Stumped by a Schatz 49

Ibehooved

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I purchased this clock , replaced the torsion spring and added the missing bottom block. It ran nicely for two or three months and then it stopped. I have had it apart a couple of times. Most recently, I cleaned it, polished the pivots, pegged the pivot holes, replaced the mainspring. The gear train spins nicely with two or thee clicks of power. I can move the anchor manually through several full rotations of the escape wheel and it doesn’t hang. The motion train is removed so obviously the hands are not in play. I can tell it is going to stop because
 

Ibehooved

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(Posted prematurely) when I put it in beat overswing decreases about 1/8” with every 2 Or 3 rotations. It will only “run” for about 20 minutes before it stops. Attached are some photos. Any ideas? I am stumped.
3163F740-A77B-40AF-9212-81D24FD5310F.jpeg 2E904248-D822-43FA-8C29-944A4542D2ED.jpeg 6EB76944-884F-4B9F-9340-5FA768F4383F.jpeg
 

Schatznut

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The Schatz 49 is about the most bulletproof 400-day movement out there so something is definitely wrong. The next time it stalls, work your way backwards from the anchor down to the mainspring barrel - is the anchor hanging in free space or is one of the pallets resting on the escapement wheel? If the anchor is hanging freely, the problem is between the anchor and the pendulum. If you wiggle the escapement wheel slightly, does the wheel beneath it also move? Work your way down, wiggling and watching, until you get to the point where you wiggle a wheel and the one beneath it doesn't move. Your problem is in the lower wheel or the one beneath it. Also you might take off the hands, idler gear and hour cannon and see if it continues to run with them removed. If it does, something is binding in that portion of the mechanism. Let us know what you find.
 

Ibehooved

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It is stalled now, seemingly its current baseline state. The escape pallet is resting on the tip of one of the teeth of the escape wheel. Is this an eccentric nut adjustment? Or a slightly bent tooth? Each wheel in the train "wiggles" except the first wheel, but I would not expect it to since it is engaged with a fully wound mainspring barrel. I have been trying to get it to run with the hands, idler gear and hour cannon removed, so have already eliminated that potential source.
 

Schatznut

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Don't dink with the eccentric nut unless you have to and know exactly why. This anchor has fixed pallets and there's nothing to adjust. If you can wiggle all the wheels down to the first wheel, the problem is in that wheel or beneath it. If you can't move it, then the energy of the spring is holding it in place and it is jammed or it has a pinion leaf that is jammed against a tooth on the mainspring barrel. This is more common than you might imagine. If the clock ran for three weeks to a month before it quit, that's about the time it takes for the mainspring barrel to make one complete rotation.
 

Ibehooved

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So I assume the next step is to take the power off, take it apart, then reassemble with just the mainspring barrel, check for free rotation, then do the same for the first wheel alone, and finally for the first wheel and main sprig barrel together. Is that what you recommend?
 

Ibehooved

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or should I remove the anchor, reassemble and see if it will run under power for a full rotation of the mainspring barrel?
 

KurtinSA

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I think you should do the first. Do spin tests of each arbor by itself...give it a good spin and then flip the movement from one side to the other. If the spinning arbor comes to a screeching halt after flipping the clock, that's a problem. Then do the tests with adjacent arbors. You should feel no unusual tightness when doing that.

It looks like the eccentric is pristine and hasn't been touched. Moving that will modify the drops as the pallets drop off an escape wheel tooth. At the moment of drop, that distance should be equal for both pallets. But since your eccentric appears to be untouched, you're probably OK there.

Kurt
 
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Ibehooved

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I think you should do the first. Do spin tests of each arbor by itself...give it a good spin and then flip the movement from one side to the other. If the spinning arbor comes to a screeching halt after flipping the clock, that's a problem. Then do the tests with adjacent arbors. You should feel no unusual tightness when doing that.

It looks like the eccentric is pristine and hasn't been touched. Moving that will modify the drops as the pallets drop off an escape wheel tooth. At the moment of drop, that distance should be equal for both pallets. But since your eccentric appears to be untouched, you're probably OK there.

Kurt
Thanks everyone. I’ll let you know. But enough tinkering for today.
 

