Straight graining (sun ray?) pattern on ratchet and crown wheels

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by karlmansson, Jul 8, 2016.

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  1. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

    Apr 20, 2013
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    Hello everybody!

    I've had to do some rust removal in a movement recently. Unfortunately this included straight grained Surfaces that I'm not really sure how to refinish. I can do black polishing and straight graining of bridges and such but snailing is out of my reach due to lack of attachments for my lathe (and experience...). The radial straight graining found on some ratchet and Crown Wheels seemed plausible though. This movement had such a finish.

    I tried by using two T-rests on my lathe, centering the Wheel on a wax chuck and then making strokes with a buff stick across the face of the Wheel with the T-rests as support. I then indexed the Wheel with the indexing disc on my headstock pulley. The finish turned out alright but far from perfect. I've tried finding better ways to do this but I've only managed to find lots of information on snailing Wheels, which is of course also interesting.

    Any hints? Should I use something other than a buff stick? What radius shoulthe edge in Contact with the work have? (I now used a triangular one and only used the edge). Should I index the Wheel or simly rotate by hand in small increments, trying to hold it as still as possible?

    I'm starting to Think that the "straight" graining seen on many of these Wheels is actually the result from "snailing" with a very large disc and speed settings making the grinding pattern almost radial. The center of this Wheel is recessed so it's impossible to tell is there is a curve to the pattern Close to the center.

    All help appreciated!

    Best regards
    Karl
     
  2. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    #2 karlmansson, Jul 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
    Some photos from my latest attempt.
    image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
     
  3. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    [video]https://youtu.be/ZQGMD9d66zw[/video]

    Video of the result
     
  4. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Perkins, Perkins, Perkins.

    Nice grey finish. Get perfection with zinc or brass lapping plate and Tetrabore. Have to make the zinc plate by melting zinc in can (tuna works) and then facing in the lathe.
     
  5. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    I'd love to get Perkins books but I can't afford them at the moment. Where is it that I can find them again?

    Thank you! I do have a zinc block, a sacrificial anode for maritime use that I filed flat. I use it with diamantine or autosol. Works great! In this instance, since I was going to apply a coarser finish than the matte, grey I didn't bother refining it further.
     
  6. sharukh

    sharukh Registered User
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    Look on youtube for a video by Steffen Pahlow. He does it on the lathe with a milling attachment.

    Sharukh
     
  7. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    Thanks Sharukh but if it is this video you are referring to he only shows how to make a snailing finish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_S8oA9HdlY
     
  8. sharukh

    sharukh Registered User
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    Oops. I seem to have read your message in too much of a hurry. Obviously this is not what you were looking for. Off to check my copy of Perkins' book.

    Sharukh
     
  9. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Karl,

    They are sold by AWI and I think you can get them from Amazon. If there are mailing problems contact me privately. It does seem you need them for where you are going.
     
  10. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    I think I shall have to buy them one at a time, until the next pay check arrives. Saving up for my last year of med school :).

    In in which book is the finishing technique at hand discussed? And in the mean time, would someone who has Perkins book care to explain his method? Would appreciate it!

    Best regards
    Karl
     
  11. sharukh

    sharukh Registered User
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    Ah a fellow medic with inclinations towards watch repair. Best of luck with your final year. Triage is equally important in both fields of "repair".

    It's in Antique watch restoration, vol 1, chp 16. Too many pages for me to explain it with any sort of accuracy, plus the pictures are a great aid to understanding both the process as well as the actual finish. The Perkins books are worth every krona (I confess, I looked that up).

    Sharukh.
     
  12. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    Thank you! What field are you in?
    I think our systems may differ somewhat. I'm doing geriatrics, psychology, neurology, anesthesiology, ob/gyn and paediatrics during my last year. That division differs even within Sweden.

    Alright, I'll put vol 1 first on the list then.

    I made another attempt at least! Made a new buff stick with 1000 grit paper and a much sharper edge. Then I turned the headstock by hand, more or less continuously and slowly. Here's a video: https://youtu.be/3JMLM1bYSLg
     
  13. sharukh

    sharukh Registered User
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    I studied medicine, basic surgery, ob/gyn, pediatrics, and a few more, many years ago. I practice Homeopathic medicine. Been doing it for over 25 years now.

    Sharukh
     
  14. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    I see! Is homeopathic medicine considered a medical speciality in India? Does it require a specialists license?

    On the original subject: I read that it can both be achieved in factories by a rotating brush wheel or by a bell polishing wheel. I'm wondering if two wheels could not be set up in relation to each other so that a straight grain could be achieved if the relative speeds are set up correctly... Sort of like how two epicycloid gears roll against each other and don't slide. Not the same thing obviously but just an examle of how two rotating motions can create a third, linear motion.
     
