Swiss cylinder escapement case

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by Clockmaker1900, Aug 5, 2019.

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  1. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Dear members can anybody help me with this case as you can see in the photos thers a screw on both sides on the out side it doz move but not a lot are they a half turn to get the movement out of case
    Or do you have to remove the screw all the way tried both they don't wont to come out and just turn a bit front one has turned a few times
    Thank you
    Edwin

    B3ECDF5C-06A9-44E5-BF18-B179CB3858F2.jpeg B5EAA417-916B-4FCD-9FC8-CFB4CC41B1F6.jpeg
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin, and welcome to the forum,

    The screw you need to turn, so that the flat side is next to the case, is the one in the red circle:

    B3ECDF5C-06A9-44E5-BF18-B179CB3858F2_edit.jpg

    That screw is a dog screw and there's just a peg across on the opposite side. The screws in the case band on the top plate side are holding the case springs in place, so you don't need to touch those to remove the movement.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  3. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin,

    I also notice that the regulator is missing from the balance cock and the balance spring doesn't look too healthy either.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  4. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    We don't see the dial so possibly this is one of those movements without a seconds hand. If it has a seconds hand it appears the pivot for the seconds hand i broken....
     
  5. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hello Graham Thank you as you can tell new to this The watch in question is only for parts but as i have a lovely one with a cog with teeth missing that i would like to get going so this one is to experiment on then hopefully if i can clean this and put it back to gather will try other
    there is no second hand on ether watch
    Graham just turned the Screw this is why forums are so good turned and watch pop out
    thank you again
    Edwin
     
  6. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hello Graham
    This is the one i would like to get going Kundert i think late 1890s nice 935 silver case but as u can see cog broken
    If i get it going will be giving it to my Girlfriend
    Thank you again for your help

    A7737532-AE64-4D42-B98A-1C45EAFDAEBD.jpeg 8B8E4C1C-A6D4-428F-878A-4E509A173B0C.jpeg
     
  7. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hello and Thank you
    There is no second hand
     
  8. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin,

    Glad this worked. You have a lot of teeth missing from the mainspring barrel and also at least one on the centre wheel, and there's no guarantee that either part from the donor watch will fit, because wheel diameters, tooth counts and arbor sizes all have to match. These watches weren't made to have interchangeable parts and although they may look very similar you can't assume that they will match exactly.

    You'll have to remove the barrel and the centre wheel from their bridges. The way the mainspring barrel is mounted is known as a 'hanging barrel', because its arbor is only supported at one end, in the bridge you can see on the top of the watch. It has to be dismantled in a certain way which isn't immediately obvious, and this old thread explains and illustrates this.

    The centre wheel has a hollow arbor and that square in the centre, which is where the key fits to set the hands, is connected to a thin pin which runs right through the arbor and has the cannon pinion, (the part which caries the minute hand and shown on the right of the second picture below), fitted to it with a firm press fit. When you set the hands to time, the hands have to be able to move without moving the rest of the wheels in the train, so there has to be a slipping clutch mechanism. This is done by that central pin slipping inside the hollow centre arbor, just enough to allow them to move, but stiff enough to drive the hands in normal use. To remove the centre wheel from its bridge you'll have to take out that pin, which is best done with a fine punch from the cannon pinion end, (a staking tool would be ideal, but in its absence, a thin steel rod may do the job). It may be quite stiff, probably not having been removed for many years, and as you can see from the state of the one in the second picture, possibly rusty as well.

    IMG_0912.JPG IMG_0910.JPG

    You'll probably run up against some other issues as you dismantle the movements, so please do come and ask if there's anything you aren't sure about. The most fragile and delicate parts are the balance and balance spring, which need extra care in handling.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  9. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    I agree fully with Graham's comments above.

    As for the balance, the cylinder has a tendency to catch the "teeth" in the escape wheel. It is a bit easier if you make sure the mainspring is all lose and puts no force what so ever, on the gear train. Just lifting the balance is often not enough. I have, with very few exceptions, had to help the cylinder clear the escape wheel by turning the balance when lifting it upwards.....
     