Ken M

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Of the clocks I have that creep to a stall, it's always been the beat. It won't be off by much, just enough so it will appear to run for a while and then stall. When I look at it, I can see it. Is it different, or were my eyes crossed?
 

Ibehooved

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OK. I have new information, but am not sure what it means. Bottom line is it still won't run. I want to be sure I am using the correct nomenclature in describing my test results. Starting with the mainspring barrel, the first wheel to mesh with that barrel is the first wheel? On up the gear train, through the 2nd and 3rd wheel, to the 4th wheel, which protrudes though the front of the clock and holds the minute hand. The 5th wheel would be the escapement wheel, and last place in the chain is the anchor (I would not refer to the anchor as a "wheel"). Is that the proper terminology?
 

KurtinSA

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It makes sense and I'm not sure I'm certain either. But I've been thinking of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, then it's the center arbor (minute hand) and finally the escape wheel and anchor. That's just me. Some of the miniatures have an extra wheel in there so it gets more complicated.

Kurt
 

Ibehooved

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It makes sense and I'm not sure I'm certain either. But I've been thinking of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, then it's the center arbor (minute hand) and finally the escape wheel and anchor. That's just me. Some of the miniatures have an extra wheel in there so it gets more complicated.

Kurt
OK. I'll go with that. As a reminder, this is a Schatz 49. The gear train testing conditions are: click wheel removed, mainspring powered down, canon pinion, idler and hands removed. The mainspring barrel rotates freely between the plates, as does wheel #1. Mainspring barrel + wheel #1 also rotate freely. Mainspring barrel + #1, #2, and #3 rotate freely and smoothly too. When I add wheel #4 (minute hand) it is difficult to rotate by hand. If I use the let-down tool to help rotate the mainspring barrel, in runs unevenly, and there is a screeching sound about once a second that I believe is coming from the pivot hole for #4 on the front plate. Wheel #4 rotates freely when spun by itself with no screeching, and #3 with #4 without the other wheels runs equally freely with no screeching. I re-polished the pivots for #4 and #3 and re-pegged the pivot holes in the plates for those two wheels. On complete reassembly, under full power, it will stall after a few dozen rotations of the pendulum. I am Schatz-stuck.
 

KurtinSA

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I never try the arbor tests but adding each arbor all the way up. I test the main spring barrel and number 1. Then I test number 1 and 2. Keep going until you last test the center arbor and the escape wheel. If they all feel smooth with no perceived binding, then put the movement together without the anchor. Then begin turning the winding arbor one click at a time. If things are working well, one click or maybe two clicks will result in the escape wheel turning...it likely won't spin up crazily, but you should see it move a number of revolutions. If you get that, then you likely have a movement that will work in terms of power...no excessive friction. That said, the movement won't have the full load on each arbor which can shove a pivot into a hole deeper especially if the hole is wallowed out.

But do that and see where you end up.

Kurt
 

tracerjack

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I quickly went through the posts, so if this has already been tried, I apologize in advance. When replacing SS, it is easy to unknowingly squeeze the fork. Check that you have clearance at the far turns as well as center.
 

Ibehooved

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Without the anchor, two clicks sends the train spinning for a minute or two. Good suggestion on the fork, since that’s the only place left for resistance. So I spread the tines a scooch and polished the inside of the tines with my finest file. It still stalls after 15 minutes. Here is my next theory, at risk of great embarrassment. The escape wheel is rotating clockwise as a look in from the rear plate. The winding arbor winds clockwise when viewing from the rear plate. My Kundo escape wheel rotate counterclockwise as viewed from the rear. Could I have installed the new mainspring back asswards?
 

KurtinSA

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Unless you changed things, the first picture showing the rear plate shows the ratchet wheel in the proper orientation for winding counter clockwise. You physically can't rotate the winding arbor clockwise that I can tell. Your barrel orientation in the first pictures look correct, too.

Kurt
 

Ibehooved

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Unless you changed things, the first picture showing the rear plate shows the ratchet wheel in the proper orientation for winding counter clockwise. You physically can't rotate the winding arbor clockwise that I can tell. Your barrel orientation in the first pictures look correct, too.

Kurt
Thanks Kurt. I haven’t changed anything. Sometimes photos post in reverse. Do your Schatz EW rotate clockwise as observed from the rear plate?
 

