ST2 difficulty setting the beat

[bikerclockguy]

I have a Seth Thomas no 2 with the no 77 movement, and this thing is really kicking my tail. Bought it at an estate auction a couple of years ago, went through the movement and replaced the weight cable with nylon cord as suggested by others here, hung it up(I don’t have a test stand that will handle a big weight like that), couldn’t get it going, and gave up. As I was eating dinner the other night, it got to bugging me, so I decided to take another crack at it. I checked my hanging job first, and discovered I was a few degrees off level, so I corrected that first and then went about trying get it in beat. People have said they are finicky, but I think that’s a gross understatement. I know beat setting basics, but I have some questions, and could use some pointers/advice that relate to this particular movement. My verge is the style in the pic but my crutch rod is nice and straight, not mangled like that one. I read a couple of threads on this, and there were mentions of ”bending the crutch rod”. I know that’s the method for many different types of clocks, and I’ve done that on every mantel clock movement I’ve built. The crutch rod on these is considerably thicker though, for one thing. Also, from looking at mine, and the one in the pic, it looks to me like the crutch rod is a friction/slip fit on the arbor. I’ve moved it in both directions(or at least I thought I did)enough to change the beat, on the first attempt a couple of years ago, and over this weekend as well. I did pull the movement out to examine the crutch before I started on Saturday, because I worked with it quite a bit the last time, and I was worried it might look like the one in the pic. It looked straight and true though, which also made me think it was a friction fit. I’ve been maddeningly close to getting it in beat, and it’s not far off now, but it’s no cigar. The only time I’ve had a perfectly even, measured beat, was when I got it so far off that it was backwards, and started on the tock instead of the tic. I‘m at the point now where the entry and exit are evenly timed, but the tock(exit?)sounds weak and faint compared to the tick. Thanks in advanc!

 

[Willie X]

A close-up video of your clock's escapement running, as it normally runs, will help more than anything. Photos of clocks, other than your clock, is counter productive.

Do you know if your movement is a repo?

How much pendulum swing?

Is the weight about 6#s?

All this may have already been covered. If so, maybe your split thread could be pieced back together?

Willie X

 

[bikerclockguy]

A close-up video of your clock's escapement running, as it normally runs, will help more than anything. Photos of clocks, other than your clock, is counter productive.

Do you know if your movement is a repo?

How much pendulum swing?

Is the weight about 6#s?

All this may have already been covered. If so, maybe your split thread could be pieced back together?

Willie X

Everything looks to be original, and in good condition. I haven’t weighed the weight, but yeah, from the heft it feels like about 6 lbs. pendulum swing has varied with crutch adjustment, but at the moment, I think it’s traveling within the beat scale. I can try to take a video tomorrow afternoon. I‘m not sure I’ll be able to get the action of the verge and escape wheel, as I can barely see it, but if I can get one that looks useful, I’ll definitely post it.

 

[Dick Feldman]

The ST #2 was produced from the 1860's to about 1950 in many different forms.
Check this link: Antique Clocks Guy: We bring antique clocks collectors and buyers together. Always the highest quality antique clocks available.
The age of your clock may be 160 years old or 70+ or somewhere in between those numbers. Many were reproductions and some were poor reproductions. Some could be called blatant fakes.
So far, the information you have given is insufficient.
Not being able to maintain beat may only be a symptom of something serious rather than being the root problem. The clock may simply be a poor reproduction and not capable of running, much less maintaining beat. The first and foremost trouble shooting action should be to make sure there is sufficient power to the escapement. The escapement (beat) cannot hope to operate without sufficient power. Inability or unwillingness to recognize wear is a strong possibility. Any attempt at setting the beat may be futile.
Very seldom are working clocks offered for sale and the most common fault is low power due to wear. If a simple fix was needed, the previous owner/s would likely have solved the problem and it would be running on his/her wall.
That is how I feel,
Dick

 

[bikerclockguy]

The previous owner was unable to take it with her into the afterlife.

 

[bkerr]

Good Morning,
I have had some issues with the original one I own as well. It can be very fussy getting in beat, once there no problem. I would not go by a level to be the end all.

You might try this. Leave it in the case. Take the hands and dial off, put it on the wall and set a mark both left and right as a base line. make small adjustments until it comes into beat. You should be able to hear it when it is right. With the dial off you can also see the front plate as well as the escape wheel checking for issues.

Now if that does not work then you have more issues to address. Good luck!

 

[Dick Feldman]

So far, the information you have given is insufficient.

