Starr & Marcus European Pocket Watch Jules Jurgensen Help with Identification

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Thomas Barr, Sep 9, 2019.

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Is this a Jules Jurgensen Movement ?

Poll closed Sep 23, 2019.
  1. Yes

    0 vote(s)
  2. No

    3 vote(s)
  1. Thomas Barr

    Thomas Barr Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 23, 2019
    First time post.... I need help to verify the movement of a pocket watch. It is private labeled as Starr & Marcus. I think it looks as if Jules Jurgensen manufactured the movement. Any insight on the maker of the movement and the type of movement it is would be very helpful. The movement size is 12s. One thing I did note on the movement which may not be seen from the photos. The pallet fork is extended past the fork to the escapement wheel, at the end there is a hoop, or circle that is approximately the same diameter as the escapement wheel. The upper gear and pivot of the escapement wheel are centered inside this hoop. I am not sure of the function of this hoop, and if it is strictly ornamental, or serves a purpose. Any help from the pocket watch collectors out there would be appreciated. My wheel house is more wrist watches, but now later in my collecting career I am beginning to see the fascination with the pocket watch. Thank you in advance for your help.

    170CE3E8-4640-4614-81F8-CA884AA4E256.jpeg 1AEB460A-1803-4571-9BE8-E579B11BE9B2.jpeg CBA09C17-E1D9-4489-8293-41D467E3398E.jpeg 09FB3EF3-643C-4681-9BA5-A381CF8FB958.jpeg B753AE36-8A82-44C4-942C-F263EAC645A8.jpeg EA6110D8-E5E9-4798-8AF8-83666EB62C8A.jpeg
    viclip likes this.
  2. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
    NAWCC Gold Member

    Jan 8, 2006
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    I am skeptical that your movement was made by Jules Jurgensen because I Jules Jurgensen probably did not actually "make" most of the movements it signed. Hence, your watch's movement might have been made by a JJ supplier even if it were identical to a movement JJ itself signed. The other reason I am skeptical is that I don't think JJ made (or at least signed) many movements with exposed winding wheels as in your movement.

    You mention your watch's "pallet fork is extended past the fork to the escapement wheel, at the end there is a hoop, or circle." I assume the hoop looks like the one shown below near the center of the photo.

    IMG_6351 - Copy (3).JPG

    If so, that might support your JJ-attribution theory. The photo shows the balance and lever in an unsigned watch in my collection that I attribute to JJ based on the design of the movement and the "JJ" painted on the back of the dial. You should look at the back of the dial of your watch to see if it has "JJ" on it.
  3. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 14, 2001
    Aerospace Engineer
    New Hampshire
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    Welcome to this board.

    You have a fine watch. The attachment to the lever is called a counterpoise. It was put there to poise or balance the pallet or lever about its pivots. It was seen at the time as useful feature for position adjustment. Later and correct theory is that this was not useful and reduced the speed f action of teh lever so it's went out of use.

    The watch is very fine as the tips of the escape wheel teeth show. In the NAWCC, we call this a recessed hub escape wheel. This is used it high grade Swiss watches and some high end American ones such as the better Keystone Howards, Waltham American grade and some Walth Maximus grade watches.

    Jurgensen used similar ebauches or rough movements, but as Ethan noted, did not make for private label, to my knowledge. They also used gold mounted cap jewels in the escape wheel and lever.
  4. Jerry Freedman

    Jerry Freedman Registered User
    NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Member

    Sep 16, 2000
    In the1870s Gallet made movements that are much like yours.

    Jerry Freedman

  5. Thomas Barr

    Thomas Barr Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 23, 2019
    That is great information. My balance and lever in my watch looks the same as in your unsigned watch. Very Helpful to know. Thank you.
  6. Thomas Barr

    Thomas Barr Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 23, 2019
    Thank you gentlemen. I will research this further with the great information I have received so far in this post. What a wonderful resource!

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