  10. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hello again and thank you both i do hop the wheel fits but as you say may not
    And i am stuck cant get second cannon pinion of to get to the wheel
    And cant see how to get barrel out of the main spring drum
    Im on holiday and insted of getting out im trying to solve this problems

    AE8BA47A-A03C-4BBA-A4D1-174652EA2467.jpeg
     
  11. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Main spring arbour

    9BE41852-BE67-4663-9E6E-19C892EF712D.jpeg D4AA026E-674D-4C9E-A03D-B99C82D6254C.jpeg 479F4358-7638-46C7-BE5A-E3EFE48F9427.jpeg
     
  12. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin,

    As I mentioned in my post #8, you will come across these small barriers to progress!

    The first thing to do with the barrel is to carefully prise off the lid by levering up with a small screwdriver in the square cut-out, then take out the mainspring by unhooking it in the centre, (may need some stout tweezers to do this), and unwinding it until you can unhook it from the barrel wall at its outer end. This will allow access to the snail, the part where the centre of the spring hooks on, and you'll need some way of holding it firmly to unscrew it whilst you also hold the winding square on the other end of the arbor, most easily in a pin-vice.

    I don't know what tools you have available, and if you don't have the appropriate tools it's easy to damage more parts. Watch-makers' screwdrivers and some decent tweezers are a minimum requirement. Be careful if you're using any pliers with serrated jaws as these can damage parts, ones with plain jaws are better.

    On the centre wheel, it will need some sort of punch to remove the cannon pinion from the pin, (there are some specialised tools which can be used here, but let's keep it simple for now). A general note of caution; many of the steel parts on these Swiss movements are quite hard, which is good for wear resistance but bad for resilience and they can be brittle, so go carefully.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  13. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    I see what you mean Graham with the main spring arbour in you thread thank you
    The main spring barrel dosnt wont to open but now i no it has to will give bit more push so to get arbour out
     
  14. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin,

    Looking at the picture in your post #10, I see that you have the cannon pinion off already, (the pinion you see there is the centre and riveted to the wheel, so that mustn't come off). Now all you need to do is tap the pin through whilst supporting the bridge so that the other end of the pin with the square is free to move.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  15. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Thank you Graham the centre wheel pinion is going to be a problem yes have very small screwdrivers and twizers but not a vice as the one you seed
    Thank you again for your time and help
    I did look online to find parts but nothing so i decided to get the other movement of ebay for a few pounds hopping the parts will fit they do look very close if not then will be a shame as the watch is very nice would be a shame not to get it going
     
  16. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hello Graham I could always try cleaning it as it without pushing it through and use it all as it is on other watch is they the same
    Yes cheating but if it works les damage
     
  17. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    You have to be extremley lucky for the bridge to fit on the other movement....
    It should not be that difficult to punch out the pinion as Graham described above.....

    Support it over a hole big enough for the square head and give it a punch from the other side....
     
  18. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Thank you Skutt50 every thing very stiff and no punch to hit with and the main spring barrel top wont come of will leave for now come back to it later need that barrel in one peace as other has teeth missing
    But only one hole in the picture Graham sent that one had one each end
     
  19. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    #19 gmorse, Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
    Hi Edwin,

    Not sure what you mean here about only one hole. Are we talking about the barrel or the centre wheel now?

    Whilst the screw holes in the centre wheel bridge might line up if you're very lucky, the steady pins underneath it probably won't. The alignment of the top and bottom holes for the centre wheel arbor, (and indeed for any other wheel), is critical if the wheel is to run upright, engage properly and not bind.

    Even if the barrel and centre wheel are the right size with the correct tooth and pinion counts, there's still the matter of whether their arbors fit the holes in which they have to turn.

