Sourcing an Elgin 861-C balance staff?

[MrRoundel]

Greetings all.

I just received an Ebay purchase that arrived with a broken staff. This despite it specifically being described as the staff being OK. I'm seeing if I can get enough of a refund to balance out the hassle factor, aggravation, disappointment, etc. But frankly, I think I'd probably be happier with returning it. But it is a nice Elgin grade 50 convertible, with nice dial and hands, that is worth fixing. It's just that I bought it being pretty sure I would get by with a C&O, and perhaps a MS. And really, anything other than a BS would conceivably be on me. But a broken staff it has. And geez, it is so wobbly and obvious. Sorry, I said rant over. I'll behave.

So the big question, in the event the seller and I agree on a partial refund, is about the staff the grade 50 takes, and whether they are easily sourced. According to my Elgin parts book the staff is an 861-C. I do not see any 861-C staffs for sale on Ebay, FWIW.

I'm sure that Rick Hufnagel would be likely to know this staff, as I believe he is an Elgin aficionado. Any help is appreciated. Cheers.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

I believe the "c" staffs are just conical pivots..

in the old manuals the material was ordered by class... In the 1896 this grade 50 (class 17) was separated from the lower grades but in the 1904 they are all put together.

Take a look at your staff and see if it has conical pivots. I'd wager it probably doesn't anymore if it's been restaffed in the past.

Unfortunately the 861 is the generic number for the 16s balance staff. There are many different flavors.
This is from the 1914 material catalog and explains everything very well.


There are lengths for the new and old style 861 here

Staffs, Balance - Net Price List of Materials Manufactured by the Elgin National Watch Co. (1904) | PWDB Digital Archive

Digitized publication archived by the Pocket Watch Database.

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, Rick. I sort of figured it may not be particularly straight forward. After all, it is an old watch.

Since I don't know what this seller is going to do about the issue, i.e. partial of full refund and return, I won't have a look at the pivots just yet. If we come to an agreement, then I'll get a look at the staff and see what I need to get. Otherwise, I'll be happy to return it. It's not like I needed an other pocket watch to staff. They're around in abundance, aren't they? Many thanks for your learned input. Cheers.
MrR

 

[MrRoundel]

The seller made good on the convertible Elgin. Now I have another one in the "Needs staff" pile...er...box. The movement is nice enough to avoid the "Parts Watches" pile...er...box as well. Now the hunt begins for the staff. Cheers all.

 

[179]

The seller made good on the convertible Elgin. Now I have another one in the "Needs staff" pile...er...box. The movement is nice enough to avoid the "Parts Watches" pile...er...box as well. Now the hunt begins for the staff. Cheers all.

I believe the "C" indicates an oil-grooved staff. I have never seen an Elgin balance staff that did not have conical pivots.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

believe the "C" indicates an oil-grooved staff.

Many apologies about the misuse of the word conical. I incorrectly thought that conical meant the staffs with an oil groove. Don't ask how that one got stuck in my brain.

Conical just means the shape of the pivot. I had that one pretty mixed up. Thanks for the correction.

 

[EscapeWheel]

Does this one look like it'd work?

Elgin 16S Pocket Watch Balance Staff Factory (#861C) (jewelerssupplies.com)

 

[MrRoundel]

Rick Hufnagel , FWIW, I did take a look at drawings of Elgin staffs. Believe it or not, I think one actually did have cylindrical pivots. But, as has been said, the rest are conical.

EscapeWheel , Thanks, that does look like the one, oil groove and all. Cheers.

 

[John Runciman]

oil groove

I found an image which gives sizes of things. I'm assuming that oil groove isn't really a requirement even if it's a separate staff?

 

[MrRoundel]

Thanks, John Runciman
Those are very close to the measurements I got from the old staff.
Cheers.