The previous owner was unable to take it with her into the afterlife.

See post #4
D

 

[Kevin W.]

My seth thomas does not have a friction fit verge, so perhaps this one is a repro. At least thats what i remember the last time i had the movement on the bench.

 

[Dave T]

A close-up video of your clock's escapement running, as it normally runs, will help more than anything. Photos of clocks, other than your clock, is counter productive.

And, some good photos of the movement might help too.
Then, you could probably get some good information to help you.

 

[Richard.W]

IMHO, the trapezoidal #77 movement should be easier to bring to life than the more popular #61. Besides bushing wear, impulse face polishing and the other usual suspects", here's a suggested list...
- The iron frame must be securely fastened to the back board.
- The back board must be securely fastened to the balance of the case.
- The movement needs to be firmly mounted in the iron frame.
- Replace the suspension spring
- The crutch should have minimal clearance in the pendulum wear plate.
- Check the pendulum to have a snug fit in the bob.

Hope this help.

 

[bruce linde]

random responses, in no particular order:

- it was only after a careful re-read that i realized the crutch pictured is not the one from your clock... confusing and not very helpful

- these were NOT self-adjusting crutches.... but the verge might not be attached correctly to the arbor. when you're holding the movement in your hand and applying pressure with a finger to the great wheel as you move the crutch back and forth, you can do a visual check to see if the crutch is passing through the horizontal center of the movement as it ticks. if not, you might have a more serious problem.... but far easier to bend these thicker crutches with the movement NOT installed.

- a few degrees off.... except that the odds of a 100+ year old ST2 case being perfectly true are low. you want to get the clock how you want it on the wall... i.e., balancing slightly-off on two sides and splitting the difference... and then secure the case to the wall. then, put the movement back in the case and without hands and dial see if it's in beat or not. if it ticks faster to the left, you want to CAREFULLY brace (BUT NOT PUSH) your finger on the top LEFT of the crutch... and try to push the bottom of the crutch SLIGHTLY to the left... i.e., the faster tick direction. the trick is to NOT SNAP THE BACK CRUTCH PIVOT!!!!!!!! yes, it's harder with the thicker/fatter crutches.... which is why you initialy want to get it as close as you can with just the movement in your hand, not installed, where you can use smooth-jawed pliers to try and bend the crutch. again, only MINIMAL bending should be required

all of that said.... in beat should be a relatively straightforward procedure.... UNLESS

- the verge alignment on the arbor has been mucked with

OR

- the crutch is actually slipping on the arbor... in which case loctite is your friend

OR

- the escape wheel and/or verge pivot holes are worn and need bushing

OR

- you have a bent escape wheel or verge pivot

make sure you are not confusing in-beat with 'won't stay in beat because it needs some servicing.

the way to check the above issues is:

1. visual inspection of pivots and pivot holes
2. take one plate and put on pivot in the matching pivot hole and see if the tilt in every single direction is the same... if you have a worn pivot hole, you'll see more tilt. you need to build familiarity and get a good feel for what is the appropriate amount of tilt for every given arbor
3. put JUST the escape wheel inbetween the plates and spin it... it should go for a long time and come to a gradual stop. if it stops more abruptly, the pivot hole might need to be bushed, or the pivot cleaned, or end shake adjusted, etc.
4. do the same for the verge... you can't spin it 360 degrees, but you get set it rocking and judge how friction-free it is or isn't

but really, you need to post large, clear, well-lit photos of your movement, from all sides... and video of the escapement in action. videos should be AT LEAST 30 seconds long and uploaded to youtube for procesing before copying and pasting video urls into posts here on the message board.

ST2's are easy to work with, and particualrly easy to remove from and put back into the case... you should have a test stand that will allow closer visual inspection and the photos and videos mentioned above.

 

[bikerclockguy]

random responses, in no particular order:

- it was only after a careful re-read that i realized the crutch pictured is not the one from your clock... confusing and not very helpful

- these were NOT self-adjusting crutches.... but the verge might not be attached correctly to the arbor. when you're holding the movement in your hand and applying pressure with a finger to the great wheel as you move the crutch back and forth, you can do a visual check to see if the crutch is passing through the horizontal center of the movement as it ticks. if not, you might have a more serious problem.... but far easier to bend these thicker crutches with the movement NOT installed.

