Some questions about Schatz clocks

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by jahresuhr, Mar 8, 2018.

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  1. jahresuhr

    jahresuhr Registered User
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    When did Schatz first add leveling screws to the bases? Most likely, when this feature was introduced, existing stock without leveling screws, painted in various colors, was used up over several months. Which plate(s) first used this base with leveling ?

    Plate 1283:

    Plate 1283 was used in 2/53 and 3/53 with a movement containing the compensating spring barrel. These Plate 1283 movements have a date.

    Are there examples of Plate 1283 as shown in the RG without the date? Are there Plate 1283 movements with other dates? Please post a photo.

    Comparing plates 1283 and 1287 (and 1014) with earlier plates 1279 and 1281, three extra holes were added (two of which are tapped). Do these holes have a purpose?

    Plate 1291:

    Does Plate 1291 (without the RR) have 49 in the circle or 49R in the circle? The production date also includes a month . Please post a photo.

    The Schatz clock in the photo has Juba signed on the dial. Is there any information about Juba?

    Thank you for any information about these questions.

    Juba.jpg
     
  2. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    #2 etmb61, Mar 9, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
    Schatz added leveling screws on some of their full sized clocks and all of their smaller clocks in 1953.

    Also, Schatz bought back its shares from Remmington Rand in 1954, so the plates stamped RR disappeared after that.

    Eric
     
  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Per some of John's notes, there was a deal between Schatz and Remington to help them sell razors in Germany but the war got in the way. When Schatz came back on line after the war, Remington still wanted their investment to be honored. So, RR was added to clocks bound for the US. Once the investment was paid off, the RR stamp was discontinued in 1954.

    Kurt
     
  4. jahresuhr

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    Compare Plates 1279, 1281, and 1283 in the Repair Guide. Plate 1279 has the RR marking, Plate 1281 has a date, and Plate 1283 has the RR marking and three extra holes, two of which are threaded. I have only seen Plate 1283 with a date.


    Can anyone post photos of any of the following:

    Plate 1283 (with the three extra holes) as shown in the RG without a date.

    Plate 1283 with a date earlier than 2 53.

    Plate 1291 (as shown without the RR marking).

    Any assistance will be appreciated.
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Here's the only Schatz with plate 1283 that I have notes on at the moment. Date is 12-52. It has a spring guard but I removed it for the pictures.

    Kurt

    Schatz49Frt.jpg Schatz49Plt2.jpg
     
  6. jahresuhr

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    This photo is quite helpful. Are there any leveling screws on the base? Early bases with leveling screws had a plastic foot under the base in the front, and two leveling screws toward the rear. I do not notice leveling screws toward the rear in the photo.
     
  7. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    The Schatz sales literature I have states they have 3 leveling screws.

    Schatz_9_10_1.jpg

    Do you have an example of the early base you describe?

    Eric
     
  8. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    I just happen to have a 1283 on my bench in the middle of a complete overhaul/polishing. As you can see mine does not have a date stamped on it. My clock is nearly identical to the picture Kurt posted except all the paint has been removed from the base on mine. Also mine has 3 leveling screws and it does not appear that Kurt's clock does. If you wish I will post a picture in a day or two when it is all back together.

    media.jpg
     
  9. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    #9 John Hubby, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
    Harry, in looking at the plate you posted, it appears to be Plate 1279 and not 1283. Yours does not have the three additional holes that Jahresuhr mentioned and that are shown on Plate 1283 in the Repair Guide. Being there is no date stamp your clock it would be assumed to have been made in 1949, based on Plate 1014A being stamped 1 50.

    However, you say yours has three leveling screws, and all data to date indicate the first leveling screws didn't show up until late 1952 or the beginning of 1953. That would say your clock should have a 1953 or later date stamp.

    These anomalies make accurate dating of these clocks a royal pain, especially when we encounter numerous errors in the plate drawings in the Repair Guide.
     
  10. jahresuhr

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    The contradiction between a movement made in 1949 and a base made in 1953 or later can be explained if the clock described is a marriage. Perhaps, in the past, a helpful repair person used parts on hand and switched a movement to speed up a repair, or swapped a base to sartisfy a customer who wanted to level a clock easliy. This clock might be dismissed as a marriage rather than used to establish patterns used by Schatz in clock manufacture.
     
