ST 89 Mainwheel Question

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Ravens_Time, Sep 12, 2019.

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  1. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Hello Gang,

    I'm working on a ST89 movement which I have disassembled, cleaned, installed a few bushings and polished the pivots. I am also replacing the mainsprings as the time side main wheel has a lot of tooth wear. Strike side wheel has some wear but not near as severe as the time side. I have removed the time side wheel from the arbor and got a new wheel from Timesavers. The problem is the center hole on the new wheel is .0180" larger than the original. On the hub it wobbles quite a bit. Please take a look at my pictures...my question is:Is the original wheel too worn to reverse? And if so is the wobble acceptable when secured by the washer??
    I am slowly getting the tools together to one day cut my own wheels but I'm still aways off. I figured with the 89 movement the replacement mainwheel (#11507) would make an easy replacement but I'm not so sure now.

    Thanks!!

    Pat

    Mainwheel01.JPG Mainwheel02.JPG Mainwheel03.JPG
     
  2. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    You can't live with the wobble. Make a bushing so the new wheel runs true. The old wheel is pretty used up but will probably run f reversed. Make sure the springs are the correct size.

    RC
     
  3. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Thanks RC. I’m putting in 108” .016 springs. The originals are .018 thick. Would you recommend opening the hole up in the wheel a bit to make the bushing walls a little thicker?

    Thanks for the help!

    Pat
     
  4. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    That old wheel is marginal but will probably last another 20 years, just make sure not to rebush the 2nd wheel. Rebushing the 2nd wheel will surely cause binding/stoppage.

    Turning the old wheel around will probably be good for another 50 years, maybe more with a lighter spring.

    Willie X
     
  5. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I believe 108" x 0.016" is the original size, 0.018" is likely an oversized replacement partly responsible for the excess wear. Willie is quite correct, don't bush the second wheel if you reuse the original as is, but if you turn the wheel over, go ahead and bush the second wheel if needed.

    The bushing in the wheel would only be to keep it centered. If you do enlarge opening make sure to keep it centered.

    RC
     
  6. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Pat,

    Another couple of options would have been to farm out fabrication of a replacement wheel to original specs or planishing the original.
    You could still do one of these of course.

    I think it would have been reasonable to planish the old wheel and install the weaker mainspring as you have planned.

    Since you've already gone to the trouble of dismantling the gear, I would carefully attempt to planish it and then turn it over. Don't thin, lengthen/widen the teeth. If you don't want to risk it, skip the practice. Just turn the wheel over and call it good.

    Leave your replacement wheel stock for possible future use.

    If you do bush and use the replacement wheel, or have one fabricated be sure to practice planishing on the old gear and keep it if you're successful.

    The technique might save you time and expense in the future.

    Wheel Replacement or Flip It?
    Worn Mainwheels
    Great Wheel Planishing Failure

    Good luck with it.

    Bruce
     
  7. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    This wheel is heavily loaded as indicated by the wear, it is not a good candidate for planishing. It appears that much of the metal is gone and planishing would result in a thinner (weaker) tooth and after planishing even more metal would be removed by filing to restore the tooth profiles. The un-worn face of the teeth and tooth lengths are as original. If the wheel is flipped there is no reason to planish anything. I would either flip the wheel and use it as is or adapt the new wheel.

    RC
     
  8. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
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    Flip the wheel and re-attach all the hardware. Doing this is pretty common. Just be careful re-attaching everything not to damage the wheel when doing so.
     
  9. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Thanks to everyone for your replies. Certainly given me several options. I would like to keep the original wheel if possible. I had thought it looked too far gone to salvage. I will reverse the wheel and go from there. Fortunately no bushings were needed on T2.

    Thanks for the links Bruce. I will go over those and practice planishing on an old wheel. I may even go ahead and make a bushing for the new wheel just for practice and “just in case”

    I’ll post progress as it’s made.

    Thanks again,

    Pat
     
  10. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Pat,

    Sounds like a good plan.

    My impression that the purpose of planishing is to reverse some of the displacement of brass caused by too much force. The scalloping of the teeth is not all due to wear. Brass gets pushed aside and creates a burr on both sides of each tooth. Planishing doesn't thin the teeth beyond their original thickness, it's supposed to re-establish it and work harden it a little in the process.

    In any case, I think it's a good skill to have. I've tried it a couple of times and liked how it worked.

    I didn't know that Timesavers had such closely matching gear blanks. The rim is a bit thinner but other than that they look like a good match. It seems a lot of their stuff is pretty cheaply made though.

    When you get outfitted to fabricate your own gears, I suppose you might consider using a slightly thicker stock than original for applications such as this.

