of such movements. Like an Audemars, Le Coultre, or Capt., or a few others. Experts on Swiss repeaters will be along to comment, and perhaps salivate over the quality and condition of this heirloom.

Enjoy your gem of a watch. But do it bearing in mind that without a recent service, very expensive damage can be done by running it too much. Run it sparingly if it hasn't been cleaned and oiled over the past 10 years.

 

[Belga]

Wow, beautiful watch! You're very fortunate to have inherited such a work of art. What a movement! What a case! Congratulations.

It is a very valuable watch, to start with, as it is a very high grade repeater. I don't know much about repeaters, as they are out of my league financially, but they are amazing machines.

Yours looks like it was made by one of the better makers of such movements. Like an Audemars, Le Coultre, or Capt., or a few others. Experts on Swiss repeaters will be along to comment, and perhaps salivate over the quality and condition of this heirloom.

Enjoy your gem of a watch. But do it bearing in mind that without a recent service, very expensive damage can be done by running it too much. Run it sparingly if it hasn't been cleaned and oiled over the past 10 years.

Many Thanks for you r Kind Words
A service was made at Patek Philippe in Genebra few years ago (3-4) from my mom words. As I told i trully believe it was made by one of my ancestor Marc or Emile Gander since i m Gander also.... but theres no brand sinal or something like that. For me it s a shame to have a piece o Swiss Wtch history at home i will donate (probably) to a museum (Patek maybe) so everyone can enjoy such a piece. I m only looking to have a little more concrete info about it since a really don t understand a thing. Again Many thanks for you r words a truly believe it s a piece of art but maybe only for my eyes (not anymore). Thank you once more.....

 

[MrRoundel]

Sorry, I forgot to address the aspect of a Mr. Gander making this watch. IMO, while not impossible, it is more likely that it was made for him by one of the better makers. I just can't see that a maker of a watch like this would be so hard to find information on. Perhaps a special order for him that eventually made its way to beliefs that he himself has made it? Such things happen over the "telephone" (As in the game where statements change a bit as they get whispered around a circle of different people.) of time.

Again, I am no expert on repeaters. I do wonder why Patek Philippe would have done the service if it wasn't one of theirs? It seems these makers don't generally work on other makers' watches. I could be wrong here as well. If made by Patek, and if they stated a desire to have it in their museum, I should think that this would go a long way in a potential ID as a PP. Dr. Jon , or perhaps Audemars , eri231 , or Ethan Lipsig ,might be some help here. Cheers.

 

[eri231]

Emile Gander was a merchant, not a watchmaker. His heirs are still active in Italy.

https://www.regionelombardia.info/schedaazienda.asp?codice=51475&pagina=1&azienda=GANDER-DI-PAOLO-GANDER&dove=como&provincia=&ricerca=&ID=0

Regards enrico

 

[Belga]

Sorry, I forgot to address the aspect of a Mr. Gander making this watch. IMO, while not impossible, it is more likely that it was made for him by one of the better makers. I just can't see that a maker of a watch like this would be so hard to find information on. Perhaps a special order for him that eventually made its way to beliefs that he himself has made it? Such things happen over the "telephone" (As in the game where statements change a bit as they get whispered around a circle of different people.) of time.

Again, I am no expert on repeaters. I do wonder why Patek Philippe would have done the service if it wasn't one of theirs? It seems these makers don't generally work on other makers' watches. I could be wrong here as well. If made by Patek, and if they stated a desire to have it in their museum, I should think that this would go a long way in a potential ID as a PP. Dr. Jon , or perhaps Audemars , eri231 , or Ethan Lipsig ,might be some help here. Cheers.

Again Many Thanks for you r help. It make sense I agree with you since I never seen a Gander Pocket Watch (references or images in the web) I had long time ago a Gander Wristwatch but not with this sort of quality or detail at all.

Just trying to had some information about it and about the name graved into it? or the number?....

Thank you Again

 

[Belga]

Emile Gander was a merchant, not a watchmaker. His heirs are still active in Italy.

https://www.regionelombardia.info/schedaazienda.asp?codice=51475&pagina=1&azienda=GANDER-DI-PAOLO-GANDER&dove=como&provincia=&ricerca=&ID=0

Regards enrico

Thank you eri231 what i found on the the family three is he was a (horloger) but maybe you r rigth. About their activity yes they still active in Italy we had (not me but some family members at time) some issue because of the legal Brand Gander..... but I believe it s solved.

Still looking for this watchmaker... help

 

[eri231]

Maybe Waldvogel? Bernhard Robert Waldvogel Schaffouse 1841 LeLocle 1917 active from 1869 to 1889. Casemaker
Regards enrico

 

[Belga]

Maybe Waldvogel? Bernhard Robert Waldvogel Schaffouse 1841 LeLocle 1917 active from 1869 to 1889. Casemaker
Regards enrico

He was a Watchmaker?.... Yes I think this is name engraved on the case R. WALDVOGEL but not sure since the two last letters looks the same (L)..

 

[eri231]

He was a casemaker
Regards enrico

 

[MrRoundel]

Enrico beat me to it, and with better information than I might have provided. I was just searching under Waldvogel, after not having found anything under the described spelling. I was getting closer, but I don't think I would have found definitively that he was a casemaker. It does make a lot of sense because that's usually who marks the case in such a manner.

Any thoughts on the movement maker, eri231 ? I didn't see that anyone knowledgeable has put forth any ideas. Cheers.

 

[Belga]

Great Community here you r helping me a lot.......

