Strange noise

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by Rob P., Oct 16, 2019.

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  1. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

    Dec 19, 2011
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    Still working on the BW Raymond. It's together and running but it has a strange noise I've never heard before.

    I've heard a hairspring rubbing before. That's a quick metallic "shushing" noise. I've heard the pallets clicking too but this noise is a new one for me.

    It's a "2-tone" like something being plucked in and out. Very similar in sound to the teeth on a hair comb being plucked twice in a row very fast. So it's a "dink-dink" noise.

    Shows up pendant right or left and goes away dial up or down and amplitude drops off when it's banging. Obviously, something is shifting enough to hit and tap something else but I don't know what except maybe the guard pin on the fork.

    Other than that, I've no idea what it could be so any help is appreciated.
     
  2. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Sounds like what my GM Wheeler #135251 does, except the Wheeler makes the noise DU/DD, but it goes away when it's vertical ( think) It doesn't seem to affect the amplitude, which is >270 at full wind.

    It's like a *twing* sound overlaid on top of the tick.
     
  3. topspy

    topspy Registered User
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    If the amplitude is very high, it may be the roller jewel coming around and hitting the outside of the fork horns. This makes a noise like you describe. Try reducing the strength of the mainspring perhaps.
     
  4. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    Maybe it was the demons inside the watch complaining about being evicted. The noise has gone away and the amplitude is strong in all positions although now the motion works seem to be slipping. It's losing minutes per hour yet my timing machine says it's running fast.

    Frustrating. I'll get it tamed, but it's frustrating.
     
  5. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    I don't think it's knocking. I've heard that once or twice and it sounds different than the gremilin I have in there right now..
     
  6. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    If the watch is seriously out of range on BPH, some timing machines will assume a higher beat count than 18,000 bph. This will result in what you are seeing. Could be the balance assembly is incorrect, or a pinion/wheel is incorrect. Motion work or EW pinion most likely if wheel count is wrong. If balance, missing or wrong screw, replaced spring or fouled spring.

    Need to determine the BPH of the balance assembly or count the train. Something like Microset will report BPH.
     
  7. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    My Microset shows it to be running around 18015 to 18020 BPH. The rate floats between 18012 and 18025 right now after I sped it up to see why it's losing time. - 2 minutes in the last half hour tells me the motion works are probably slipping. (ARGH, it's a pinned dial...)

    I'll double check the parts for grease/oil contamination. If necessary I have a couple of "spare" cannon tubes that can be reamed to fit. That'll have to wait until later in the week though.
     
  8. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    The old fix, given that the cannon pinion is solid with no dimple or such, was to run a hair through it before you mount it on the center arbor. I've done this on 2 watches. It works!
     
  9. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

    Apr 20, 2013
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    Dimple in end stone from wear? When turning a Watch over from DU to DD or vice versa I can sometimes hear a similar "tink". I Always thought that was due to the balance shifting pivot and travelling along its end shake. If there is a dimple in the end stone it could cause the balance to pop in and out of it when the lateral pressures on the staff shift from the spring forces during the arc of the balance. Do you have a difference in rate and/or amplitude between DU and DD?

    Regards
    Karl
     
  10. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Rob,

    I do believe you troubleshooted this. Do the hands turn very easily? Can you move the minute hand directly?

    If you adjust the tension on the cannon pinion, be sure to put it on a broach so you minimize the risk of breaking it. Would be good to ensure you have a replacement pinion available. I generally use light squeezes with end cutters and others use the staking set and pointed punch. This is one of the riskier adjustments because the pinion is generally quite hard.
     
  11. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    I was looking at it last night under the microscope while it ran and I noticed that the pallet fork pivot is quite worn and moving around a lot in the jewel. I suspect the noise is the fork moving enough that the safety dart is "pinging" on the roller. I would have to repivot the pallet fork to solve that problem.

    Which requires a lathe I don't yet have. (Soon I'll not be able to say that any longer. :D )

    To illustrate the noise, hold your index finger straight up and rigid. Now brush the palm of your other hand across the tip. Imagine what the sound would be if your index finger were a stiff metal rod that flexed and then returned to it's original position. "Tink" Now if your brushed your palm across your fingertip one way and immediately brushed it the other way the sound would be doubled. "Tink-tink"

    That's what I'm hearing.
     
  12. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    Yes, the hands are very easy to set. I can probably set the minute hand without the key if I felt like I could risk breaking the hand.

