Spring Time

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by h2chuck, Aug 29, 2019.

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  1. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    20190829_204822.jpg 20190829_204822.jpg

    I will attemp a picture of the spring and maybe it will work for me.This spring is out of a Junghans Bracket clock and it is for the chime train so no need to mention how stout it is.My question is can it be repaired safely or not.I only ask because the replacements are not equal to old springs.I have saw the procedures to repair the barrels but not the springs.If anyone has an idea or an opinion or advice other than dont do it.

    Thanks

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  2. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    Yes, this is common problem and can easily be repaired.

    First, heat the spring to a dull red to anneal it, about 1 1/2" is enough. It has to cool as slowly as posible. Cut the end to a rounded shape to match the old end. Mark the center of where the major hole needs to be and drill or punch a hole. Usually about 3/16" is good. Shape the hole to march the old hole. This is usually a pear shape.and can be made by using various round files (chainsaw files). All areas of the hole should be rounded, no sharp corners. When done fileing, use a sandpaper stick to smooth all surfaces. Lastly, make a sharp bend at the tail end of the hole, with the part of the spring past the bend curved to the contour of the barrel. This is covered extensively in the MB archives.

    Willie X
     
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  3. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Harbor Freight has an inexpensive hole punching set that works well for the initial hole. As Willie said, you still have to shape it correctly with files though.
     
  4. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    You can also punch the hole using a prepaired short (2") length of drill rod. Hold it with tongs and one good wack with the ole shop hammer (against a hard lead block) will give you an instant hole. You have to be careful using punched holes as the metal will sometimes shatter or crack at the peremeter of the hole. This is OK, only if questionable area/s can be completely filed away. Wear eye protection too. I've seen lots of shattered chisels and punches ...

    Oh, If you drill holes in springs, always clamp the spring securely to a large piece of wood. Hand holding will (sooner or later) give you a big surprise!

    Willie X
     
  5. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    Thanks for all the input.Very much appreciated.I will go to work now..

    Chuck
     
  6. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    20190831_114843 (2).jpg 20190831_115211.jpeg 20190831_114843 (2).jpg I am going to post this here because it is directly affected by this spring.This is a Junghans first part of 1920 and the only numbers on this movement is lower right corner and it reads 140.
    This is a west minister movement and this particular movement has the enclosed chime drum with the musical tabs (for a lack of better words) placed around the drum.I have had this movement before and the almost identical problem with the chime.I do not remember what the cause of the problem with that clock.The tabs have a tendency to lay down to the point that they do not lift the strike arm enough to make a proper strike on the chime rod.
    The reason i am bringing this into here is because if you have the cock wound tight it seems to work with out the drum locking up ( just stops in the middle of the chime sequence ) for about 6 - 8 hours.I am going to order a replacement spring and replace it and see if that corrects this problem.The spring pictured here is the chime train spring.It is possible that it is set.The diameter of the spring when removed from the barrel was 9 inches or so measuring across the coils outside.I do not have a new one to compare it with but i bet it is larger than this one. I am going to find out the size of a new one unless someone out there knows for sure what the correct size is?I will replace it either way.
    I may just have spring problems causing other problems with this clock. It is to bad that this model doesn't have the movement that is designed to remove springs without dissembling the entire movement. I have one of that nature and it is so much more a pleasure to work on than this one.Thanks for listening and i will follow up when i can find and get a replacement.I will try to post pics of this. 20190831_115014.jpeg
     
  7. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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  8. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    A pin drum.That sounds appropriate or maybe pain drum.:) It is a poorly designed part as far as dependability goes .Like i said above it may be a spring causing all my grief .

    Chuck
     
  9. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Some of us refer to that style as a Tin Can Drum. Cheaply made, and much subject to wear.
     
  10. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Chuck, I would think that your spring is not your problem, from your description, it is OK. There may be a power loss problem lower in the train.
     
  11. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    Hey I was thinking along the same lines.It has a good heavy made movement and then you put something that clearly was not up to par with the rest of the clock.What is the other design.Let me see if i can upload a picture of it.This set up works great hardly any issues.I appreciate the info from you and all the years of experience that this MB brings to everyone.It is always good to know that if you need help whether it be step by step help or pictures explaining different ways of repairs and you name it and it can be resolved here or pointed in the right direction. Thanks to everyone.

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  12. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    That's some pin drum (the sheet-metal one with the punched-out pins, that is.) I wonder if it would be possible to reinforce those pins somehow. All I can think of is solder: a fillet of solder at the base of each 'pin' might stiffen it.