 

[eri231]

It seems to me that the caliber 46 is the right one Mikrolisk - The horological trade mark index

The caliber 30 is a quarter repetition while the caliber 46 is a minute repetition like the one in the picture
Regards enrico

 

[Belga]

Guys I found this picture and I thing it s a Jaeger-LeCoutre it s quiet the same no?
Here was

 

[eri231]

It's a minute repeat, but it's not the same design, LeCoultre not Jager LeCoultre
Regards enrico

 

[Belga]

It's a minute repeat, but it's not the same design, LeCoultre not Jager LeCoultre
Regards enrico

Sorry Newbie Things....Thkx

 

[Belga]

understood

 

[Incroyable]

It seems strange that Patek would service a non-Patek watch.

These brands are usually extremely strict about what they service. They usually even refuse to service things that have had aftermarket parts installed.

 

[MrRoundel]

Guys I found this picture and I thing it s a Jaeger-LeCoutre it s quiet the same no?
Here was

That might be a pretty good match. I thought that yours displayed a different design characteristic than I recall seeing on such repeaters. It seem to me that the striking hammers usually are designed to be thicker side to thicker side, like two hammers head to head. Yours, and the one here, are facing the same direction, i.e., hammer-head to hammer-handle. I don't know if that makes sense, but I tried. Cheers.

 

[gmorse]

Hi MrR,

Yours, and the one here, are facing the same direction, i.e., hammer-head to hammer-handle.

This layout is sometimes found on earlier types.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Belga]

It seems strange that Patek would service a non-Patek watch.

These brands are usually extremely strict about what they service. They usually even refuse to service things that have had aftermarket parts installed.

Maybe the information is not the correct one really I don t know it was my mom (that don t understand a lot about this) who told me ... but maybe she was not on the official Patek services ... don t know for sure so maybe it s best not to take this info into account. But the truth is that the watch was delivered to me in a Patek box (picture below).
I need to do a insurance do you have a clue of the value of a watch like this one?

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Enrico is correct. B. Robert Waldvogel, from his Locle days. It was made before 1881 by the case marks. Look closely, and you will see the Neuchatel assay punch. He was also handling some finished watches, even if always listed in address books as a case maker. There are watches recorded for him from early 1880s (not this one). So you have your case maker.

On to the movement maker/finisher. Others have established it is a Lecoultre ebauche—agreed. The escapement is unique, esp looking at pallet cock. Presumably, 12136 is also the movement serial number. Number 12136–a minute repeater, with anchor escapement & cylindrique hairspring with 2 Phillips curves—achieved a Class C rating (1 month in 2 positions, plus in heat & cold) in 1880 at Neuchatel. It was made for/retailed by the firm of Walther Marchand of Chaux-de-Fonds. Made by Edouard Lienhard of Locle, adjusted by the famous Otto Kaurup of Locle.

The Locle maker & adjuster IMO fit with a Locle case maker, the repeater type matches, and the assay mark fits 1880. I think this could be your watch. I don’t know Lienhard repeater construction, to say if he used identifying features. Others more knowledgeable could tell if the balance construction is a match to my description, given a clear pic.

 

[Belga]

Enrico is correct. B. Robert Waldvogel, from his Locle days. It was made before 1881 by the case marks. Look closely, and you will see the Neuchatel assay punch. He was also handling some finished watches, even if always listed in address books as a case maker. There are watches recorded for him from early 1880s (not this one). So you have your case maker.

On to the movement maker/finisher. Others have established it is a Lecoultre ebauche—agreed. The escapement is unique, esp looking at pallet cock. Presumably, 12136 is also the movement serial number. Number 12136–a minute repeater, with anchor escapement & cylindrique hairspring with 2 Phillips curves—achieved a Class C rating (1 month in 2 positions, plus in heat & cold) in 1880 at Neuchatel. It was made for/retailed by the firm of Walther Marchand of Chaux-de-Fonds. Made by Edouard Lienhard of Locle, adjusted by the famous Otto Kaurup of Locle.

The Locle maker & adjuster IMO fit with a Locle case maker, the repeater type matches, and the assay mark fits 1880. I think this could be your watch. I don’t know Lienhard repeater construction, to say if he used identifying features. Others more knowledgeable could tell if the balance construction is a match to my description, given a clear pic.

Wowww Amazed... What a level of knowledge Great Information .... mosesgodfrey thank you very much for you r information and level of detail..

 

[Dr. Jon]

That serial number and period are also consistent with Louis Audemars. I agree this watch is very likely the one that went to the observatory in 1880. Helical balance springs on repeaters are not common. The balance looks like one of theirs although it may also have come from the same specialty maker Audemars used.

It would have to had a lot of the work done in the Neuchatel region to get to the tests but I suspect it stopped in La Brassus along the way.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Dr. Jon good thinking! I wonder if Audemars has any info.

Belga Happy to help—amazing piece! Hope others can solidify my speculation.

 

[MrRoundel]

As far as an insurance value for the watch, I'd start with $12,000, with perhaps as much as $15,000. It looks like a very heavy, and super minty case, with Jurgenson lips and chain-guard bow. The condition looks superb, and therefore it would be hard to replace. I'll send the OP a link in a PM to an internet seller of note, where there is one decent comparable. But to which I would add a couple of $thousand or so, minimum.

Again, bear in mind that I am no expert on such items. That said, without searching I would have said that you're certainly somewhere into the 5 figure range. Others more expert in such watches may have better ideas. I am open to correction here. Good luck.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Just a thought, would this be served well to move to complicated watches? Mr. Poniz perhaps could tell us if this fits with Lienhard.

 

[Belga]

Just a thought, would this be served well to move to complicated watches? Mr. Poniz perhaps could tell us if this fits with Lienhard.

Maybe since there are some questions unsolved

 

[Belga]

Hello Everyone I just made a video so we can see and listen to the chimes of the watch