- a few degrees off.... except that the odds of a 100+ year old ST2 case being perfectly true are low. you want to get the clock how you want it on the wall... i.e., balancing slightly-off on two sides and splitting the difference... and then secure the case to the wall. then, put the movement back in the case and without hands and dial see if it's in beat or not. if it ticks faster to the left, you want to CAREFULLY brace (BUT NOT PUSH) your finger on the top LEFT of the crutch... and try to push the bottom of the crutch SLIGHTLY to the left... i.e., the faster tick direction. the trick is to NOT SNAP THE BACK CRUTCH PIVOT!!!!!!!! yes, it's harder with the thicker/fatter crutches.... which is why you initialy want to get it as close as you can with just the movement in your hand, not installed, where you can use smooth-jawed pliers to try and bend the crutch. again, only MINIMAL bending should be required

all of that said.... in beat should be a relatively straightforward procedure.... UNLESS

- the verge alignment on the arbor has been mucked with

OR

- the crutch is actually slipping on the arbor... in which case loctite is your friend

OR

- the escape wheel and/or verge pivot holes are worn and need bushing

OR

- you have a bent escape wheel or verge pivot

make sure you are not confusing in-beat with 'won't stay in beat because it needs some servicing.

the way to check the above issues is:

1. visual inspection of pivots and pivot holes
2. take one plate and put on pivot in the matching pivot hole and see if the tilt in every single direction is the same... if you have a worn pivot hole, you'll see more tilt. you need to build familiarity and get a good feel for what is the appropriate amount of tilt for every given arbor
3. put JUST the escape wheel inbetween the plates and spin it... it should go for a long time and come to a gradual stop. if it stops more abruptly, the pivot hole might need to be bushed, or the pivot cleaned, or end shake adjusted, etc.
4. do the same for the verge... you can't spin it 360 degrees, but you get set it rocking and judge how friction-free it is or isn't

but really, you need to post large, clear, well-lit photos of your movement, from all sides... and video of the escapement in action. videos should be AT LEAST 30 seconds long and uploaded to youtube for procesing before copying and pasting video urls into posts here on the message board.

ST2's are easy to work with, and particualrly easy to remove from and put back into the case... you should have a test stand that will allow closer visual inspection and the photos and videos mentioned above.

I went through the movement when I got it. It had some wear, but it was very slight. I usually go through 5 grades of the emery buffs when polishing pivots on my lathe, but with these it just took a few turns with the #5 stick and then the #6 made them shine like chrome. I inspected all of the pivot holes with a jeweler’s loupe, as I always do, and there weren’t any that were even noticeably out-of-round. I feel confident the train is in good condition, and I think my problem lies elsewhere. I’ve never worked with this style verge, and I’ve always been able to see what I was doing, rather than going by feel. I’m going to try once more this evening, using some of these tips and techniques. I’m thinking now that maybe I was going too far with my incremental adjustments, so I’m going to dial that down to the micro level and see if I have better luck. I will keep everyone posted, and if I need further help, I’ll post the best pics and video I can.

 

[bruce linde]

IMHO, the trapezoidal #77 movement should be easier to bring to life than the more popular #61.

why? they're essentially the same, except that the front verge height is adjustable on the 61, but not the 77.

i've always thought the 61s were easier to work with as they were easier to disassemble, and offered a tad more flexibility with worn escape wheel teeth....

 

[bruce linde]

I went through the movement when I got it. It had some wear, but it was very slight. I usually go through 5 grades of the emery buffs when polishing pivots on my lathe, but with these it just took a few turns with the #5 stick and then the #6 made them shine like chrome. I inspected all of the pivot holes with a jeweler’s loupe, as I always do, and there weren’t any that were even noticeably out-of-round. I feel confident the train is in good condition, and I think my problem lies elsewhere. I’ve never worked with this style verge, and I’ve always been able to see what I was doing, rather than going by feel. I’m going to try once more this evening, using some of these tips and techniques. I’m thinking now that maybe I was going too far with my incremental adjustments, so I’m going to dial that down to the micro level and see if I have better luck. I will keep everyone posted, and if I need further help, I’ll post the best pics and video I can.

not trying to beat anyone up... but:

- 'shine like chrome'.... did you look at the pivots under a microscope? i'm sure they're good enough, but if you're interested david labounty has an article on his website where they put 'shine like chrome' pivots under an electron microscope and yikes. interesting viewing.

- 'noticeably out of round'.... did you check with calipers? check the tilt with the arbor and pivot in place?

