Swing Clock

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by RonR, Jul 11, 2007.

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  1. RonR

    RonR Registered User

    Apr 11, 2005
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    I am working on this type of swing clock for the first time. This one is called The Bat Boy. I have not done anything to the movement so far but oil it, but it does not want to run yet. Can anyone give me any advise on the secrets of getting this type of clock balanced and running properly.
     

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  2. RonR

    RonR Registered User

    Apr 11, 2005
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    Here is what the inside of the movement looks like.
     

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  3. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Wish I could help. I have never worked on one of these. I KNOW others here have.
    HERE: I'll move it back to the top and mebbe they'll be along shortly.
     
  4. RonR

    RonR Registered User

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    Here is a shot of the back of the movement after I disassembled, cleanded, pegged the bushings, oiled and reassembled.
    It still does not want to run. Need help.
     

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  5. TonyR

    TonyR Registered User
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    Hi,

    When you say it does not run, does it tick and just not swing the clock to and fro, or doesn't it do anything at all? I'm curious about that patterning on the movement plate -- was it stripped down before it was cleaned?

    regards,

    TonyR.
     
  6. RonR

    RonR Registered User

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    Tony,
    It will tick as it swings for just a few beats and then stops. It seems not to be balanced well. It does not seem to hang perfectly straight up and down. I am not sure if I understand your question about patterning or stripping, maybe you can ask in another way.
    When I disassembled the movement for cleaning thr front plate could not be disassembled from the dial. You may be able to see a threaded screw just above the escapement gear and another at the edge of the movement at the 3 o'clock position. Those come through the front plate from the back of the dial and I could not find a way to disassemble the two. So the front plate was not cleaned. I was only able to peg out its bush holes. The remainder of the movement was properly cleaned. The pattern that you see on the inside of the front plate is the way I found it when I opened it.
     
  7. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I suspect that this is one of the newer Korean made clocks. If so, it has two pins that sit inside some jeweled pivot points. Those pins MUST be perfectly sitting into the holes or it won't run, and it's quite easy to get them in wrong. I'd check that first, then get back to us on where you are.
     
  8. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    Ron,

    Did you remove the mainspring, clean, and lubricate it? Also, did you check it for "tired spring" syndrome?

    Jeremy
     
  9. RonR

    RonR Registered User

    Apr 11, 2005
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    :clap:

    Kept playing with it and I think I have solved my own problem. The key was back when I said that it seems to be not balanced well and did not seem to hang perfectly straight up and down. That kept bothering me. So I bent the bottom tail where the weight bulb is to one side and then the other sort of trial and error like until I found a place where I got an even beat and the clock just started running with not problem at all.

    I do not think that this is a reproduction. It has a porcelain face and at the bottom (although damanged) you can see the end of the word Junghans and very clearly Germany. see picture and there are not any jeweled pivot points.
     

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  10. TonyR

    TonyR Registered User
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    Hi,

    Congratulations -- and a nice clock.

    TonyR.
     
  11. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    This is a very unusual case style. Of the 40 Junghans swingers pictured on Antique Clocks Price Guide, only one is similar (but not the same). All the others are the more typical style with the three vertical rods and cast ribbon ornament above the dial.
     
  12. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Some swingers have a weighted side on the bottom (where you bent it). By turning it, a balance point can be found. Maybe yours is like that? That bend would bother me :)
     
  13. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    RonR, first of all this is NOT a repro clock, it is an authentic Junghans. Here are some things to check:

    1) Do you have the back cover for the movement case? If not, you will not be able to make the clock keep time as the weight of the cover partially offsets weight of the pendulum bob and MUST be there as there is not enough adjusting range to screw the bob up high enough to slow down the clock. REMEMBER that raising the bob on these clocks makes them go slower, not faster as in an ordinary pendulum clock. This is because these clocks actually are compound pendulums, with the pendulette in the movement creating the imbalance needed to keep them running. Lowering the bob will make it run faster. If you don't have an original cover, you can make one using the cap from a grandfather clock weight shell of the correct diameter. I've done that for two of these.

    2) To make the clock run properly it must balance perfectly vertically. What you have done in bending the bottom rod is to actually put it out of balance, to offset an incorrect adjustment of the upper small pendulette in setting the beat. Here are the steps you need to take:

    (a) Bend the rod back into position until the entire case is perfectly vertical when sitting on the jewel bar. Check that the bottom tip below the ball is centered with the middle of the casting just above the rod, then centered with the support pins on the jewel bar, and that is centered with the minute arbor. When the clock is at rest all these points need to be in a vertical line.