    Tran identifies the factory installed Time Train Mainsprings for 89 series movement as their No. 29, 9' x 3/4" x 0.017" so the one previously installed was overpowered by an additional 19%. The Strike Train Mainspring was also the No. 29

    I look forward to seeing your progress.

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  11. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    They will run fine on a .015" or even a .014" if all is as it should be. There is no precice point at which the power is 'correct'. As long as there is enough power to run the clock dependably, without the movement having to be in perfect condition.

    Planishing is sort of a temporary improvement with lots of ill side effects.

    Yes, just flip the wheel, as mentioned, with no planishing.

    Willie X
     
  12. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    David LaBounty hasn't steered me wrong yet.:)
     
  13. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Are you saying that Dave advised you to planish a badly worn main wheel such as the one we are discussing?

    RC
     
  14. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    I'm saying that David is an excellent teacher and that I've learned a lot from him. I don't know him but he seems like a pretty decent person with a great amount of knowledge in Clock Repair.

    To my knowledge, he's never described planishing as a sort of temporary improvement with lots of ill effects. I doubt he would recommend it if it wasn't a sound practice.

    This is what I said regarding the current wheel under discussion.

    If you had taken the time to look over the links that I provided, especially the 2nd one, you probably would have skipped your rhetorical question, although I realize it one of your favorite methods of providing an argument.

    I've simply tried to make sure Pat was aware of alternative approaches to this problem. He's obviously trying to do good work.

    I'm not here to argue but I stand behind what I've said in this Thread.

    Bruce
     
  15. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I thought it was me ... I brought it up long ago on one of the early clock list as something common in the jewelry trade. I was the 'Redneck' back then. After explaining the technique, several people used it with good results but as for myself, even a really good planish would not hold up for very long. So, I abandoned it long ago. I'm a flipper now. Ha. Willie X
     
  16. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    #16 Bruce Alexander, Sep 13, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    How many cases did you base your decision on? How long was "very long" and what were the circumstances behind the application? Did you leave the wheel in question overpowered? Was the gear of typical construction, or was it either thinner or thicker than what one typically sees in a Seth Thomas movement like this?

    You're entitled to your opinion, as is RC, as am I. Like I said, David LaBounty hasn't let me down yet.

    I'd also like to point out that it's not a mutually exclusive "My way or the Highway" approach.

    Here's a quote from another very knowledgeable Horologist with many years of experience:
    Again, taken from the 2nd Thread I provided a link to.

    We've only seen a photo of the Gear in question. Only Pat can make an accurate assessment of the condition of the Wheel. He's already decided to flip it or replace it.

    In this discussion, no one mentioned Planishing as an early possible solution to consider or to try before taking more aggressive measures.

    Pat understood what I was saying...
    ...strange that it seems I have to defend myself for saying it, but that's okay. I stand behind what I said.
     
  17. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Sheesh ... Relax ... Try to focus ... You may learn a thing or two. :) Willie
     
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  18. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    I'm am focused on the argument Willie. You should try it instead of casting aspersions and getting personal.
    If you want to continue the discussion, answer the questions I posed to you earlier, or will you leave in a huff again with your famous "I'm out" last words?
     
  19. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Yes, the pattern has been clear for some time.

    You have to be right and everyone else has to be proven wrong by you. Right?

    I've been doing this for a very long time and enjoy helping people to repair their clocks. BUT ... I'm not going to put up with your ego trip s××× much longer. All this is caustic for the MB.

    Maybe the moderators can work out some solution to this ongoing problem?

    Willie
     
  20. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    You're a funny guy Willie. You demonstrate the behavior that you accuse me of.*

    You give me a dismissive "You may learn a thing or two." punctuated with some lame "smiley" face and now you respond with this patented "stuff" of yours after I simply asked you to answer the questions I posed to you earlier.

    It's true that I may "learn a thing or two" but quite honestly it's been a rare occasion where I learned anything useful from you.

    You don't answer questions and often feel the need to announce that you're leaving a thread before you storm out.

    Your "I'm out" pattern is clear. May I suggest in the future that you just leave. We don't need to read the dramatic announcement.

    I simply stated that Planishing was a method used by some as an initial step in the process of reversing distorted teeth in a great wheel.

    You seemed to feel the need to correct me with your blanket statement that...

    *
    You, of course, would know all about that wouldn't you?

    Trying to have an intelligent discussion with you is a waste of my time. Please put me on your 'ignore" list and I promise to do the same to you. Problem solved.

    I think everyone would be happier.

    Consider it done. Have a nice life.
     