- 'feel confident the train is in good condition'... did you check each gear/arbor for 'free-spin-y-ness' individually, and then with adjacent arbors? reassemble everything EXCEPT the verge and see how light a touch on the great wheel it would take to make the escape wheel spin feely?

- did you polish the verge pallet faces? i use 4000 paper to dress them up a bit....


oh... and what does 'it had some wear' mean? pivots? pivot holes? escape wheel teeth? did you leave things as is or do anything specific to address the unspecified wear?

 

[Willie X]

The 'screwed permanetely to the wall', adjusting the beat with the case in that totally fixed position, is definitely the best way to go. A round slotted wire bender is good for most of these clocks. You can pass it through the movement to hold or bend the crutch wire.

If you are having trouble doing this, just center the crutch action with the movement in your hand and put it in the clock, what bruce just said. Except leave the clock unfastened at the bottom. Now, carefully slide the bottom of the case, left or right until the beat is even. Put a pencil mark on the wall, near the bottom of one of the sides. Lift the bottom of the clock away from the wall about 1" and place a small piece of blue tack between the bottom of the clock and the wall, one side only. Push the case into the blue tack, in aglinement with your pencil mark, that's it, you're done.

If it won't run, it has something wrong with it.

AFAIK, you never answered about the weight? about the overswing? or the pendulum amplitude? All key factors on any clock.

Over and out, Willie X

 

[bruce linde]

A round slotted wire bender is good for most of these clocks. You can pass it through the movement to hold or bend the crutch wire.

are you seriously suggesting using an appropriate tool for the job? (he said, in an outraged tone of disbelief, attempting to hide his chagrin at not having thought of this method previously)

 

[bikerclockguy]

Well guys, I was about to brag and say I had it, and just when my video finished uploading, it quit running. This is the closest I’ve been yet, and I think the problem was that I was going too far with my crutch adjustment. What do you think, maybe just a couple mm to the right? Here is a link to the video. Sorry the lighting isn’t better.

 

[bruce linde]

that is not even close to being in beat.... the spacing between the ticks and ticks has to be dead even. the bottom of the crutch needs to be bent to the right.

that said, we need to see what's going on, not just hear it... especially the verge/pallets interacting with the escape wheel... maybe you could put some light on it and shoot another video?

 

[Tim Orr]

Good evening, Guy!

l don't know about anyone else, but to me, this sounds like it's MILES out of beat. Amplitude looks OK to me.

Seeing that Bruce was posting as I was typing, I agree with him. Bend to right. Or just try moving the case and pin it down with blue-tac, as Willie suggested.

Best regards!

Tim Orr

 

[bikerclockguy]

not trying to beat anyone up... but:

- 'shine like chrome'.... did you look at the pivots under a microscope? i'm sure they're good enough, but if you're interested david labounty has an article on his website where they put 'shine like chrome' pivots under an electron microscope and yikes. interesting viewing.

- 'noticeably out of round'.... did you check with calipers? check the tilt with the arbor and pivot in place?

- 'feel confident the train is in good condition'... did you check each gear/arbor for 'free-spin-y-ness' individually, and then with adjacent arbors? reassemble everything EXCEPT the verge and see how light a touch on the great wheel it would take to make the escape wheel spin feely?

- did you polish the verge pallet faces? i use 4000 paper to dress them up a bit....


oh... and what does 'it had some wear' mean? pivots? pivot holes? escape wheel teeth? did you leave things as is or do anything specific to address the unspecified wear?

Did the shake and spin test, all good there. I’m not at all surprised with the microscope findings, and I’m sure actual chrome looks like the moon under an electron microscope, so I stand by that statement. If it took a micrometer to detect an out of round pivot hole, I would say we have passed the threshold for the definition of “visibly”.

 

[bikerclockguy]

This is better

 

[bikerclockguy]

I think I finally have it. It’s late and I‘m tired, but I will post another video tomorrow evening. The swing amplitude is much smaller now, 2” or less, in an even curve across the bottom. The beat is even and measured, and it’s a crisp sound with no extra harmonics. The main thing that was screwing me up were the methods I was using to adjust the crutch, including a couple mentioned here. I stumbled upon the method that worked best for me when I decided to double check what Bruce said about the crutch passing through the center of the movement on the swing. I slid the pin out and was working the crutch back and forth, when it hit me that I could get my fingers in there to the back side of the movement. I hooked the pendulum back up, determined which way the crutch needed to be adjusted, and then braced the crutch at the top with a couple of fingers and pulling against them to make the adjustment. I found it to be much easier to control that way, and it just took a couple of adjustments to get it right(I think). I realize this won’t be a viable option for everyone, but I have smaller than average hands, and it worked well for me. Thanks to everyone for the help and suggestions, and I’ll be back tomorrow evening with what I hope will be the wrap-up video.

