Standard Electric Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething Else?

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by popeye, Nov 23, 2014.

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  1. popeye

    popeye Registered User

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    #1 popeye, Nov 23, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
    I have a master clock and using for power a Switching AC/DC power adapter AC100-240v 50/60Hz 0.3A. The self winding does not push the wheel high enough to turn it. It clicks and pushes up but can not push enough to move.
    Is it the power source I am using? Should I wire it directly into wall outlet? Or is it something else stopping it from pushing to turn?
    Advice and information would be greatly appreciated!
    Thanks!
    Attaching some pictures-let me know if more pictures or information needed?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    The 0.3 amp wall wart you are trying to use is too weak. You should find a 24 VDC source with more "moxie." One thing you can do is to add a large 100 MFD or more capacitor to the output of the wall wart. The energy stored in the capacitor will provide more amps for a few milliseconds added to the wimp.

    Adjustment of the winding armature to the magnet cores is critical in addition to careful adjustment of the winding and check pawls.

    Don't even think of using 120 volt AC on the movement. All the smoke will come out of the magnet. :whistle:
     
  3. popeye

    popeye Registered User

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    #3 popeye, Nov 23, 2014
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  4. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #4 eskmill, Nov 23, 2014
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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    Your alternate AC-DC wall wart (1.5 Ampere 15,16,17,18,19,20 volt output) should have adequate capacity to operate the winding mechanism....

    But, I have to ask you if you are certain the the movement was made for 24 volts and not 36 or 48 volts although other than 12 or 24 is the most common voltage needed for the SET master movement. In fact, they are said to have been factor tested to operate reliably at 48 volts.

    As I replied earlier, "Adjustment of the winding armature to the magnet cores is critical in addition to careful adjustment of the winding and check pawls."

    Take a good look at the position of the winding pawl relative to the ratchet. It must not address two teeth. Optimally just a little more than one single tooth. Adjust the check pawl to set the drive pawl as well as the winding lever backstop.

    If the movement has been "monkey'd with" or disassembled for clean and repair, then it is virtually certain the the adjustment of the pawls and the armature to core clearance is uncertain.

    I recently made up one for another member. It had the same symptom as you have:
    not enough force to get one tooth of the ratchet. The armature did not have enough clearance to the magnet cores. I was forced to file the movement plate magnet mounting screw holes a little to the left to gain more clearance to let the armature give the winding lever more travel. I do not know where the movement came from and it was likely made up from scraps.

    The SET master movement is well made but it depends on having the magnet screws and especially the pawl and back stop bracket screws really tight and they are wont to slip if not securely tightened but don't overdo; remember the plates are just brass.

    I have added a diagram showing where adjustments are made. They are critical that the wind pawl shows it has addressed about a half of a tooth when the check pawl is holding against the mainspring. The red screws must be tight
     

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  5. popeye

    popeye Registered User

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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    Perfect will work on that later. Very nicely addresses, thanks!
     
  6. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    What is the DC resistance of the coil?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  7. popeye

    popeye Registered User

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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    Sorry, have no idea. Is there an easy way to find that information?
     
  8. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    Find someone with a meter. Anyone that fiddles with
    electronics will have one. Most electricians will have
    one as well.
    If we know the resistance, we'd know what the current
    that was needed, at 24V.

    Technically, resistance is a DC term. When using AC, it
    is impedance but the circuit could be purely resistive.
    You have a coil so it would have an impedance made
    of the inductance of the coil and the resistance of
    the wire.
    If that confuses you, you can ignore it.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  9. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #9 eskmill, Nov 25, 2014
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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    The DC resistance of the winding electromagnets varies with the age of the SET movements and the voltage the coils were wound for.

    Some of the earliest were designed to operate on odd battery systems, generally 24 volts but 12 volts and lower are not uncommon. Often the wire gauge on the coils is stamped on the fiber bobbin ends. I have one marked 28 gauge and another marked 32 gauge (60 Ohms) and a very old one with green silk insulated wire and it measures ten ohms. I have seen SET battery boxes that have space for three #6 dry cells.

    I suspect the example at issue is likely designed to operate on 18 to 24 volts as Popeye has indicated that the magnets try to move the winding pawl. For all that we know, the spring is fully wound and the spring end studs are butting. :cyclops:

    There are many causes of wear and adjustment that result in the same symptom: "won't wind".

    Popeye's initial try with the tiny low capacity might have worked provided the winding lever pivots aren't too loose and the correct mainspring is installed. The mainspring, is simply a small helical type wrapped around the center arbor with enough length and force to operate the movement for about 56 minutes. :eek:
     
  10. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    My point was that the first wall wort would only be able to
    drive an 80 ohm coil. anything less than that would exceed the
    drive.
    It is ampere-turns that determines the strength of the pull.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  11. popeye

    popeye Registered User

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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    I have a meter. Where do I connect the twp points to measure the current?
    Thanks.
     
  12. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    The meter may not respond quick enough to measure the current
    It is better to just measure the resistance and calculate the current.
    Ohms should only be measured with the power disconnected or
    it may damage the meter.
    You just disconnect your supply and then measure across the coil windings,
    at a convenient point. I believe from Les' picture, one lead
    on the frame and one on the screw terminal to the left of the coil
    ( but could be wrong ).
    What type of meter do you have and what scales does it have?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  13. popeye

    popeye Registered User

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    #13 popeye, Nov 30, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
    Re: Standard Electric Time Cc-Self WInding Master Clock Power Question or SOmething E

    Thanks for all responses. I am pretty sure there is enough voltage to move the winding arbor. Seems that the top pawl jams. Hear a muted clicking and when that happens I pick up the pawl with screw driver and releases it. Seems like it jams in the tooth. I did tighten the red top screw. Looks like there is a pin to hold the part in place as well.That seems to be the problem. Is there a fix to that? Love the clock and would love to get it working.

    PS-the bottom pawl-seems like there is play up and down with the arm. Is there away to raise the arm up and keep it up so will move the gear higher with no play?
    Is that the problem?

    One last observation-the arbor for minute/hour moves in and out-would the movement pushing in with hour or minute hand effect the movements of the pawl?
     

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