  21. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Dave has helped me a few times off this forum and l have the utmost respect for his ability as a clockmaker. Planishing and drawing are acknowledged metal working methods that have their place in horological repair. Dave has published detailed instructions for using planishing along with other techniques to refurbish deformed escape wheels. While planishing is useful as Dave describes it for escape wheel rehabilitation, I do not believe that planishing is appropriate to repair this badly worn main wheel. It iwas not my intention to start an argument when I asked if Dave ever told you to repair a main wheel in this way, I just want to clarify for all whether Dave actually told you that planishing is appropriate in this case, or if you just inferred that from his article on planishing deformed escape wheel teeth. If you can link to one of Dave's posts or publications that describes planishing badly worn main wheels like the one being discussed, I will stand corrected.

    RC
     
  22. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Hello RC,

    The answer to your question is in the Thread links that I provided to our OP earlier.

    The Thread discussions concerned Great Wheels. Dave didn't present it as *the* answer, just as something to possibly attempt. This was the position stated by John Losch as well. The first two thread, planishing was offered as a suggestion. In the third and final thread, it was cited as a failed attempt.

    I have tried it on a couple of occasions and found it to be useful. As you point out, this case appears to be fairly severe and I think Pat is pursuing sound methods in the approach taken.

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  23. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Yes, I do know most everything about planishing. What is it that you don't understand?

    Yes, you do need to be corrected at times.

    Yes, I consider it my duty to do that when necessary.

    No, I don't intend to answer any of your questions.

    Willie X
     
  24. Peter John

    Peter John Registered User
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    Can we just flip the wheel and move on? This thread nearly brought me to tears, either from laughter or waiting for the fisticuffs to start. Grown men acting like 3 year old boys. What shame. This thread should be locked. Peter
     
  25. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Please, please do not lock this thread. I would find it most inappropriate if the moderators were to lock MY thread just because there is questionable behavior by other members.

    If we find that there is inappropriate behavior (in our opinion) then it should be reported and the moderators should contact the person(s) involved.

    This MB will only get better by improving behavior, not by closing threads.

    David
     
  26. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Bruce, you quoted Dave LaBounty in post #17;

    LaBounty said:
    I'd try Shutt's suggestion of planishing before going to all of that work. You might be surprised by the results and can always flip the wheel if planishing doesn't prove satisfactory.

    I would point out that Dave LaBounty has not posted anything to this thread. Your quote was lifted from an older thread discussion about a different main wheel that had only moderate wear to some of the teeth, unlike the wheel that is being discussed here where nearly half of each tooth is gone. Each repair job is somewhat unique and what may be appropriate for one case may be inappropriate in another. I welcome relevant examples of repairs and methods that you have personally accomplished using methods that you have chosen and found to work, but please do not presume what Dave, John, Conover, Goodrich, or anyone else might do in this or any other case.

    Willie, Thanks for your many important contributions.

    RC
     
  27. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I agree and I have. I believe that our moderators should do more "moderating" as well

    RC
     
  28. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    #28 Bruce Alexander, Sep 14, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
    RC,

    Please don't take my comments out of context and don't accuse me of "lifting" something or committing some other inappropriate behavior.

    I did not say that LaBounty, or Losch weighed in on this particular thread. That much should be clear even to the most casual of readers.
    I provided those links initially only as an archival resource in the Message Board for the OP to consider when evaluating how best to address malformed teeth on a Great Wheel in the future. I only quoted them again in response to a general, vague, wholesale dismissal of the method of Planishing. That was something I had just recommended earlier. Reading between the lines, one might as well say "Don't listen to Bruce. He doesn't know what he's talking about.". I'm quite certain that you don't like to be contradicted RC. You often argue very forcefully when you are. I don't like to be contradicted out of hand either and if you're going to challenge something I say, please bring a stronger argument than "Because I say so". Or at least with some degree of civility and respect. I'm the first to admit that I don't know everything and that I can be wrong.

    There seems to be an attitude held by some here that says "I've been doing this longer than you so sit down and shut up and you might learn something". I've seen it personally and I've seen it directed recently at others whose opinions I respect. I'm here to learn and to help others when and where I can. I don't come here to argue, be insulted or talked down to.

    Back on topic, I've learned about Planishing and many other aspects of clock repair by reading people who have a lot of experience; who are peer reviewed and who know what they are talking about. Many who post on the Message Board along with LaBounty, Losch, Conover, Plewes, de Carle, Temple, Balcomb, Nelson, Kieffer, Tope, numerous Horologists published in the NAWCC' Bulletin, a Mentor, and other sources that I might happen upon. I apply what I learn from reading, watching and doing. Since I've only been repairing clocks for about 10 years I'll often refer back to my sources when asked to defend my position, because you know, I haven't been doing clock repair my whole life.