 

[bruce linde]

a million times better… I'm hearing an extra little snick in there that tells me there's a little too much slop in the crutch slot. I bet if you watch it carefully you will see the crunch rod that sticks through it smacking back-and-forth. you want it sloppy, just not too sloppy.

 

[bikerclockguy]

a million times better… I'm hearing an extra little snick in there that tells me there's a little too much slop in the crutch slot. I bet if you watch it carefully you will see the crunch rod that sticks through it smacking back-and-forth. you want it sloppy, just not too sloppy.

My crutch has a pin on the end that goes through a slot in the pendulum, rather than a loop type crutch. Not sure what you could do with that?

 

[bruce linde]

you can try closing the slot a tad... but we can't see what you're seeing without video of the pin in the slot as the things is running.

i've peened 'em, i've put them in a vise, and i've also simply replaced worn crutch plates with new ones from timesavers.

 

[bikerclockguy]

you can try closing the slot a tad... but we can't see what you're seeing without video of the pin in the slot as the things is running.

i've peened 'em, i've put them in a vise, and i've also simply replaced worn crutch plates with new ones from timesavers.

Peening the pin was a thought I had myself, and I have a small gunsmith hammer with a brass head that would probably work well for that. On the other hand, I might screw it up too, and I don’t have an unpeener, so I pretty much decided against that. Also, I’m not sure about the extra noise you were hearing. I’m hard of hearing myself, and have to use that beat amplifier. I may make another video tonight, and if I do, I’ll make it without the amp, as the pickup on that is really sensitive and picks up a lot of static and background noise. When it was badly out of beat, the amp picked up the extra harmonics and I could hear them, but if they are still there, I’m not hearing them(which is quite possible)

 

[Richard.W]

why? they're essentially the same, except that the front verge height is adjustable on the 61, but not the 77.

I've always thought the 61s were easier to work with as they were easier to disassemble, and offered a tad more flexibility with worn escape wheel teeth....

Because I highly suspect that one of the root issues in the OP's beat questions lies in impulse face quality or pallet engagement. So, 1) the 77 front plate has the inspection holes for pallet depth-ing, and 2) unlike the 61, the verge can be pulled from a 77 without movement disassembly.

But you're right, there's a lot of good in the 61's frontal verge cock access.

 

[bruce linde]

another thought… You should take calibers and measure the crutch pin along its entire length to make sure it’s consistent, and definitely measure the crutch slot over the entire length… I predict you will find a worn area where the pin normally rides. You can bend the end of the crutch rod slightly so that the pin hits a narrower spot on the crutch plate, or you can try flipping the clutch plate upside down if the ride point is not dead center.

also, in your video, as the pendulum swings to the left it goes ‘tick TICK’… the pattern is

TICK tickTICK TICK tickTICK TICK tickTICK

The softer little tick is the sound of the crutch pin smacking against the sides of the crutch slot

 

[bikerclockguy]

another thought… You should take calibers and measure the crutch pin along its entire length to make sure it’s consistent, and definitely measure the crutch slot over the entire length… I predict you will find a worn area where the pin normally rides. You can bend the end of the crutch rod slightly so that the pin hits a narrower spot on the crutch plate, or you can try flipping the clutch plate upside down if the ride point is not dead center.

also, in your video, as the pendulum swings to the left it goes ‘tick TICK’… the pattern is

TICK tickTICK TICK tickTICK TICK tickTICK

The softer little tick is the sound of the crutch pin smacking against the sides of the crutch slot

I’ve made some adjustments since that video, and I think it’s close now. Not perfect yet, as it stopped some time during the night, but when I knocked off I needed a break. Back with more info this evening

 

[S_Owsley]

I haven't read all the posts and responses in great detail and CTRL-F isn't working for me, but did you apply a dab of oil to each impulse face of the verge?

 

[bruce linde]

2) unlike the 61, the verge can be pulled from a 77 without movement disassembly.

all you have to do to remove the verge from a 61 is unscrew the front adjustable verge arbor support piece... not only do you not have to disassemble the entire movement, but disassembling and reassembling a 61 movement takes like 10 seconds… Not exactly the most complicated movement, and in fact the one I learned on. I can do them in my sleep .