    (b) Now check that the movement is also in the vertical position. The 12 and the 6 on the dial need to be in vertical alignment with the rest of the case. This is VERY important to ensure you can set the beat properly. From your pics it appears the movement is rotated slightly toward the counterclockwise direction looking from the front. There is some slack in mounting these movements, so you can slightly rotate them to bring them to the vertical position. Slightly loosen the movement holding screws and rotate the movement until the 12 and 6 on the dial are in vertical alignment with the rest of the case as described in (a). I check this by looking along the length of the case to see that the tip if the upper finial, the 12 and 6 on the dial, the minute arbor tip, the balance pins, the center of the casting at the bottom of the case and the bottom tip of the adjusting rod are ALL in a perfectly straight line.

    (c) Now that you have everything vertical, you will need to adjust the pendulette anchor until the clock is in beat. Place the case on the jewel bar, and gently start it swinging. Listen to the "tick-tick" or use an amplifier to pick that up. Determine which side has the shortest "tick", you will need to rotate the pendulette anchor in that direction to balance the beat. The pendulette anchor (the angled part on the pendulette assembly in which the pin pallets are fixed) is a friction fit on the arbor shaft and can be rotated right or left to bring the clock into beat. To do this, first let down the mainspring so there is no power on the movement. Now remove the two screws holding the anchor bridge, take out the pendulette, slightly rotate the anchor toward the side that has the short "tick", and reinstall. You must do this VERY carefully or you may bend or break the pin pallets. This is a pain in the you-know-what but MUST be done to get the clock to operate properly. Now wind the mainspring about 1/4 turn and check the beat again. With some trial and error you will know which way and how much to rotate the anchor to bring it right into beat.

    3) With everything vertical and the escapement in beat, the clock should run without any problems. Wind it up and let it run, after 24 hours put on the back cover and then you can regulate it to time. Normally these have a swing of about 10 to 15 degrees from vertical in each direction with the cover in place, it will be less without the cover.

    These instructions will work on ANY swinger clock . . remember VERTICAL BALANCE is critical and all-important for the clock to run properly. The vertical position requires the least amount of energy impulse from the pendulette to keep the clock running, and once you have properly balanced the clock in the vertical position and set the beat they should all run well.

    John Hubby
    >>>>


     
  14. RonR

    RonR Registered User

    Apr 11, 2005
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    John,
    Thanks for the detailed instructions and yes I do have the back cover.
    Ron R
     
  15. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Dear
    Dear John,
    read your detailed instructions. I have a jughams swinger under repair whose movement is now running well after overhaul but I am unable to get it swing. Obviously I have not yet balance it well.
    1. The movement is original.
    2. The tick and tock are evenly spaced when i give it a swing but it stops after 5 mins.
    3. Where should the CG of the swinger be for clock to swing.
    4. Does the pendulette hit the end pins for clock to swing. presently the pendulette is swinging to about within 3mm each side of the stop pins. If the pins are to be touched / hit by the pendulette during each swing then I have to lower the pallet pins.
    5. Presently I am not using the cover but have balanced it with reduction of corresponding weight from the swinger bob.
    6. I have been given to understand that the total weight of the system should be around 225 gms. image att.

    do help out please.

    regards
    Sanjay Bajpai

    20181211_182830.jpg 20181211_182839.jpg 20181211_182854.jpg 20181211_182939.jpg 20181211_183034.jpg
     
  16. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I have replied to your other thread, and we really should keep all comments over there, Sanjay. Don't think about the GC at this point. It doesn't have that big of an affect on the clocks ability to run.
     
  17. bangster

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    #17 bangster, Dec 11, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  18. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Thanks please.
    Will go through "All about pendulums" especially compound ones
    Sanjay
     
  19. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Shutt, the CG determines how fast or slow the clock will run; I agree it has little to do with the clock being in beat.

    I suspect the main problem with Sanjay's clock is that it is not in beat. As per my instructions above the first job is to get the clock perfectly vertical without the movement running. To check beat, first set up a reference point near the bottom of the pendulum..Then, slowly move the pendulum end back and forth while listening to the tick and tock of the escapement. These should occur exactly the same distance either side of the reference point. To change the beat, you need to rotate the pendulette right or left on the shaft of the pin pallet escape arbor. This cab be done using long curved needle-nose pliers to grasp the pallet anchor plate while rotating the pendulette with your fingers. Not easy but can be managed, do "not" try to rotate the pendulum by forcing the pallet pins against the escape wheel, this is a sure way to bend or break the pins.
     