    I have used Planishing on a couple of occasions and I was happy with the result. I did not take photos or records so sorry if I can't point to it with scientific accuracy. A lot of folks here don't provide proof of their concepts. They just report them and move on.

    I've made my points several times earlier in this Thread and I'm not going to repeat myself in detail yet again. I stand behind what I've said here and the way I've used references as an explanation of how and why I think about this method the way that I do. That's the context, and I'll continue to quote my sources in this manner when I feel the need. I'm not "lifting" anything.

    Bruce
     
  29. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Off topic - no response.

    RC
     
  30. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Very much on topic and a direct response to your earlier comments.
     
  31. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    argumentative - no response

    RC
     
  32. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    #32 Willie X, Sep 14, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
    Thanks RC.

    "Off topic - no response" and "Argumenative - no response". I'm going to be using those lines in the future. Maybe it will help keep the threads on track.

    Willie
     
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  33. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    My 2 cents worth, i would not planish the wheel and would turn it over. I wish that people would just chill and just state what they have to say, with out arguing with others.
     
  34. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    Guys… Please… Do not talk about each other. remember the rules.

    If you think someone is out of line with their post, report it... do not respond publicly in the thread.

    Once you’ve stated your opinion you don’t have to repeat it... or argue it. Really.

    And the most important point? No one has THE answer. Your opinion or your experience is just that. your opinion. You get to share it, and that’s it.

    The original poster who asked the original question will probably take the advice that resonates most with them. We’re here to help.
     
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  35. Peter John

    Peter John Registered User
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    So—- you’ve been repairing clocks about 10 years and learned so much. I’ve been repairing clocks and watches more than 60 years and I would not planish a great wheel. All that would do is mash the little ridges on the outside of the teeth back to the edge of the tooth. It would NOT restore the full face width of the tooth. Flip the wheel for many more years of use or get a new one made. There are only 2 solutions to this problem besides leaving it as it is. Peter
     
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  36. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Right on Peter ... two good solutions.

    Planishing does exactly what you describe. The process, when properly done, does looks like you are doing some kind of magic though. But about 5 years later the magic is gone and you’re back with the same problem.

    I've been doing clock repair for about the same amount of time as you, never had the 'touch' for watches though.

    WIllie X
     
  37. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    I think I have an original wheel in decent shape if you are interested
     
  38. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    This thread was almost ready to be shut down, but it seems to be back on topic, so I'll give it amnesty. For now.
    Be nice.

    bangster
    moderator
     
  39. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Wow. I've been away for awhile, so did not see this thread deteriorating.
    My suggestion to you guys is to simply state your opinion on the repair. Don't question others' opinions or suggestions.
    All of you are too good at what you do to squabble over details. I might go through and edit some of the comments here.
     
  40. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Bugs,

    Question, So, if a person is suggesting separating the plates with the power up, or removing the hand pin from a nice Vienna regulator using a claw hammer, exactly what is a person supposed to do?

    These are real situations not hypothetical.

    Willie
     
  41. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I guess just express how dangerous it could be, or that it might damage something (or some one). We need to just keep the focus on the issue at hand and not the people posting things we don't always agree with.
    One of our rules states:
    Perhaps that's where we need to focus here. I know everyone is trying to be helpful. It's appreciated when we can do that tactfully and kindly ;)
     
  42. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Got it.

    To bad more new threads aren't started. Lots of really good information is embedded in non related threads.

    Best wishes, Willie
     
  43. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Mark,

    I sent you a PM. Thanks,

    Pat
     
  44. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Pat,

    There are many, many valuable resources in the Archives of the Message Board. I wanted you to see that as well which is one of the initial reasons that I provided those three links for you to review.

    As you will recall, I only suggested that you try planishing before flipping the gear as you had intended to do all along. I must say that I'm often disappointed with parts that I order from Timesavers. I don't know if there are any better or worse than those available at other Clock Supply houses but as is often the case, Mark Butterworth gives you one of the best options available.

    No one claimed that the technique would or could magically replace brass that has been abraded away. I merely suggested that you try the technique to see what it is capable of achieving. Much of the so-called wear in cases such as this is merely displaced, soft brass. The teeth are not as worn as they appear to be. This brass can be lightly hammered into place and hardened slightly through process of work hardening. As I've mentioned, several very accomplished Horologists have recommended this technique as an initial step in restoring the "worn" Mainwheel. It is very fast and can be very effective. Just so long as you don't thin or otherwise distort/damage the normal form of the teeth you can always flip the wheel if you determine that your planishing efforts are not going to meet with your satisfaction. That was the cautionary tale told in link three that I provided to you earlier. You have to exercise your best judgement. To my knowledge, no one has ever conducted longitudinal studies on the longevity of this method, but the gear can always be replaced or reversed at a subsequent time if necessary. Delaying that by 5, 10, 15 or more years is worth the minimal effort in my opinion.