  11. KurtinSA

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    The base in the clock that I posted has no leveling screws and no provisions for them. I can't imagine that the clock is a marriage.

    Kurt
     
  12. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I have quite a few Schatz full size clocks...wasn't really aware I had that many! I suspect that people tend to have a few of them. I checked the ones I could easily get to...some haven't been on the repair table just yet. The only type of leveling set up I'm seeing is the ones where they are integral to the base in that there are holes cut through the sides of the base so the thumbwheel sticks out...as opposed to other styles which are a screw that threads in from the underside and the thumbwheels stick out from under the base. Without regard to the back plate, here's what I have in terms dates and leveling screws. It does look like from this limited set that the cutoff is mid year 1953.

    7 52 -- no screws
    10 52 -- no (I have two clocks with this date)
    1 53 -- no
    2 53 -- no
    5 53 -- no
    11 53 -- yes
    1 54 -- yes
    11 54 -- yes
    3 56 -- yes
    3 57 -- yes

    Kurt
     
  13. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Ah yes I see now that my plate is 1279 and not 1283. As you can see the columns, the dial and the pendulum (and also the hands) are the same as Kurt's though. I tend to think the base may be a marriage as it was not painted.. At first I thought maybe some previous owner had removed the paint due to poor condition but now after learning more about dating Schatz clocks using the leveling screws I suspect mine is a replacement base. I only know the history of this clock back to the junk store I found it in.

    image000000.jpg
     
  14. jahresuhr

    jahresuhr Registered User
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    #14 jahresuhr, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
    I will respond to several posts.

    Harry- Thank you for confirming that your clock is most likely a marriage.

    Eric- Here are some photos of the clock. The first photo shows the underside of the base with only two leveling screws and a plastic foot in the front. In the second photo, an adjusting disc can be seen toward the back of the clock with no adjusting disc in the front. This clock has the extra barrel on the third wheel as seen in the third photo, and the fourth photo shows the back plate with date 2 53.

    Underside of base.jpg Clock from front.jpg Clock from side.jpg Clock from back.jpg



    There is an older version of the Schatz sales literature you posted on Bill's Clockwork's website here:
    https://clockhistory.com/0/schatz/document-2252-1.html

    Note that the leveling screws mentioned in the middle panel of your post are not mentioned in the earlier version.


    Kurt- I did not mean to imply that your clock was a marriage. Sorry for the confusion. It looks original to me. Does your clock have the extra barrel on the third wheel?

    I am interested in details about the dates you posted: 1 53 2 53 and 5 53. These dates are during a transitional phase. This is a transitional phase for Schatz, and I am interested in knowing the movements used on these clocks. The no and yes indications on the remaining dates you gave are expected.

    Thanks to everyone providing information on these clocks.
    Frank
     
  15. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Another transitional aspect for this period is the change from adjustable pallets to a solid anchor.
     
  16. KurtinSA

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    Frank -

    I discovered only today, that my clock dated 5 53 has no movement! I guess that's not that helpful!! Not sure what you want to know about the other movements. The 1 53 and 2 53 clocks were part of an estate purchase. I have not had the "pleasure" of taking them apart. I found that they run as is, a tribute to the previous owner. I've only found one of my Schatz clocks that has the maintaining power wheel. It's not part of the list I provided above. Turns out, the date on that clock is 3 53 and also has "RR" stamped on the plate. My notes say that it is plate 1283. It has non-adjusting pallets. From something John wrote a while back, the third wheel maintaining power was used for a short period of time in 1953 and early 1954. It didn't really help all that much and Schatz discontinued using it in clocks because of the added hassle of producing the item when it wasn't as effective as planned.

    Kurt
     
  17. jahresuhr

    jahresuhr Registered User
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    Kurt,

    I was interested in knowing the plate number used with dates 1 53, 2 53, and 3 53, which you indicated do not have leveling screws.

    Your 3 53 Plate 1283 with date and the maintaining power wheel should have the base with the plastic foot in front and 2 leveling screws at the back.
    That base was used in 2 53, 3 53, 4 53, and 6 53 productions of clocks with maintaining power wheel. Three leveling feet appeared on the base also in 6 53.