  20. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Dear John,
    Very kind of you sir to reply. I will follow the instructions and see if it swings. Presently out will come back and try again
    Regards
    Sanjay
     
  21. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Thanks a ton for the lead. I did and did learn.
    Regards
    Sanjay
     
  22. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    A
    Actually clock runs fine.its the swinging motion which does not sustain
    Regards
    Sanjay
     
  23. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Sir,
    Your instructions followed. Clock pendulette and movement was made vertical. The pendulum and pendulette adjusted so that tick and tock are equidistant fron rest of the Bob centreline. The beat is equal now. The pendulette swings freely to an independent beat of 274 bmp. Main Spring has now been changed to one from Timesavers. The compound pendulum swings freely, YET when the swinger is set in motion it does not sustain beyond a minute. This is my first swinger repair so it's difficult for me to gauge exact problem. Request help please
     
  24. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Stops after five minutes. Hmmm.

    I know nothing about clocks like these, but I suspect either a bent pivot, which can drive you nuts, or wear in the escapement bushings.

    And so you'll have to disassemble the thing again. Don't despair, for the job will be much faster this time and many clocks require multiple disassemblings before they run correctly. To check for a bent pivot, pull the movement out after it has stopped and let down the mainspring completely. Then check each wheel to see if it is perfectly free--with the plates held parallel to the ground, you should be able to lift each wheel with a tiny screwdriver and then see it drop back down when it is released. Same deal with the pallets and the mainspring wheel (or barrel, whichever it has.)

    If that seems okay, you'll probably want to re-bush the pallet arbor pivots and the pivots of the escape wheel. Often these will seem perfectly satisfactory when inspected, but it doesn't take much lost motion to stop the clock after a while. And while you're at it, look at each tooth of the escape wheel, for a bent tooth tip can make life miserable.

    M Kinsler
     
  25. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Dear Mr Kindler,
    Thanks for you tips n encouragement. Will do as told. The gear train is absolutely free and has end shakes as you told. I am not so sure about pallet arbour. Will take it off n rebush if required. Though all escapewheel teeth were mirror polished.
    The pendelutte swings and clock runs fine for the time the main spring has about 1/4 turn left. It's the compound pendulum that seems more than my reach.
    Regards
     
  26. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    It requires more energy to swing an entire pendulum than it does to swing a short pendulum leader or, in this case, the pendulette that swings the whole clock. This is due to the increased air friction encountered by the entire swinging clock. If there is any lost motion in the escapement--this would be caused by loose pivots in the escape wheel and/or the pallet arbor--a good deal of the available energy will be lost.

    One other matter worth checking on is whether the movement is being flexed or twisted in any way as it is screwed into place. The plates are quite flexible, and a pivot that seems bushed to proper clearances can bind in its hole if there is distortion in the plates. This distortion can be due to an improper mounting of the movement itself, or in rare cases it can come from the force of the mainspring once it is wound up. (This last would be very difficult to find, for then we'd have a clock which runs better with a run-down mainspring. I have not encountered this yet.)
     
  27. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Dear kindled,
    Understood please. Pl see the video. Of course it's unbalanced now as it appears being without back cover, however , it's countered by reduction in wt from pendulum bob.
    Total wt of the compound system is 253gms. I think it should be 252 GM's as specified and CG is 3mm below pivots.
    I try to redo it again as suggested by members please n will let know
    Regards
     
  28. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    #28 shutterbug, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
    It's been a while since I saw one of these types of swingers, so I'll ask a question instead of making it a statement: Isn't there supposed to be some kind of suspension spring involved? I know that Ansonia used them and so did French makers.

    Edit: I looked at some pics and answered my own question - no springs.
    The pins have to be very sharp and pointed, and there is usually jewels that the pins fit into. Maybe some pics of those parts would help us to help you.
     
  29. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    You are right please. In Ansonia swinger there was a cross suspension spring while in Jughams its the pointed pivots resting on cupjewels
    photos for reference. I have used two faure lube jazz table clock jeweled pivot screws ( one can use Wherle strikemaster table clock pivot screws also) Its swinging absolutely freely. The small pendelutthe is also working fine. Its the combination I have still not been able to tune. Perhaps Ill move the CG up a bit as the wt of the pendulette is very small and thus countering force is miniscule. ASS suggested by Mr Kinsler above I be at it till it gets there
    regards

    KD clock 2 dec 18 (7).png KD clock 2 dec 18 (9).png
     
  30. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Movement is Jughams swinger
     
  31. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That bottom cup looks off center. Are the pins hitting exactly in the center of both cups?
     