  15. sharukh

    sharukh Registered User
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    Yes.

    I have never done this myself, so I will let someone with more experience answer this.

    Sharukh.
     
  16. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Karl,

    Start with Archie's Watchmakers Lathe
     
  17. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    Thanks Dewey, does it deal with the techinique I'm asking about or is it just a good book to have around the shop?
     
  18. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Techinques for almost anything you can think of.
     
  19. Bohemian Bill

    Bohemian Bill Registered User
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    Hi Karl..I am also interested in restoring the Sunray pattern on winding & ratchet wheels with rust spots. I am not real clear on how you accomplish your first and second attempt to recreate the pattern. Did you use a sharp edge of a stone or burnisher to scratch the surface and then turn the wheel by a degree? I also did some research on the internet but the authors of the article seem to keep the technique to themselves. I seen several on the snail pattern using the lathe and the milling table attachment on the watchmakers lathe. I also don't have a copy of the Archie Perkin's book. Karl, Keep us inform of any interesting developments..Thanks Bill
     
  20. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    Hi Bill, I think that if you read this thread, my first entry in particular, you will get a pretty clear picture of how I did it.
     
  21. Bohemian Bill

    Bohemian Bill Registered User
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    Hi Karl..I have read in post #1 that you use a 1000 grit buff stick on two Tee rests on your watchmaker's lathe. My buff sticks are 10 inches long by 1 inch wide and 1/4 inch thick that I purchase from a supply house. My buff sticks corners are not very sharp. In my mind my buff sticks are too large for a pocket watch ratchet wheel and was wondering what you were using. Also I was wondering what you might have done something different on your second attempt. I have in the past made many sanding sticks by gluing automotive 3M emergy paper onto popsicle sticks. Thanks Bill.
     
  22. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    Since you mentioned stones and burnishers I assumed that you had not read my posts. The post with the video of the second attempt describes the difference between the two. For the first time I used a triangular buff stick (you can get them in different shapes and sizes) and indexed with the headstock of my lathe. For the second attempt I made my own buff stick that I shaped with a plane and files to a sharper edge and put some 1000 grit paper over. Then I turned the headstock in a continuous motion, very slowly by hand.

    But as I'm sure you will find, this has been posted earlier in this thread.
     
  23. Doug Skinner

    Doug Skinner Registered User
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    Can you show us some videos/pictures of how you did it?
     
  24. Robert Gordon

    Robert Gordon Registered User
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    #24 Robert Gordon, Dec 9, 2019 at 1:38 AM
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019 at 2:12 AM
    (Pssst!, karlmansson, you hit the nail on the head in post 14 with the word "factories". Scroll about 2/3 of the way down this page for a picture of a factory method: Dial Manufactory | Glashütte Original...a disc with brass bristles in a radial direction around the circumference. Since your project is much harder than a dial plate, you might investigate the BRM Flex-Hone®, Industrial Brushes, Wire Brushes website for a Flex-Hone that might do the job in a similar fashion to the flex of the brass bristles. Mum's the word so Glasshuette doesn't make that picture disappear!)
     
  25. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    Hey Doug!

    That video was made over Three years ago. I don't have any more footage from the event and I'm sorry to say I'm not set ut for such work at the moment. If I remember correctly I used a Wood stick cut to a knife edge and clad with fine Emery paper. That, paired with a file roller, in the watchmakers lathe gave me the results pictured. Just remember to only work when the lathe headstock is standing still or you'll get a spiral grain instead.

    Regards
    Karl
     
  26. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    What does "straight-graining" look like? Does it look like the pattern on the winding wheels of this Model '88 AWCO?

    DSC05488.JPG

    How does "straight-graining" compare to "sun-raying"? When I think of a sun ray pattern, I think of patterns like this one on a 14k IWC hunter in my collection.

    IMG_0844_edited.JPG
    :
     
  27. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    I did some jeweling on a rifle bolt a couple of decades ago. It was the standard repeating circle pattern that everyone calls "engine turning". As I recall I tried used a round wire brush (not a cup) in a drill press but that didn't work. I switched to a rubber tipped rod (like a pencil only it wasn't a pencil) and some valve lapping compound (ultra fine) for the abrasive. If I were to try to make the sun ray pattern, I'd probably use the edge of a something shaped like a cup brush set at 45* to the work surface. Mount whatever power unit you're using (Dremel?) with the brush in it to the cross slide (or some jig that will do the same thing), run it across the work surface, index the headstock and pull it back. Add lapping compound as required.

    The rubber "cup" could be an automotive "cup seal" mounted on the appropriate tooling for the power unit. (The cutoff wheel holder for a Dremel would work.) You could also try one of the emery wheels but I think they're too thick.
     

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