    Where to squeeze or dimple? Low down on the cannon next to the gear or mid-way up?
     
  13. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    If there is no obvious dimple or concave cut in the cannon pinion, roll the center wheel arbor (cannon pinion post) between two files to create a light knurl. I have seen recommendations to swage the center of the cannon pinion post. The problem is the wear; the condition is called "failure to carry".

    On later watches, you would make the adjustment on the cannon pinion about 1/2 way down where it is thinned down.
     
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  14. Tim Fitzgerald

    Tim Fitzgerald Registered User
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    I just had a similar problem with a Waltham #1857 18s kweywind and could move the hands with my finger. Putting three little burrs on the pinion took care of the problem. it was my first time doing this so I was a bit hesitant , its keeping good time for a P/W made in1869. 16010 bph

    20191015_144444_800x600.jpg 20191015_144549_800x600.jpg
     
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  15. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    Very nice. Your case is much prettier than my old beater. Which by the way isn't silverine but is nickle plated and the plating is worn badly.

    Character everywhere. Dirt and crud included. ;)
     
  16. Tim Fitzgerald

    Tim Fitzgerald Registered User
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    Thank's Rob the watch came in this coin silver case marked "Waltham" made 1869. I myself , come from the bring the watch back to it's original gleaming self school. The case & the movement came p sparkling.
     
  17. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    Took it apart and degreased everything just to be sure.

    There's no dimple in the cannon so I decided to double check that this is the issue before I did any sort of "permanent" fix. What I did was run a hair through the cannon and reinstalled it. (Hey, cat hair DOES have a use - who knew. ;) )

    The minute hand is much "stiffer" than it was. So much so that I wouldn't try to set the hand without the key now. Doing that would definitely bend or break the hand. I finished installing everything and wound it and set the time. We shall see what it does.
     
  18. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    An hour or so and it's still holding exact time. So the "failure to carry" (thanks Dewey for the term) is the problem.

    Here it is... Wait, is that CAT HAIR I see? ? ? Oh my...


    1873 BW Raymond movement.jpg 1873 BW Raymond dial.jpg 1873 BW Raymond caseback.jpg
     
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  19. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    You used your finger to turn the minute hand before this? First off: that shouldn't be possible with a properly fitted cannon pinion. Secondly, you'll leave grease and corrosion marks on the hands from doing so, not to mention most likely causing interference issues with the hands, dial and glass.

    I set wall clocks and long case clocks that way but it never occured to me to set anything with a setting mechanism by moving the hands manually. Why?

    Regards
    Karl
     
  20. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    I didn't say I DID, I said I probably could have if I'd wanted to risk breaking the hand(s).

    Still seems to be working, though it's lost a minute in 7 hours hanging on a peg on the wall.
     
  21. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    I see, my mistake.

    A minute in seven hours seems to be within range of regulation. Does the timing machine agree?
     
  22. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    It's all good karl.

    Approx 3 minutes time loss so far in almost 21 hours. At least she's a consistent old battleaxe. At this point I'm waiting to see if she'll run another couple of hours on the original wind. From the other thread about the Geneva stop, this one only seems to want to run for about 21-22 hours per wind stop-to-stop.
     
  23. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    See?
     
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  24. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    You sound like you need a cat.

    NAWCC forum special! Today only! Buy one, get one FREE!!!**




    **Offer limited to 5 per customer. Limited quantities, hurry before they're (hopefully) gone.

    cats.jpg
     
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  25. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    On a more serious note, it's run for 24 hours now and still ticking.

    I'm wondering if the failure to carry was worse than I thought. Hours worse.
     
  26. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Nah. I use one of my son's long hairs. Allows me to hold both ends by looping it through the CP and when pushed into place, the ends get cut and there's no lose ends in the movement.

    Plus, having had cats, I figure everything on my watchmakers bench would be on the floor!
     
  27. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    Sounds like you definitey need a cat. But hurry, only 5 left. Plus I'll even throw in a lifetime supply of hairballs if you take 3 or more. :D

    On that note; I took the old gal out for a walk today. She's holding time reasonably well considering how abused she's been. Not RR time, but all things considered, I'm not complaining.

    I'll put it back into the silk bag and into the drawer. As time allows I'll continue to work on it to fully restore it to the best level of workmanship I can. In the meantime, I'll take it out and enjoy carrying it knowing I have a watch in my pocket that's nearly 100 years older than I am.
     
  28. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    I think the Greyhound might like a cat. Not sure the feeling would be mutual....
     

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