    Mainsprings, unless broken, are seldom the cause of malfunctions in clock movements. Those mainsprings shown earlier were subject to someone trying to wind the clock with a wrench or otherwise over-torquing them. I'm always surprised that the movement plates don't fail when this happens.

    M Kinsler
     
  13. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    Dick I thought so to so i went back and did the ABC's as i call them .I added a gear at a time just like you would do with a pocket watch or i guess maybe a ww as well and i was not happy with the power transfer.It did not sound right and it just seemed to me like a shaft was bent after the melt down it had.I checked all the shafts, bushings, and the pivots all the way back to the spring.I decided i would eliminate as much as possible.I measured the trundles they varied a little from one gear to another.It seemed like the gears closest to the spring drum was worn more than the others and, I didn't think the wear was anything other than maybe yrs of service.I replaced them all (trundles), every gear all the way to the top.It helped some.I dont know The pivot fitment is great on this clock,no problems there.I haven't put it back together yet.I am still wrestling with the idea of replacing the spring.I hate to put in a new one because they are just not as good as the originals.It does not take long to put together I may just get a new spring and try it both ways.That is the only way i will know for sure.
    But you are right i do not think it is the spring either.It is a beast of a spring.
    I will report back when resolved.
    Thanks
    Chuck
     
  14. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I don't think the drum is the problem. The pins seem to be fine to my eye. I'd look at the hammer tail where the pins hit to lift the hammers. Those typically wear out first.
     
  15. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    Well shutterbug i looked at those and they had some wear.If you look at the hammer tail on top of the drum these were from left to right ,the outside hammers looked fine and the 2 in the middle were worn pretty bad just eyeballing them.So i had a used set that were in good shape so i put those on and i also adjusted the pins i guess you call them.I went completely around the drum and set them all at the same height then went back and checked the hammers after the adjustment and they appeared to be fine.I dont have a repair manual that tells the clearance for this procedure so i (like I said ) eyeballed them and i would guess they had 0.015 thousands and that is a guestumet ( let the spell checker figure that out );) I had enough to see between the hammer and pin and hopefully without binding.It may be a set standard for them in a book some where , but i dont have the book It did help the chime sound quite a lot.
    The wear pattern was unusual on the hammers.They were touching the top of the pins on the outside and the 2 inside were almost worn to the point it may have lifted the hammer 1/4 inch.That makes the sound low on the db meter.
    The problem i am fighting now is when the chime sets and and then release, the drum starts to turn and then just stops.It may lift one hammer and then stops.It is not locking up.The slightest touch of the drum in that position and it will it will lift maybe 2 more hammers and so on It almost acts like it has run out of power..I have checked the shaft the drum runs on and i cant see anything wrong there the fit from shaft and drum seem ok .The shaft the hammers operate off of seems ok as well. It is some little thing i am missing.I am going to do some more checking.I will check back. later .I got bad grades in school for writing,, Thanks Fellows:(
     
  16. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I believe you have hit upon the real reason for your dilemma. It's a power problem. The chime train is very dependent on power, and the slightest variation will kill the action. Your job, as a repairman, is to find the areas that may rob power, and fix them. You might need bushings, you might need polished pivots .... but when you get it all corrected you will have a happily running clock. ;)
     
  17. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    Shutterbug I just knew you were going to come back with pin point accuracy and tell me where the problem lies.The gears that transmit the power are both on the outside back of the clock and they seem to have a lot of freeplay i noticed.I am going to try that area 1st.One is just and idler as i will call it and the other is 1off the mainspring,This is getting to be more of a job than a hobby.Glad this is not for a customer.I will be back.

    Thanks
    Chuck
     
  18. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    With the springs let down, rock the main wheels back and forth, and notice which pivots jump back and forth. Those will all need to be bushed ;)
     
  19. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    Hello
    You may very well be right.Does the tolerances have to be that precise for this thing to function properly? I am looking at this thing and it is hard to see movement with power unloaded.That is the condition of this movement.
    I have 2 of these movements.
    They both have the 140 stamped at back bottom right side and I have been referencing kinda back and forth checking the fitment and they are pretty tight. Both these movements have never been bushed and over 100 yrs old.You and I both have seen American clocks not go that long without bushings and then there are exceptions as well.
    They were doing something right back in the day.
    I am going to work with it and maybe what ever it is will show itself.I have to be close to the problem and maybe it is some where in this pinwheel and the pins or close to it.I will check back and forth with progress or no progress.
    I will Prevail !!

    Chuck
     
  20. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Keep us updated, Chuck!
     
  21. h2chuck

    h2chuck Registered User
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    Hello
    I am still working on the problem.I had to stop to get caught up on other repairs.I have new springs ordered and when i receive those i will get back to trouble shooting.
    Chuck
     

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