If you mark the position prior to doing this, you can put it back where it was. I always found the 77's harder to work with because you could not adjust the position of the verge to the escape wheel.

 

[bikerclockguy]

Had to put this thing on hold for a couple of days to get some other stuff done. I’m getting back on it this morning, and nothing new to report, but I do have a question. I noticed when I had the movement out that the suspension spring hanger is mounted off-center to the left. Is this normal? Also, unrelated to the repair, but I noticed there is a 1 40 stamped into the front plate on the left side. Does that denote a production date of January 1940?

 

[shutterbug]

It looks original, so I wouldn't worry about it. It won't affect anything.

 

[gvasale]

A drop of heavy oil will.quiet down the rattle on the crutch pin.

 

[Richard.W]

I noticed when I had the movement out that the suspension spring hanger is mounted off-center to the left. Is this normal? Also, unrelated to the repair, but I noticed there is a 1 40 stamped into the front plate on the left side. Does that denote a production date of January 1940?

The offset is normal and all of mine (ST, re-issue and 3rd party) have it. One advantage is it gives extra clearance to install the wedge pin for the top mounting of the suspension spring.

I highly doubt ST cast their own iron frames. That's too dirty of a job to allow inside a clock factory. They proabably ordered batches from a local foundry and in those situations the foundry is allowed to cast-in their own numbers. While it could be a date, it could just as well be a casting core, batch or requisition number used within the foundry.

 

[bikerclockguy]

Well, at long last, I’m there or nearly there, and I need some more experienced ears and opinions. Sorry about the quality of the video, particularly the EW section, but the sound is the main thing here. Do I have it in beat, and that extra little tick is the crutch pin, or is it just barely out and I need to move the crutch a hair more to the right. I’m going to order a new crutch pin slot from Timesavers in any case, but want to put it back together in the meantime. Thanks to everyone for their patience and some very helpful advice. I studied RC’s sticky in the Hints and How-To’s section last night too, and I now have a much better understanding of deadbeat escapements.

 

[bikerclockguy]

Update: I walked away and left it alone for an hour. When I came back and checked it again, the extra noise was gone, and the beat is good. I guess I didn’t give th pendulum enough time to settle down all the way before I made that last post. Thanks again everyone!

 

[bikerclockguy]

I always found the 77's harder to work with because you could not adjust the position of the verge to the escape wheel.

I’m curious about that comment. On mine, the arbor for the verge and crutch goes through a little bracket on the rear plate. The screw holes for the bracket are slotted, so you can move at least that end of it up and down a few degrees. I marked mine before disassembling the movement for cleaning, because I was worried about screwing up the verge depth. If that’s not for verge depth adjustment, why are the screw holes in the bracket slotted?

 

[bruce linde]

I’m curious about that comment. On mine, the arbor for the verge and crutch goes through a little bracket on the rear plate. The screw holes for the bracket are slotted, so you can move at least that end of it up and down a few degrees. I marked mine before disassembling the movement for cleaning, because I was worried about screwing up the verge depth. If that’s not for verge depth adjustment, why are the screw holes in the bracket slotted?

as i remember, the back cocks / verge bridges on the 77 movements were held in place with a screw and riveted in a fixed position.

even if we assume (since there are no photos provided) that yours is original (since the ST2 was perhaps the most counterfeited clock ever), who's to say someone didn't remove the rivet and file out the slots to provide some adjustability?

either way, my comment stands: it's a hell of lot easier to make minor adjustments to a 61 movement (with dial off) while the clock is running, as you can loosen the front cock screw just enough to allow some movement/adjustment while watching the interaction of the escape wheel teeth and verge. even if yours is adjustable... no way to adjust when the movement is attached to the bracket and the clock is running, as you can't see or reach the back.

and... the 61 is adjustable both in front and in back... which means you can absolutely adjust as needed.

so... 61 is adjustable from front and back, and while the clock is running. (your) 77 might be adjustable from the back, but you can't adjust while running.

next time you have your movement apart, take lots of photos from all angles and re-visit this thread..... i would be curious to see what ST logo is (or isn't) on the front plate, and where. i would be interested in seeing the back cock/bracket and slots... as well as a side view showing alignment of verge to escape wheel (perfect? tilted slighted forward or back? hmmm)

 

[bikerclockguy]

as i remember, the back cocks / verge bridges on the 77 movements were held in place with a screw and riveted in a fixed position.