    I have not found a clock with maintaining power wheel dated 5 53.

    Does your Plate 1283 clock dated 12 52 have the maintaining power wheel?

    Frank
     
  18. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    OK I have recorded a Schatz with only two leveling screws. I just never noticed it before. It had plate 1287, dated 4 53, and had a third wheel barrel. It was painted blue with the full color dial depicting a man holding a staff, dog at his side, and a seated woman offering something up for him to take. It also had the more ornate style hands, and a drilled dome with a securing loop. Sorry I don't own the pictures so no posting them here. Don't have one showing the bottom of the base anyway.

    Eric
     
  19. KurtinSA

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    Frank -

    Plate numbers:
    1 53 -- 1287
    2 53 -- 1287
    3 53 -- 1283

    I do now see that the 3 53 plate has just two leveling screws in the back. I had forgotten about that.

    I'm sorry...I don't think I've mentioned a clock dated 12 52. Did I miss something?

    Kurt
     
  20. jahresuhr

    jahresuhr Registered User
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    Eric,

    Thanks for posting. The plate 1287, dated 4 53, has the carrying handle through a hole in the dome. Often it is not present, and the upper movement pillars will be drilled with threaded holes to which the top bracket was originally attached. When a dome is broken, a helpful repair person removes the bracket so an ordinary dome can be used. It was not intended for securing since the spring loaded disc is UNDER the dome and acts as a dust cover. Your clock follows the patterns I have observed.

    Frank
     
  21. jahresuhr

    jahresuhr Registered User
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    Kurt,

    Your 3 53 plate 1283 clock follows the patterns I have observed. The reason for posting these questions is to determine if there were introductions of features earlier than I have observed.

    You did mention a 12 52 clock with plate 1283 in your Saturday 7:07 PM post. Is there an RR on that plate? So far, I have not observed plate 1283 (with date) before 2 53.

    On the 2 53 and 3 53 clocks with plate 1287, could you verify that it is actually plate 1287 with the TWO (2) JEWELS inscription? So far, I have not observed plate 1287 before 4 53. There is always something new to be discovered.

    Frank
     
  22. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    #22 MartinM, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
    John Hubby posted with this scenario for the parts placement once, as well.
    I maintain that this is not the way the parts are to be assembled.
    The dome is installed over the post and the loop and washer assembly is then put on, followed by the securing nut.
    The spring is simply used to hold the washer in place on the bottom of the loop component.
    The washer's slight convex shape ensures the dome is held on securely.

    Another question regarding feet...
    Do we have any consensus on which clocks used brass adjuster discs for the levelers versus plastic ones, for both RR and standard Schatz clocks.
    I have one dated 2 52, stamped RR, with the power maintaining wheel that has a red bakelite base with three plastic adjuster wheels. I doubt this is original.
     
  23. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Gah! timed out.
    The last clock I mentioned was dated 3 53 and it's a brown Bakelite base with the August Schatz logo.
     
  24. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Frank -

    Sorry, I missed that for 12 52...I wrote 12-52 and that didn't help my search of the page. There is no RR on that clock.

    As for the clock dated 2 53, I guess I'm not paying enough attention to things as well as can't match things up in the guide. The plate looks like 1287 but there are no jewels. It also looks like 1283 but there's no RR on the plate. I can't find a plate with the Jahresuhrenfabrik 49 circle logo, NO (0) JEWELS stamp, no RR, and having the extra two holes above the NO (0) JEWELS stamp.

    Kurt
     
  25. jahresuhr

    jahresuhr Registered User
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    Martin,

    The method of assembly John outlined is correct. Are you a chapter 168 member? The current plan is to have a detailed article on Schatz clocks with compensating spring in the June 2018 issue of The Torsion Times, and information from original Schatz literature will appear there. The December 2017 issue now is about 70% complete. June 2018 is next. Perhaps it will even be on time!

    I have not paid attention to brass vs plastic adjusting discs, and will start to observe that. I have recorded the various markings on the underside of the base, and will look for patterns there also.

    A 3 53 clock with compensating spring and a three leveling screw base appear to me to be inconsistent, and most likely a marriage.

    I appreciate the help offered by all of your posts. I realize that we could be more focused if I write a summary of what I am looking for with the questions I post. So far, the 12 52 plate described has been a breakthrough. Will post more later.

