Springs won't wind , Movement won't come out.

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by disciple_dan, Mar 7, 2019.

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  1. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Here's one.
    Both of the springs in this Sessions Tambour are let out and the arbors will not hook the ends to wind them. I did get one to catch but I'm afraid to wind too much for fear it will let go and cause damage. The other just is not cooperating.
    I'm struggling here. Danny
    20190307_211413.jpg 20190307_214213stuck spring.jpg
     
  2. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Hi Dan. That looks like a tough nut to crack. I've never encountered this before. How much room do you have through the rear door? Do you have a heavy pair of needle nose pliers? If so, I would try to use them to compress the outer coils enough to extract one side, and then the other from the case. Maybe someone who has actually dealt with this before will weigh in. Good luck!
     
  3. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    With a sessions, good possability that the click rivet is loose or the click spring is broken OD course the spring could be broken. Unusual for the spring to simply unhook for no reason. There isn't any really easy and safe way. You should be able to use aviation style tin snips to cut the spring coils and remove in pieces.

    RC
     
  4. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Well, I got it out but not without some damage. 20190307_220746bent wheel.jpg 20190307_221532.jpg
     
  5. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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  6. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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  7. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    How did you get the movement out Dan. What was the problem with the Mainspring not winding?
     
  8. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Good morning.
    I wound the spring by hand as best I could and finally was able to get the unwound spring past the door jamb and it was free. In the process, it bent the warning wheel. I think I can fix it though. In hindsight, I should have removed the gong first and pushed toward the unwound spring and gotten the other side of the movement out first. Probably would have saved the damage. However, while holding that spring in the wound position it was a difficult situation.
    The springs are fine. The last repairer just didn't get them hooked in a way that when the clock run full down they would stay on their post.

    So, How do I fix the holes left behind after those god awful things they called a repair?


    I post some more pics later. Don't you just love the pics?
    Have a great day, Y'all. Danny
     
  9. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Rathbun bushings! They still sell those things! It's very hard and not really necessary to repair the screw holes. Just remove the things and bush as usual. Those are lazy approaches to repair, but perhaps kept the clock out of the landfill.
    For springs that are broken or unwound like that, a needle nose vise grip works well. Grab as many coils as you can between the jaws, and lock the tool shut. Then you can usually baby the movement out of the case.
     
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  10. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Even run down to the point where the clock stops there is usually enough tension to prevent the spring from coming unhooked. Sessions movements have very thin ratchet ratchet wheels and very thin clicks and the click rivets tend to work loose enough that the click can sometimes slip off the ratchet causing the spring to suddenly unwind, and possibly unhook. I almost always have to replace click rivets on Sessions movements. Of course is someone did remove the spring and didn't form the inner coil properly that could be a problem. One of the biggest problems here is that the opening in the inner coil pressed tight against the back side of the next coil so the anchor pin cannot pass through the hole to get a good "hook". Sometimes the anchor pins get pushed back into the arbor so there isn't enough to get a good lock on the spring, and sometimes the pins get buggered up or rounded off. My point is that if you don't positively identify and correct the problem that caused this spring to let go it's very likely to happen again. Glad you got it out without too much damage.

    RC
     
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  11. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Hey, thanks for all the great comments and help.
    I have it disassembled and getting it cleaned. When I start the bushing process I'm going to need some help with the time side winding arbor bushings. Front and back it looks like. I've never done one of those.
    Back later, Danny
     
  12. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Time side winding arbour bushings. I like making them on the lathe, you can make them easily and assortments never have what you really need. What a mess with those rathbun bushings.
     
  13. lpbp

    lpbp Registered User
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    I have fixed a few rathbun's, I know it's a lot more work than necessary but I ream out the screw holes and plug them with brass round stock.
     
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  14. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    You can also ream the holes with a bushing reamer and use a blank bushing (no hole) to plug the hole.

    Uhralt
     
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  15. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Rathbun City!!!

    Listen to Shutterbug and ignore the screw holes.
    Or if you're concerned about cosmetics, listen to uhralt.

    Is what I think. :)
     
  16. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Next time ... if the spring is still hooked to the arbor, you can wind it up with a reversable drill and then let it down into a retainer clip. The drill will need to have a brake that doesn't allow the chuck to turn without power being applied. Here is a photo of the set-up you will need.
    20160106_163403.jpg Willie X
     
  17. shutterbug

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    Cool idea, Willie. I'm afraid I'd be tempted to use it to wind the clocks too :D
     
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  18. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Yeah, I made all the mistakes on that one but now I know, and knowing is half the battle. Thanks for all the help, Danny
     
  19. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    I love it. This clock has its own set of challenges That I have not dealt with thus far. I going to learn much from this one also.
    So for it's; straitening the bent wheel (that I bent), One of the great wheels click spring tension wire broke off and it requires removal of the click ( as best I can see). I'll have to make a new rivet for that., Bushing the time side great wheel, front and back. Never done that before. One of the lantern pinion wires came out and one pinion is twisted. Never done that before.
    So, I will be asking a lot of questions in the near future, stay tuned.
    Thanks in advance, Danny
    I think I'll start with the click. I'm going to drill it off from the spring side.
    20190309_123159sesionsclick.jpg 20190309_123143sesionsclick1.jpg
     
  20. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I usually grind off the head on the spring side and just punch the rivet out. I would go back with a shoulder rivet. Enlarge the hole in the click to fit the shoulder and make the rest of the rivet fit the existing hole. Steel spring wire will be more reliable than brass.