even if we assume (since there are no photos provided) that yours is original (since the ST2 was perhaps the most counterfeited clock ever), who's to say someone didn't remove the rivet and file out the slots to provide some adjustability?

either way, my comment stands: it's a hell of lot easier to make minor adjustments to a 61 movement (with dial off) while the clock is running, as you can loosen the front cock screw just enough to allow some movement/adjustment while watching the interaction of the escape wheel teeth and verge. even if yours is adjustable... no way to adjust when the movement is attached to the bracket and the clock is running, as you can't see or reach the back.

and... the 61 is adjustable both in front and in back... which means you can absolutely adjust as needed.

so... 61 is adjustable from front and back, and while the clock is running. (your) 77 might be adjustable from the back, but you can't adjust while running.

next time you have your movement apart, take lots of photos from all angles and re-visit this thread..... i would be curious to see what ST logo is (or isn't) on the front plate, and where. i would be interested in seeing the back cock/bracket and slots... as well as a side view showing alignment of verge to escape wheel (perfect? tilted slighted forward or back? hmmm)

I did some digging, and found my original post when I first bought the clock. The consensus was that it “looked legit“ but no way to know for certain without shots of the movement, front and back. I don’t have pics of the front, as we know, but I did snap a pic back then of the label on the back of the case, and the instructions were for no 68 and 77 movements. According to this site https://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelated/SiteGraphics/RefGraphics/ST2-IDGuide.pdf there are 2 possible narrow windows of production for my clock(I‘m at my girlfriend’s house and can’t measure the case height to eliminate one of them at the moment)1874-1879 or 1922-1929. I’m wondering if I might have a #68 movement. If so, I hope they are not pieces of junk; there is very little information about them online. All of the 77s I found pictures of were 77A, and they all had the riveted bracket. I guess there were several variants of the 77, including a just plain 77, but for as popular as these clocks are, there‘s surprisingly little information available about them. I’m on a mission now, though. I’m going to measure the case in the morning and start digging deep to find out exactly what I have here.

 

[bruce linde]

the ST2s used 61 or 77 movements… The 68 movements are much higher quality and have jeweled pallets... and beat seconds.

second, you're looking at an older version of the ST2 identification chart... here's the latest one... note that i inherited the maintenance of it.

https://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelate...masRegulator_2_identification_v.05-Pgs1-2.pdf

the dates given are not meant to be hard lines, but ranges. i have been meaning to get around to another update of the chart based on more recent info that the 77 movements first appeared closer to 1915.

if you're really on a mission, pull the movement from yours and provide large, clear well-lit photos from all sides... as well as of the case. all will be revealed.

 

[bikerclockguy]

the ST2s used 61 or 77 movements… The 68 movements are much higher quality and have jeweled pallets... and beat seconds.

second, you're looking at an older version of the ST2 identification chart... here's the latest one... note that i inherited the maintenance of it.

https://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelate...masRegulator_2_identification_v.05-Pgs1-2.pdf

the dates given are not meant to be hard lines, but ranges. i have been meaning to get around to another update of the chart based on more recent info that the 77 movements first appeared closer to 1915.

if you're really on a mission, pull the movement from yours and provide large, clear well-lit photos from all sides... as well as of the case. all will be revealed.