    Frank
     
  26. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    FYI:
    I did a similar comparative analysis on the London Coach clock and arrived at the conclusion that the dates are not so much meant to relay a manufacturing date as they are to show the month in which some change occurred in the design of the clock.
    I have no reason to expect the 49 is different. It's these damn marriages that make it hard to discern.
     
  27. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, until someone can provide me a factory user guide or other instruction.
     
  28. jahresuhr

    jahresuhr Registered User
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    I am interested in Schatz clocks with compensating spring on the third wheel, and have observed some patterns. Here are my observations (all referring to movements with the compensating spring).

    Plate 1283 (with date), a non-jeweled movement was used in 2 53 and 3 53. The base with 2 leveling screws was used. These clocks did not have the carrying handle.

    Plate 1287 (2 jewels) was used starting 4 53. The 2 leveling screw base was still used, and this clock has the carrying handle.

    I have not yet seen a 5 53 clock.

    In 6 53, Plate 1287 continues. Apparently some 2 leveling screw bases were used up, and the 3 leveling screw base was introduced. These clocks have the carrying handle.

    This plate 1287 version has been found with the following dates 7 53, 9 53, 11 53, 12 53, 1 54, and 2 54.

    Plate 1291A (two jewels) was used in the months 7 53, 8 53, 9 53, and 10 53. (The month is included in the date.) These clocks do not have the carrying handle, and have a plate extender to make them look wider. There is an R after the 49 in the circle.

    I have not seen a Plate 1291, and would like to see a photo of this plate.

    Then Plate 1014 (2 jewels) continues this series. The carrying handle is included. Plate 1014 has been observed in the months 6 54, 7 54, 11 54, 3 55, 4 55, 7 55, and 11 55. These seem to be few and far between.

    All of the wide plates referenced above have the three extra holes in the back plate (2 of them are threaded).


    Anything that falls outside of these observations would be of interest to me.


    Some unanswered questions:


    Was 2 53 the first use of leveling screws? Perhaps there is an earlier clock with leveling screws.

    Was the 2 leveling screw base used before 2 53?

    Was the 3 leveling screw base used before 6 53?

    Does Plate 1283 exist exactly as shown in the Repair Guide without a date?

    There are some variations of the plates shown in the RG that should be recorded.


    I would also like to see photos of a clock and the back plate for Plate 1014B.


    Thank you for any additional information provided.

    Frank
     
  29. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Frank, I think this may be redundant information to what you already have but I decided to post it for you anyway. Here is a plate 1287, 2 jewel, compensating spring on 3rd wheel and a carrying handle marked 6 53.

    Also, I have been trying to find info on chapter 168. I was a member in 2000 but thought the chapter had ceased. Please tell me how to rejoin. Thank you!

    image000000 (4).jpg image000000 (3).jpg image000000 (5).jpg
     
  30. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Harry,

    I just received an application from John Hubby. I don't know how to attach it here so I'll try to send it to you in a PM.

    Eric
     
  31. jahresuhr

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    Harry,

    Thank you for posting your clock. It follows the patterns I have observed. The 6 53 production used both the 2 leveling screw base and the 3 leveling screw base.

    Frank
     
  32. shutterbug

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    FWIW, the compensating spring turned out to be a useless design and was abandoned. It is very hard to find springs for it now (they do break), and I have found that bypassing that function by solidifying the wheel has no effect on the clocks performance. I know that the purists don't agree with that methodology, but it does work ... and helps avoid buying a bunch of parts clocks.
     
  33. jahresuhr

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    At first, Schatz supplied replacement third wheels with barrels. There was also an aftermarket spring available. I have been told that no suitable replacement spring is available today. At least, when the arbor is affixed to the barrel, the clock will run and look correct.

    Frank
     
  34. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    I have only seen two Schatz clocks with the 3rd wheel maintaining power but both had unbroken springs so I was able to keep them original. I seem to remember several years ago on this board someone (probably John Hubby) had found a pocket watch mainspring that was a suitable replacement. I cannot find the post now and there is a distinct possibility that my memory is mistaken. I did make a note in my Repair Guide of the size of the 3rd wheel spring which is: .095" wide X .007" thick X 32.5 " long. Maybe someone familiar with sizing pocket watch springs could suggest a replacement. I am sure the spring end would have to be modified but it would be nice to be able to replace a broken spring and keep the clock as original as possible.
     