    RC
     
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  21. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    OK, I found time to work on this Sessions again.
    I got the rivet made on my lathe. It was a bit intimidating at first but I worked thru it. I don't know the speeds to cut at and things like that and I hate to not know. I looked it up on google but I didn't understand it. It' gave the speed in "feet per" and something else, I don't remember now. Anyway, I have to get this figured out.
    20190312_135737.jpg
    So what I did was file the worn edge from the rivet making sure to keep the same angles as the original one. I had to take about 1 mm off the long edge and half that off the end. Still, plenty of brass left.
    I still want to make sure I understand it here. I know you want the rivet to be drawn in the down position. So, the way the original one looked was the head of it has full contact with the gear tooth and the long edge has mostly just the tip in the gullet. Is that correct?
    Here are some pics.
    20190312_142418.jpg 20190312_142432.jpg 20190312_142527.jpg
    This is the one I am repairing. It has not been riveted in yet. I'm looking for the right wire size.
    Is pivot wire going to be too stiff for the click?
     
  22. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Pivot wire will work if you choose the right size. Can you compare with the other wheel? The wire doesn't need to be thick.

    The instructions for the lathe are in feet per second. That means, for the lathe running with the same rpm, the feet per second (the length of travel of the workpiece per second) are more with a large diameter rod compared to a small diameter rod to be machined. In practice it means the smaller the work piece is. the higher the rpm.can be. I think over time you just develop a "feeling" for what an appropriate speed is.

    Uhralt
     
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  23. shutterbug

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    Just the way it looks in the pictures you posted. The wire will be "spring wire" that you can find in the supplier web sites. Steel is best. You could also make one if you can find the right size steel wire. The wire inserts into the click, and it's not easy to do. You'd be better off getting a new click with the spring already attached.
     
  24. bangster

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  25. Kevin W.

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  26. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Ok, I got the click back in. How does it look? Well, thanks. It's not going to work though. That .09 mm brass wire is as week as two-day-old dishwater. It must be a different grade the original 7.5 mm wire. The wire I have is way too soft.
    Metal grades, sizes, and compositions are a hard thing to learn in a hurry. I'm so far behind.
    Did you guys all go to Horology school or were apprentices?
    What's the best way to get caught up?
    I'm thinking of a 14-week course at Gem City college. It's 10,000 for the course and I would have to rent a place in Ohio for 4 months. That's a lot for me to come up with. Any ideas?
    Ok, back to the clock. The wire I have in it now is working but I'm just afraid to leave it that way. A failure of this system could be catastrophic.
    I went ahead and ordered some new clicks this morning. I guess I'll wait for them and put a new one in.
    Thanks again, Danny
    20190312_221432Sessions.jpg 20190312_221413Sessions.jpg
     
  27. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I think most of us are mostly self taught, taking in instruction from books, video's and experienced people on this board. It just takes time and determination. You're always going to have good experiences and bad ones. You learn from both.
     
  28. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thanks for encouragement SB.
    At 61 I just feel so far from where I want to be I wonder if there's enough time. God willing that is.
    I spent my life as a home builder and a safe technician so I'm familiar with tools but the lathe and all the knowledge you need to go with it is something I never had the opportunity to learn.
    So, here we go.
    I'm waiting on the click to come for this thread.
    I'm going to start another thread when I find out the maker of this clock. Does anybody know who made it?
    20190313_210818.jpg 20190313_212319.jpg 20190313_212639.jpg 20190314_090851.jpg
    In the last pic that's 200 stamped there.
     
  29. Simon Holt

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  30. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thanks, peanuts. Very interesting. I'm starting a thread on it soon.
     
  31. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    #31 disciple_dan, Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
    Back to the Sessions click.
    20190319_104020.jpg
    I got these at Timesavers. It's a pair and says 6 pcs set. Can someone tell me what the hook wire is for?

    Also, the rivet that came with it won't fit thru the hole in the wheel. It fits the click. Should I drill the hole larger in the wheel or work on the rivet?

    20190319_122738Sessions.jpg 20190319_122612.jpg
     
  32. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    The last 2 pics in post #31 are of a different Sessions I'm working on. Don't mind them at this time.
    I wasn't going to start another clock until I got the three I'm working now finished but a paying job:) came along and I have to get it done.
    I'm looking for a thread to find out about badly worn great wheel teeth. If I don't find one to join I will start one on that clock.
     