I looked at your updated version of the chart, and the info you have added is helpful. From looking at that and the note on my label from the back of the case, I believe my clock was made in 1940. The bottom ornament looks a little like both the 1922-1929 and the 1930-1950, but more like the latter. The label has a handwritten signature, Elmer or Eileen something or other, and March 1940. There is also a faded, hand-stamped 402 next to the word “directions“ on the label. I wondered if maybe the 402 designated a production date of February 1940, and the signature was either the final inspector or possibly the owner of the store that sold it, for warranty purposes. The movement has 1 40 stamped into the front plate, vertically, about an inch above the ST logo. It all fits together in a logical timeline; movement built in January 1940, clock assembled in February 1940(402 ink stamp), and then the final inspector or seller’s signature in March 1940. I’m hesitant to pull the movement after all the problems I had getting it going, and at this point, I feel certain that it will have 77B stamped into the rear plate. I did manage to get a decent pic of the verge setup with it in the case. Picture a brass, cowboy hat-shaped bracket with elongated screw holes on the other side, and that’s the setup. I’ve been going back and forth from taking pics of the clock to typing this, and you may get your wish for better pics after all. While taking pics of the movement, I noticed that the brace for the detent pawl, that rides in the groove on the winding drum(red arrow)is butted up against the pawl. Is that correct, or is the tab on the pawl supposed to hook inside the tab on the lever? If I have to pull the movement to fix that, I’ll snap plenty of pics while I’m at it. I really appreciate the help you’ve given me, as well as the research you’ve done in updating the chart, and I’m glad to contribute what I can to the cause. I think my movement is the last design of the 77B, and I’m not too surprised you haven’t encountered it. Next to the 1976 re-issue, my clock is probably the least valuable/collectible in the ST2 series, and if I knew when I bought it what I know now, I probably would have passed on it. I think I did okay for $550, but it doesn’t give me that “owning a piece of history“ feeling I would get from one of the older ones. I’m posting a screenshot from the timesavers catalog, that I stumbled across while looking for pictures of my movement. If their information is correct, it appears Seth Thomas was considering resurrecting the 77B version I have, but scrapped the idea in favor of the 61. The holes for the verge arbor are the same style as mine, with the exception of having a round hole for the crutch collar Instead of the U-shaped cutout. That makes sense; it’s cheaper to punch the hole than make the cut, and you couldn’t raise the verge arbor that much anyway, without being in danger breaking the pivot. As I was getting ready to attach the pics, I remembered a comment I was going to make on the wood. I’m not 100% certain on this, but I believe the decorative part of my case is cherry, and the dial mounting board appears to be plain old yellow pine.

 

[Richard.W]

While taking pics of the movement, I noticed that the brace for the detent pawl, that rides in the groove on the winding drum (red arrow) is butted up against the pawl. Is that correct, or is the tab on the pawl supposed to hook inside the tab on the lever? If I have to pull the movement to fix that, I’ll snap plenty of pics while I’m at it. I really appreciate the help you’ve given me, as well as the research you’ve done in updating the chart, and I’m glad to contribute what I can to the cause.

That "pawl" is the click for the maintaining power. The maintaining power ratchet is a separate part and is inset into the #1 wheel, which gives the click the appearance of it riding in a groove. The click should move (fall) freely onto the ratchet at any front/back position of the spool and #1 wheel. Obviously, once the click is engaged it will remain fixed.

Not only must the arm of the maintaining click move freely up/down, but the maintaining spring should have the ability to snap the #1 wheel back and forth when the spool is restrained.

I'm posting a screenshot from the timesavers catalog, that I stumbled across while looking for pictures of my movement. If their information is correct, it appears Seth Thomas was considering resurrecting the 77B version I have, but scrapped the idea in favor of the 61. The holes for the verge arbor are the same style as mine, with the exception of having a round hole for the crutch collar Instead of the U-shaped cutout. That makes sense; it's cheaper to punch the hole than make the cut, and you couldn't raise the verge arbor that much anyway, without being in danger breaking the pivot.

The #77 plates offered by Timesavers were not made by Seth Thomas. Timesavers says as much. Nor are they in a finished state. As Bruce previously said, the ST No.2 has one of the most copied movements in the world.

As I was getting ready to attach the pics, I remembered a comment I was going to make on the wood. I'm not 100% certain on this, but I believe the decorative part of my case is cherry, and the dial mounting board appears to be plain old yellow pine.

That is correct. The vast majority of real Seth Thomas No.2 clocks are veneer over soft pine. Only the visible parts are usually veneered.

 

[R. Croswell]

When it comes to setting the beat, one thing that is often overlooked is whether the drops are equal. Unequal drops and being out of beat produce similar sounds. The drops should be set first and this is done with the clock not running. The crutch is moved SLOWLY to the left and to the right just until a tooth on the escape wheel is released. We are looking at how far the tooth drops before hitting the pallet. It should drop the same distance when the crutch is moved to the left or to the right. Another way to say this is that the escape wheel should turn the same amount when the crutch is moved left or right. The two adjustments that are involved are the distance between the pallets, and the distance the verge is from the escape wheel. Deadbeat and recoil escapements are setup somewhat differently but the drops should be equal.

Once the drops are equal, proceed to set the beat in the usual way.

RC

 

[Kevin W.]

I am seeing philips screws used, mine has only slotted screws. So this clock in the thread is a reproduction?

 

[Willie X]

If it's a repo, they often had poorly designed and finished pallets. The last one I delt with had pallets that were to thick. It would not run as a deadbeat but barely ran with the pallets landing on the (to wide) impulse faces. It was repairable but took a long time. This was mainly because I didn't want to remove to much metal and have to start over ... Willie X