    Since the old barrel had several teeth stripped off, I wonder if the centre pinion, which engages with the barrel wheel, is also damaged; it's hard to tell from the picture. One of the common causes for damage like this is the breakage of the mainspring which can release a lot of energy quite suddenly, with serious consequences, so you may find a broken spring when you open that barrel.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  20. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Got it out thank you made a punch just the main spring left
     
  21. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hi Graham done the centre wheel
    Trying to open the main spring barren and it dosnt wont to open

    62163C57-C105-4334-A969-95E4EFE77C62.jpeg
     
  22. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin,

    Insert a screwdriver in the rectangular slot, making sure it's engaged properly, and push the handle down firmly, with a finger on top to stop it flying off into nowhere. Some lids are tight, but it will come off!

    Have you got something to clean the parts with?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  23. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hi Graham every thing apart now thank you spring was still in its place got it out all soaking in cleaning fluid now looking good
    Hop i haven't been to much of a pain asking questions

    70BF73CB-86DF-4BCC-8BA7-EED7C5AC58B9.jpeg
     
  24. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    Congratulations.....

    One additional problem: The spring seems like it is busted in the center. It looks like one where the barrel was spunn in reverse! Even if you manage to straighten it, it may soon break when under stress.....
     
  25. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hello Skutt50 iv cleaned it and wound it back in it look ok what do you thinks missing

    F729F1BD-B8D2-4FBD-8A4D-262EE8AB4A0E.jpeg
     
  26. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin,

    Nothing's actually missing, but that spring has been badly bent in the centre, possibly by being wound the wrong way. It should end in a smooth curve and the hole in the end should hook onto the projection on the central snail. If you try and bend it back it may very well fracture.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  27. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    Thanks Graham.Yes that is what I meant.

    As it is, it will probably not catch when you try to wind it. Make sure the click gets a good grip to avoid any reversing of the winding arbor or you risk damaging any replacement mainspring. Could possibly the mainspring in the other movement be usable? Too bad this was damaged since it seems to be a newer type ("unbreakable")
     
  28. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Thank you both thats how it was when i opend it so thot it was ok not looked at the other one yet cross fingers if that one no good then not much more i can do
     
  29. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    #29 Skutt50, Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
    You can always measure the old mainspring and order a new.......

    Just make sure the rest of the movement is performing before making new investments.

    Suppliers are listed in a stickey thread at the top of the repair forum ;
    Watch Parts and Service Sources
    You my also get lucky if you have a watchmaker nearby. You might find one that keep a stock of old mainsprings.
     
  30. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin,

    All is not lost, springs are readily available in a wide range of sizes. Selecting the correct spring means accurately measuring the height and thickness of the existing spring, and also the inside diameter of the barrel and the outside diameter of the snail. A micrometer or a vernier caliper is needed for this. However installing a new spring will be pointless unless the replacement barrel and centre wheel fit properly!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  31. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Good morning Graham and Skutt50 thank you both after i take the better one apart will see if all fit and working as you both have seed
    The wheel and barrel have clean up nicely (as long as they fit )
    Its truly fascinating how they made this watches so small the detail is outstanding and so lng ago i don't think i would be brave enough to go inside my Waltham or Elgin watches as they work
    Thank you again
    Edwin
     
  32. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    These movements were made i Switzerland under a so called Cottage Industri Scheme. Someone made wheels, someone made springs etc. etc. and finally the watch was assembled in different steps. You will notise that the screws differ. I believe they had different thread cutters and depending on where in the process the watch was, the screws used were not the same as used in the previous step. Also because of the hand made parts the watchmaker had to adjust each movement to fit the parts at hand. You sometimes find scratch marks in the plates from the process.
     
  33. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin,

    This is why the parts aren't interchangeable as a rule.

    IMG_0898 - Copy (2).JPG

    These are some of the layout marks that Skutt mentions.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  34. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    Thanks Graham. You are the best!

    I am on vacation and don't have access to movements but that is exactly what I was refering to!
     