  33. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    In some wheels the tab for the spring is on one spoke further away from the click. Then the U wire is used to attach the spring wire loosely to the spoke next to the click to prevent the wire from moving away from the wheel. In your case you won't need it. When you look at mainwheels from other makers you will see what I mean. They usually have the U-wire installed from the factory.

    You can widen the hole to fit the rivet using a broach. That way you will get a nice tight fit better than you would achieve with a drill. Then peen the rivet!

    Uhralt
     
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  34. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Since you have a lathe, why not make a two step rivet for the click, i dont use the store bought rivets, i can make better ones my self.
     
  35. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thanks for the great help Uhralt.
    Yeah, Kevin. I will try to make my own when I get a little more practice and confidence in working with my lathe. You might say what better practice than making rivets, right. Soon, I will. Thanks for the encouragement.
     
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  36. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    RC, (From post #20) what do you use to grind the rivet off? Can you do it without marring up the surrounding area?
     
  37. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    So, I'm ready to install this new timesaver click. I can see that it needs to be fitted to the click gear.
    Here are some pics of the actual click on the wheel and a drawing I made to explain my question.
    20190319_171812.jpg 20190319_171742.jpg
    As you can see, the click does not fit in the gear properly. My question is; Does this drawing look like what I want the click to look like when finished.
    Explained: The head needs to fit the exact angle of the pushing side of the click gear tooth. Along the bottom, it should be seated in the gullet with a slight upward angle or relief so that when winding the head will be released before it is lifted out of the gullet.
     
  38. David S

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    You click in post #21 looks pretty good as an example of fit.

    David
     
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  39. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    What do you use to penne the rivet?
     
  40. David S

    David S Registered User
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    I use a small home made ball peen hammer. Brass head with a 1/2" steel ball in one side, on a buck store screw driver handle.

    ball pein hammer 1.jpg
    or sometimes with my staking set if I can get access shown here peeing a stop pin
    wheel in staking set.jpg

    David
     
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  41. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Shape the face of the click so you have maximum flat-on-flat contact between the click and the click wheel. A shouldered rivet is way better than a straight walled one.
     
  42. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    This fly has a twisted lantern. I'm searching the forum for the best way to repair this.
    20190323_090201Sessions Lantern.jpg
     
  43. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You should be able to grip the cap and twist it back straight. If it moves too easily, it might need a bit more help.
     
  44. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thanks, shutterbug. I found a thread from 2012 that said the same thing. Probably because it was you that said it then too! Thanks again, Danny
    I there a way to put the threads I have searched for in a topic file? Like when I find a good one I on lantern pinions I put it under a heading of Lantern Pinions or Escape Wheel or Bushing a Barrel. I know I can watch the thread but If I have a 200 watched I would still have to look for those on lanterns. Is that being lazy?
     
  45. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    I think you can always bookmark a Thread Dan. Then you should be able to label and organize your bookmarks however you'd like.
     
  46. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    This subject should probably be in the discussions forum. Is watching the same as a bookmark? I don't see a bookmark button.
    I'll look into it. I will search the discussion forum for something too. Thanks.
     
  47. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Hey Dan,
    When I suggested that you bookmark a discussion I was talking about using your Browser to save the URL location of a Thread/Post.
    Your Browser should allow you to save the address of a thread. You can label and organize your "bookmarks" any way you like. In essence, your Browser's "Topic File". You can also copy and paste content of course, but it should be safe to just save the bookmarks since the Message Board's archives will be available for as long as the Message Board is up and running.

    "Watching" a Thread is a specific utility of the Message Board and will tell you when something new has been added to a discussion of interest to you.

    Did I not understand your question? What is it that you want to do? Are you trying to save off current postings or past entries in older threads that you've found helpful? Both perhaps?
     
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  48. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    And, you can organize them into a .doc file with links that are accessible with the control button if you prefer.
     
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  49. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Yeah, thanks shutterbug. I got it figured out. I'm putting them in files on my desktop. I still working on the Sessions. I'll need some help with it next week. Thanks again, Danny
     
  50. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Hey Y'all,
    I'm back to my clocks after a week of installing windows. I have been a builder most of my life and it still pays most of the bills.
    OK, I made my first great wheel bushing. It turned out pretty good if I say so myself.
    In the pic of the drilling process, do the chips look right for brass?
    Also, Is it the smaller the workpiece, the faster or the other way around?
    20190401_145337bushing.jpg
    Yes, I removed the shop rag after I realized how dangerous it looked in the pic.
    20190401_151426bushing.jpg 20190401_152454bushing.jpg

    Now, Here is a pic of the inside backplate. It looks as though it was bushed in the past but is badly worn again. It would appear he has peened this one in and I'm going to have to grind the peen off before I punch it out.
    Any suggestions?
    20190401_154347bushingfront.jpg
     

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