    Attached are a couple of micro photos I just took on a boneyard Great Wheel.

    Clock repair is not rocket science. Please take a look at photos and judge for yourself. They are pretty self-explanatory and I think they should give you some idea of what to expect. Keep in mind that I'm just a novice. I have little doubt that someone like David LaBounty or John Losch could do a much better job, much faster than I can and I mean that sincerely.

    I apologize to you for hijacking your thread. There was a moderator who was active when I first came on to the Message Board by the name of Richard T. He tried to advise me very early on to, and I quote, "Feel free to not respond" when someone is looking for an argument. We've got some very good moderators who voluntarily work hard to keep things civil here. I still miss Richard though.

    Good luck with your overhaul and keep up the good work! :thumb:


    Regards,

    Bruce

    Before.png After.png
     
  45. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    If I count correctly, five experienced respondents recommend flipping the wheel or replacing it, one respondent recommends planishing. I hope the OP will share the results of the method he selects.

    RC
     
  46. Ravens_Time

    Ravens_Time Registered User
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    Bruce,

    Thank you for your replies! I as well am a novice and I appreciate everyone's responses and input. I've been doing clock repair now for 5-6 years and 98% of what I have learned I have learned on this MB. It is an invaluable resource...Or rather the folks who post and manage the board are invaluable. This particular clock belongs to a family member so it's not going anywhere and I am receiving nothing for overhauling it except experience and knowledge. As I have said on my other posts I learn something new with every clock I repair.

    I do like to have more than one option which is why I ordered the replacement wheel from TS. All of the measurements EXCEPT the I.D. of the center hole were taken and match #11507 exactly. Once I received the new wheel I removed the worn wheel and was able to measure the hub when I found the I.D. was slightly larger. I like you have also found some items from TS were not exactly high quality. Other items have been very good quality. In the case of this wheel, I don't understand why the manufacturer couldn't leave the center hole a little smaller so the repair person can enlarge the hole to fit the application.

    Thanks for the links you provided. I have planished teeth only a few times and frankly I wasn't very good at it. I was working on EW teeth on a ST balance wheel movement. Your photos are very interesting so I am definitely going to work on planishing. I am honestly afraid of trying it on this clock though because it's not mine. I have a room full of my own clocks waiting patiently for me to get to them so I have a lot of candidates.

    No need to apologize. One thing for sure is EVERYONE on this board is passionate about what they do and that shows in their messages. When I post a question and I get a number of different recommendations I figure at least my question wasn't stupid. If it was everyone would post the same reply and then I would say to my self "You dummy, you shoulda known that"!

    So lastly, I am in the process of flipping this wheel (I've never done one) and Mark Butterworth is looking for an original wheel which I may use instead.

    Will update as I progress,

    Pat
     
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  47. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    If you would like to learn more about planishing, David LaBounty has a great video on it. As mentioned in this thread, it won't work miracles, but is a skill that you will want to use from time to time as your progress in clock repair.
     
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  48. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Feb 22, 2010
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    Pat,

    Since you've expressed an interest in, and an intent to look further into planishing, this is just FYI

    A question on the longevity of planishing came up earlier in your thread. My question was not an idle one. It's a very important matter.

    In searching the Internet I found this April 2011 quote from Mr. LaBounty on the matter.

    “I would rather keep things original,” he said. “If we can get another 20, 30 years out of (a wheel) by
    planishing the teeth,” the work is worth it.

    Source:

    Clockmaker teaches centuries-old craft using modern technology

    I would regard that as a "best case" scenario since David is obviously very good at what he does.

    Again, I know that you've formulated your approach in this particular case, and once again, I think it is a good one.

    I look forward to seeing your results if you have the time and are so inclined to share them with us.

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  49. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    The question isn't whether planishing is or is not an effective technique for restoring or extending the life of worn or damaged wheel teeth, but whether the OP's severely worn wheel is too far gone to be an appropriate candidate for planishing. To that end there are differing opinions, which isn't necessarily bad thing.

    RC
     
  50. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    I have not seen the video, but after pounding out the metal in the planishing process, is anything done to restore the original curvature of each tooth? If not, although I really respect Mr. LaBounty, I question the process except as a last resort. It could really accelerate the wear of the pinion being driven and be inefficient in transmission of power.
     

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