  35. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    #35 Clockmaker1900, Aug 8, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
    Thank you Graham and Skutt for that information thats a lot of marks on there
    I havnt started on the better one yet as i no i have to make sure no more gets damage that is already done then can find out if they fit or not
    Its a shame you see lots of this little swiss watches in junk shops not as many people wont to fix them
    Glad there are Gentlemen like your selfs who do see just how nice they are
    And wont to keep them going
    Iv always worn a wrist watch since young but there something bit more special when i go out with my Albert and pocket watch on
     
  36. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Good after noon Graham and Skutt50
    Well you both warned me and of cause both right naive on my side hopping would be the same
    The wheel i needed is bigger than broken one
    And the main spring barren slightly bigger too shame spring looks ok in this one i think
    I so a nice one yesterday working with one broken hand but wasnt sure if hands are same size and plus throwing more money at it

    8A41B204-37C9-4CCF-AE99-945BE3F31A2E.jpeg
     
  37. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Think ok but to big

    7C80B16F-DCE8-48BB-BAB4-E2D886121B44.jpeg
     
  38. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    Have you considered fitting the donor movement in the old case?

    If you are lucky you can get it moving with a COA. (Cleaning Oiling Adjustment)

    Before you spend too much time on it try it in the case. Does the hole for the winding key match the winding arbor? Does the dial fit or can you "move" the dial feet?
     
  39. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hello Skutt the idea was use bits of the bad one to get the better one going but barrel on bad wont fit and the centre wheel is a bit bigger too
    But to top it of the but the balance wheel on bad one broke
    The one on the better one lovely condition but what are the chaces that the cylinder on the balance wheel would be the same
    The better one looks slightly bigger on top
     
  40. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    One of left was the bad one and it diff slightly wont go in the silver case
    So close but very far away
    I would need centre wheel
    Main spring and housing drum for it
    I could bye one working for less its a shame now its clean the case and face are really nice very clean for age

    91FD777B-A878-4038-A670-70329B2ACA90.jpeg
     
  41. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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  42. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    OK it sounds like you really would like this movement back in action.

    The center wheel can be repaired. One can cut out a bit of brass where the broken tooth is and solder a new piece in place, which then is shaped to a functioning tooth. It is a bit trickey, especially the first time, but not impossible.........

    The barrel is a bit more trickey. Probably best to replace. (Perhaps Graham has some other suggestion.) If you can give me its dimmensions I can have a look in my spare parts bin. It can work but often the center arbor is not fitting properly........... (I will however not be back in my workshop until the later part of August......)

    The cylinder will probabaly not fit...... I have replaced a number of cylinders over the years and always have to make modifications to each replacement piece. The diameter, the height and the placement of the cylinder opening are critical and need to match the escape wheel "perfectly"..... ( Today I actually try to avoid replacing these unless it is a very special watch.)

    The more skilled watchmakers can replace only the pivot. It comes as a plug that fits the cylinder and can be replaced, but personnally I have not been sucessful. I have the tools and pivots but seem unable to remove the broken plug in a safe way....
     
  43. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Hello Skutt50
    Iv put most of it back together now i should have measured or looked for a number fixing the centre wheel is out of my limits
    There is only 3 things wrong to fix a very nice victorian silver watch
    Centre wheel
    Main spring
    And main spring barrel
    I say only but thats whats broke every thing els looks to be ok the balance
    spring is still moving
    Ill feel as if i come to the end spent so many hours on it spent hours trying to get the smallest screw on it back holds the brass holder around the hand winder only few bits to put back as u can see very clean for age
    Im back to work tom i had hop it would have been going naive of me thinking parts would fit but live and learn

    5E18B881-3374-430A-AA6B-C60E2C64F07A.jpeg
     
  44. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Edwin,

    This is certainly possible but Skutt's description of it being a bit tricky is something of an understatement! The single tooth on the centre wheel is a delicate job on a wheel this size, however the whole row of teeth on the barrel is another matter again which requires more complex surgery, possibly involving destroying another barrel to provide the necessary section of the wheel to splice into place. Both these wheels are at the 'power' end of the train and are under most pressure, so they have to fit exactly. If you can find a barrel with the correct dimensions and tooth count the barrel arbor can be made to fit one way or another. To help with finding another barrel it will be necessary to count its teeth and measure its diameter across the teeth accurately.