KurtinSA

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Since your photos have the stampings on the back of the plate that is readable, the image is correct. I checked one of my Schatz 49 clocks and yes, the EW rotates clockwise when viewed from the rear. I haven't paid much attention to which way they rotate...just that they do!! :)

Kurt
 
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Les Sanders

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Well I just finished a problem matic Kundol went through everything 6 times. Then I got my webster escape wheel straightener and went over each tooth some had a slight curl to the tips - the I topped off the teeth in the lathe, been running ever since. so many thing to consider!
 

Dells

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Running for 15 minutes it does seem as though the pendulum is not getting the impulse it needs to keep running usually fork to tight or loose, but also could be top and or bottom block sloppy fit .
 

Ibehooved

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Thanks guys for your ideas. Like, you, I think I have eliminated a power loss through the gear train. I have visually examined the EW teeth and don’t see anything. I’ll check the blocks. Good idea. I have been through everything 6 times. This clock my have beat me, which would make me 11 for 12. It may be “free to a good home”. It is keeping me up at night.
 

KurtinSA

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Have you evaluated the locks and drops of the escapement? With a little bit of power on the main spring, I move the tip of the anchor pin slowly from one side to another watching for good drops which is the distance the escape wheel tooth clears a pallet just as it drops off. It should be even on both sides and something on the order of 0.5-1.0mm...it has to be a visual evaluation to see that you have some physical drop. As for locks, the escape wheel must fully land on the lock surface of the pallet...it can't be 4-5mm (I'm exaggerating) but should be maybe 1mm or so? Once the initial drop is there, the over swing will move the tooth further up the pallet. The amount of distance that the tooth spends dragging across the lock face can add to power loss in the form of drag.

Another thing to check is the position of the anchor pin as the escape wheel tooth slides down the impulse face. I want to see that the pin is vertical when the tooth has completed about 1/3 of the travel down the impulse face.

See how those parameters stack up on your clock.

Kurt
 

Ken M

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Use a toothpick to move the anchor pin back and forth. You should get an impulse when the anchor pin is vertical in both directions like Kurt says. Screw drivers are magnetic and will interfere with the movement of the anchor.
 

Dells

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Just another thought if the fork is to high it would cause the same , as the smaller the bit between top block and fork the the stronger it is and there wouldn’t be enough power to twist it enough for the impulse, you may have already checked that .
I normally lower fork until it flutters then up it by 1mm at a time until it not fluttering.
Dell
 

TQ60

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A different take on this.

If the pallet is hung up on escape wheel tooth it may be a clue.

The escape wheel pushes the pallet to transfer energy to pendulum.

With a tooth pick you can push another gear to add som power to see what happens.

If a lack of power the pallet will not slide off and the clock stops.

If the face of the pallet is worn it also may not properly slide.

Had this on an Atmos that drove us nuts until we got a good camera on it.

It takes a tiny amount of error to cause just enough lack of power to have the clock stop.

Like taking most of the spark plugs out after reaching Cruise speed, not enough power to keep up so slowly degrades until stop.
 

David Provan

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You're going to hate me. Bought my first 49, a 3/54, in pretty tatty condition and with the traditional broken suspension. Dug out a length of .004, made the suspension up to Terwilliger design, put a little oil here and there and started it going. Still going a couple of weeks later, waiting for its strip and polish. Didn't alter the beat, did a small touch of regulation.

Of course, I know damn well that once I've serviced the thing it'll never go again....
 
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Ibehooved

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You're going to hate me. Bought my first 49, a 3/54, in pretty tatty condition and with the traditional broken suspension. Dug out a length of .004, made the suspension up to Terwilliger design, put a little oil here and there and started it going. Still going a couple of weeks later, waiting for its strip and polish. Didn't alter the beat, did a small touch of regulation.

Of course, I know damn well that once I've serviced the thing it'll never go again....
Congratulations David. I have several of these running and several that refuse to run no matter how much effort a brilliant ideas I put in. I am convinced the condition of the clock is far more important than my interventions.
 

David Provan

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#30. Yes, Dells. Now, my pretty Kundo Mini.........
 

MartinM

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I'd definitely try lowering the fork on the spring, a bit. I always use the later (6789) placement from the guide for 49s as my starting point.
 

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