  32. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Yes sir it is pin tips are in centre of the cups with pin tips resting in the bottom not touching any sides. So hopefully it should work. A puff of air makes the swing last for about a minute n 20 seconds of course slowly
    Regards
     
  33. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Ah.

    So if it has power, and no obvious obstructions, this project is at the stage where others (wives, children, or friends) begin to inquire, "Are you still working on that old clock of yours?"

    You'll also be advised to throw the thing away, find a new pastime, or have your sanity checked by a professional. This is how you know that you are learning clock repair in the proper manner.

    Meanwhile, consider re-bushing the pivots in the escapement, and please let us know how things are progressing.
     
  34. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Dear Mr Kinsler,
    Very kind of you to check my sanity and obviously you are a much better clock repairer. I initially only stated that it's the swinger balance I have not got up till now but will follow yours and other esteemed members advice and redo it again. May be I look for another pastime in near future as now I have crossed 60. Ha ha haaaa.
    Regards
     
  35. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Stay with clock repair, for it's clear from your posts that you are quite good at it. I believe that age helps provide the patience required this kind of work, and you have demonstrated great patience. There are many difficult clocks, and we will all learn something from your 'swinger.'

    Mark Kinsler
     
  36. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    I will bush the escapement n pallet fork as suggested please and come back.
    Regards
    Sanjay Bajpai
     
  37. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Dear Mr Mark,
    So very kind of you for your encouragement. Of course all is in lighter vein n for laughter only. Yes it does happen and in great humour that old neighbouring ladies do ask " you don't have any other clock to repair:???:?" I am only a beginner as compared to the vast experience of the esteemed members. Well sir will keep at it till it functions. It's my first swinger so hope ultimately I am able to provide a working piece to its owner. Meanwhile will keep troubling you all
    Regards
    Sanjay Bajpai
     
    PatH and kinsler33 like this.
  38. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    God bless and wishes for a very happy n prosperous new year ahead to all members
     
  39. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    #38 Sanjay Bajpai, Jan 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
    Dear members

    Thanks for all the advice n encouragement. The clock is now swinging as a canting horse if it be permitted to compare.

    I thank all members with special mention of mr John for all their pertinent advice.
    I learnt a couple of facts which are important to the swingers.

    Since till escape wheel the clock was running absolutely free so it was clear no bushings were needed.

    I suspected the kick of the pendelutte to be inadewuate which in turn would cause inadequate lateral forces, so I changed the diameter of pins in the pallet from 0.28mm to 0.32mm. The effect was that the pins are now not riding a point but slipping on teeth as they should causing vectors to the pallet. This increases the kick to quite an extent. However increasing the dia too much is not adviced.

    The 2nd point is that the cg of the system is important and should rest just below the lower end of jewel bar, so a couple of Gms of displacement of the small pendelutte plus the lateral force of the swing good enough to causes the system to swing.

    Rest is same as in all clocks. Avoid ovality in bushes n polish pivots opinion n teeth
    Thanks again please
    Regards

    20190119_174741.jpg
     
  40. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    #39 Sanjay Bajpai, Jan 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
    Total weight of the system for this jughams swinger is 253 gms
     
  41. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Dear Members

    Thread for restored Swinger video

    clock had a broken dial, missing bezel and crystal missing minute wheel plus other ills.
     
  42. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    This technique of replacing damaged cup jewels with jewelled pivot screws did not work. The entire problem of clock not sustaining the swing was this only. "Do not use jewelled cup screws" ONLY CUP JEWELS WORK.
    regards
     
  43. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Very nice.

    Are you saying that (1) there is no suspension spring and (2) the pivots are jeweled, with very sharp steel pins bearing on cup-shaped jewels ?

    Mark Kinsler
     
  44. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Sir,
    Only ansonia swinger had cross suspension unit with strip springs. This model has, as you said, still pins with sharp points resting on jewels in the support bar. Photos included
    Regards
    Sanjay

    magnifier_20190302_190136.png magnifier_20190302_190152.png magnifier_20190302_190209.png
     
  45. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It looks like it's running quite well now! Good job!
     
  46. Sanjay Bajpai

    Sanjay Bajpai Registered User

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    Thanks sir and to all members for their periodic and timely suggestions
     

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