Student-made watches of factory parts. +/-/= value?

[MrRoundel]

Greetings folks.

Are movements made by watchmaking school students, using factory parts, worth more, less, or of equal value to their factory equivalents? I do realize that some student watches are dressed up. I do suspect that there may be collectors who have some focus on such watches, but I don't think their numbers would be that great.

My question pertains to watches of average finish, and to the general market.

Heck, why don't I post a poll?

 

[topspin]

This is an interesting topic. Can you give us a bit more context please...

Are we talking about watches which have only just recently been assembled from left-over stock, or are we talking about watches assembled by students, say, 10-150 years ago?

How do we identify such watches - is there, say, a register or a certificate or some distinguishing feature which sets them apart from a hobbyist's frankenwatch?

Can you give us some insight as to how much of the process was typically done at the watchmaking school? For example, did they start right from scratch or from an ebauche? Did they assemble a full, completed watch (with dial, hands, case, bow, gilting, damaskeening, engraving, etc) or did the lessons only go up to a certain point, leaving the students to their own devices after that?

Thanks...

 

[MrRoundel]

There have been watches made of Waltham factory parts that were purchased by the Waltham School of Horology. According to a 2003 Bulletin article, D. D. Palmer bought parts from the American Watch Co. in order to finish watches for his own business, as well as having his students finish them for projects. The article states that there aren't a lot of D.D. Palmer signed movements, made of mostly Waltham parts, out there. Those are probably fairly highly valued by some collectors. Supposedly, the movements finished by his students are more common.

I don't recall seeing one of these student watches before, and I don't even know how they'd be signed, numbered, etc. But I guess they exist out there. I'm just curious as to their general rarity and value. I guess I could have asked if anyone has a watch made by a student of the Waltham School of Horology, but chose this route. Granted, it probably wasn't the best route. Thanks for any input anyone has on this. If none, that's OK. I tossed it out there with minimal hope.

I may post a less cryptic topic that will elucidate on my reasons in the not so distant future. In the meantime, if the question is difficult to answer without better context, let me just say, in my best Gilda Radner as Roseanne Rosannadanna voice, "Never mind". Cheers.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Interesting examples are very collectible to the right buyers but there is no simple answer as the market will vary greatly depending on maker of the base material, who it was finished by and when, finish quality, and eye appeal.

Here’s a Peoria Horological School example I posted years ago on this board …

 

[MrRoundel]

Thanks Fred Hansen , that Peoria school example is beautifully marked, and leaves little doubt as to its origins, etc. Perfect. Cheers.

 

[topspin]

Thanks both. On the assumption that they are all like Fred's example, I shall cast my vote for "Higher value". I would be willing to pay a moderate premium for a watch like this over the equivalent factory model, on the basis that it scores highly for interestingness.
Conversely, if I already had at least one in my collection, then it would not be giving me so much additional interestingness, so I would bid accordingly.

 

[roughbarked]

The most accomplished student gets the highest marks.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

Here is an older thread touching on this topic - Friday Waltham Scan (Photograph)

 

[watchbob]

This one looks like it originally was a USA movt. - highly modified - anyone recognize it let me know !
Made By H H Smith

 

[MrRoundel]

That "H.H. Smith" marked movement cartainly has a very English looking hairspring stud attachment. In addition, I think I see a couple of holes that would likely have been made to accommodate Swiss style dial feet. Then again, the click looks American to me. One might truly wonder if this was a project watch that someone assembled using designs from around the watchmaking world. It's interesting. Cheers.

 

[musicguy]

It does look Swiss to me.


Rob

 

[MrRoundel]

It does look Swiss to me.
Rob

That's certainly a reasonable assessment, just based on the fact that the dial feet holes are empty. This would seem to show that at least the pillar-plate started out being made in the Swiss style.

An under-dial image might be helpful here.

 

[roughbarked]

The balance cock throws out quite a few good guesses of mine. I'd suggest that it started in Switzerland. That it has been extensively reworked and maybe the balance cock is of his own design?

 

[watchbob]

H H Smith - Detent style stem
under dial

 

[MrRoundel]

Thanks for the additional image.

Hmm...while the shape of the opening for the clutch and winding pinion looks odd in shape, there are things that look Waltham'ish here. I especially see this in the recess for the intermediate wheel. The Waltham would have that round end washer(?) with the countersunk hole in it that would hold things together beneath the clutch assembly. Then again, the pallet fork looks very Swiss. I'm stumped. Maybe it is a student watch. But made with some factory's parts?

 

[Jerry Treiman]

I just came across this image. It is from a 1927 promotion for the Elgin Watchmakers College as an insert in the back of an Elgin Material catalog. Do I see wolves teeth winding wheels?!

 

[MrRoundel]

I just came across this image. It is from a 1927 promotion for the Elgin Watchmakers College as an insert in the back of an Elgin Material catalog. Do I see wolves teeth winding wheels?!

Neat watch! And I'll be darned, I think you might see such winding wheels. It's subtle, but does look like it. Very interesting. Good eye, Jerry Treiman . Cheers.

 

[Bila]

Do I see wolves teeth winding wheels?!

You sure do

 

[gmeyer4]

There have been watches made of Waltham factory parts that were purchased by the Waltham School of Horology. According to a 2003 Bulletin article, D. D. Palmer bought parts from the American Watch Co. in order to finish watches for his own business, as well as having his students finish them for projects. The article states that there aren't a lot of D.D. Palmer signed movements, made of mostly Waltham parts, out there.

Does anyone know anything about this watch? It appears to be possibly made from Waltham 8 day parts and D. B. Fitts finished a few of them. It has a bit of an awful cutout.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Does anyone know anything about this watch? It appears to be possibly made from Waltham 8 day parts and D. B. Fitts finished a few of them. It has a bit of an awful cutout.

View attachment 755175

Interesting.
My only comment is the balance bridge looks very very Swiss.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

possibly made from Waltham 8 day parts and D. B. Fitts finished a few of them

I think that Fitts and the 8-day movements are from radically different eras. D.B. Fitts was from the mid-1800s and Waltham's large (37-size) nickel plate 8-day movement was from around 1910-11. Unless you are thinking of the first 20-size 8-day movements by Howard, Davis & Dennison or Marsh, but I believe those were gilt movements.
I do not see American origins in this watch.

 

[gmeyer4]

I think your right Greg, looks a bit like Longines.

Thanks Jerry,

This came along with another watch I bought at auction. I thought it was possibly a made up watch from parts.

 

[MrRoundel]

That's an odd one, almost certainly unique. I agree that its origins are almost certainly Swiss. The style of balance cap jewel, HS stud retention, and escape wheel/4th wheel bridge shape all look Swiss. It also appears that there is a brass plate at the base of the balance cock that obscures the true shape of the balance cock. Maybe it looked to weird without it?

I'd be interested to see what lies beneath the upper plate. The stamped number four makes it look like it was a plate from another watch that was flipped upside down and used as "cover plate".

Admittedly, I am very non-versed in 8 day movements of any type. Cheers.

 

[thesnark17]

The watch is built around and over a Swiss ebauche; Longines is as good a guess as any. You can see the edge of the original watch plate around the escapement (more material was added around it). A cock has had to be manufactured (crudely) for the 3rd wheel, which was moved off of its spot due to the mainspring barrel size.

Fascinating work.