    Do we know whether the balance pivots are indeed intact? Removing a broken pivot and plug from a Swiss cylinder is a delicate operation, and I confess that I usually replace the whole cylinder complete with its plugs if I have the correct size in my collection, but failing that, I have to replace just the plug. The pivots are typically around 0.15mm in diameter.

    A restorer acquaintance of mine uses the neat tag line in his adverts, 'only economics dictate what is possible', which I think sums up the issue here very succinctly; how much is it worth spending on this watch? With respect, it doesn't sound as though you yet possess the level of skills and knowledge needed to do this work, so you're left with either sending it out or leaving it as it is and finding a running watch of this type, (of which there are still a great many in circulation) to give your girlfriend.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  45. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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    Good morning Graham & skutt50
    Yes i totaly agree Graham i gave it a go i found the watch in a attic shop £28
    I admit i didnt see how much damage there was inside but thot i would like to give it a go if all well give it to my Girlfriend who like old silver
    And with it being Cylinder Escapement a lot harder to fix i think
    Yes the balance wheel looks ok
    As it is such a nice looking watch I will keep it as a reminder not to be so naive iv learnt a lot from taking them apart and with out your help i couldn't have got as far as i did
    So thank you both for your time and help
    They still amaze me the skill and craftsmanship maybe a crown and stem wound would be better to try fix :???: Or maybe not
    Thank you again for your time
    Edwin
     
  46. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

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    It depends on how modern the watch is. There are many stem wound pocket watches with similar problems of finding parts. Some are difficult to identify to know what to look for and others are hard to find parts to. The more modern the watch is, in general, the easier it is to find parts.

    At the same time there are more parts to deal with, so more to keep track of and to understand how they interact. The basics are not that hard once you get the hang of it but I don't think I will ever understand everything............

    If you are genuinly interested in watchmaking go ahead and look for more objects (it is a very addictive hobby) but if you are looking for just one watch for your girlfriend, the investment in tools and time will not pay off.
     
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  47. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

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  48. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

    Mar 14, 2008
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    I think you will find it much easier to find spare parts to a Waltham. Not only are parts easier to find but they can also be switched between movements. Some parts (mainly plates, bridges, cocks, mainspring barrel and balance wheel) could but should not be switched since the serial number (or part of it) is marked on said parts and collectors are not keen on movements with mixed numbers.

    As for your collection. Congratulations.... Just a reminder. Old watches that has not been serviced for many years may run but would benefit from a service. Old oil and gunk may cause excessive wear over time. If you learn how to service a movement (preferably on some junk movements) it is possibly worth it as an investment for servicing your own watch collection.

    Another friendly comment: Overwound watch. When you get into watch repair you will find that overwound watches does not exist. They are either broken or gummed up and has stopped running. Then, in an attempt to start them, they have been fully wound but of course do not start. The owner then think they wound to much and calls it overwound when in reality if needs service and/or repair.
     
  49. Clockmaker1900

    Clockmaker1900 Registered User

    Aug 5, 2019
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    Hello Skutt50 thank you about the over wound i didnt no that and i dont wont to learn to sell its to keep them so part numbers yes better to keep the same but would only be me that would no
    Then as you seed i could service them if i got to understand them
    But i do no its not easy
    Seen a waltham online runs but stops after few min something like that would be a good start if the price was right
    But yes i collect them have a few Waltham and an Elgin
    And i do wear them on a albert when wether nice
     
  50. Skutt50

    Skutt50 Registered User

    Mar 14, 2008
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    You could get a book on watchmaking and together with e.g. one or a few scrap watches to take apart and assemble, will get you started. You can expect to break some pivots, damage some hairsprings and loose some screws etc. before you get the feel of it. Therefore scrap movements are the best for practise.

    Some books that got me started are De Carle "Practical Watch Repairing" which is available as reprint and:
    "Chicago School of Watchmaking" in some 35 lessons, which is an old mail course that should be available on line somewhere. Sorry I have no working links!

    There are several other books of course but these, even if some techniques are old time, still tells you a lot on watchmaking.........

    You can also do a search on e.g. Getting Started here on the forum.

    Good luck!
     

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