  35. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    I remember the post also, so I do not think you are mistaken.
     
  36. jahresuhr

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    #36 jahresuhr, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2019
    Some additional questions about Schatz clocks: Plate 1014B is similar to Plate 1208, which is marked Gutenbacher Uhrenfabrik. Clocks with Plate 1208 are seen occasionally, but I have not seen a clock with Plate 1014B. I would appreciate seeing photos of Plate 1014B along with photos of the front of the clock using this plate. Photos of other clocks with the cutouts shown in the back plate are also of interest.

    Frank
    Plate 1014B.jpg Plate 1208.jpg
     
  37. etmb61

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    Hi Frank,

    I have not recorded any plate 1014B clocks. I have recorded one plate 1028 "GUFA" clock, and one JUF clock with an unlisted plate similar to 1208 but with the circle JUF 49 stamp in place of the Gutenbacker 52 stamp. The JUF clock is dated 10 52 like plate 1014B. The clocks themselves are nearly identical other than their hands, dial markings, and the mentioned stamps. If you would like I'll PM the pictures I have to you.

    Eric
     
  38. jahresuhr

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    Eric,

    I have one similar to plate 1208 with the JUF 49 stamp you describe. It has the Gufa style arch and finials, but has Schatz on the dial. I would appreciate seeing your photos.

    Frank
     
  39. KurtinSA

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    Burkhard had a good explanation regarding the connection between Schatz and GUFA in this post:

    Schatz Clock

    Kurt
     
  40. jahresuhr

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    #40 jahresuhr, Mar 6, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    Two Schatz bases were pictured as figure 5 and figure 10 in the article Schatz Barrel-on-the-Third-Wheel 400-Day Clocks (The Torsion Times – Volume XXI No. 1, June 2018, pgs 10-28), These photos are included below. The first shows a base with two leveling screws known to be used in 2 53, and the second shows a base with three leveling screws known to be used in 6 53.

    I continue to seek information about the first use of leveling screws on bases by Schatz. Were leveling screws used by Schatz in bases on clocks made before 2 53? Of particular interest would be clocks with dates of 10 52, 11 52, 12 52, and 1 53. Would readers possessing August Schatz & Söhne or Jahresuhrenfabrik clocks with these dates post a response as to whether the bases contain leveling screws or not?

    One reason for this question is found in paragraph 62 in Section 18 Appendix of the Horolovar 400-Day Clock Repair Guide. This paragraph is referenced in the listing for plate 1208, Gutenbacher Uhrenfabrik, dated 1952. The paragraph mentions "change in the leveling screws," but at this time, I have no evidence that leveling screws were used on Schatz clocks in 1952.

    Thank you for any information you can provide.
    Frank


    Fig 05  DSC_0132 selected edit.jpg Fig 10  DSC_0380 selected 2 edit.jpg
     
  41. KurtinSA

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    Frank -

    Here's a review of my clocks and number of leveling feet:

    7 52 - 0
    10 52 - 0
    12 52 - 0
    1 53 - 0
    2 53 - 0
    3 53 - 2
    5 53 - 0 (movement missing parts but base, dial, pendulum colors match)
    7 53 - 0 (Chrome clock)
    11 53 - 3
    1 54 - 3
    2 54 - 3
    6 54 - 3
    11 54 - 3
    3 56 - 3
    3 57 - 3
    10 60 - 3

    More than you wanted, but I don't know what to make of the clock 3 53 with 2 leveling feet but several clocks after that with no leveling feet.

    Kurt
     
  42. jahresuhr

    jahresuhr Registered User
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    Kurt,

    Thank you for your detailed response. The Schatz "STAR" 400-Day Clock was advertised as having leveling screws, but it certainty is possible that Schatz used up old stock without leveling screws on clocks in other series even after the leveling screws were introduced. This might explain your 5 53 and 7 53 clocks without leveling screws.

    Frank
     
  43. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Nov 24, 2014
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    Frank -

    Can you expand on the "Star" clock?

    I was thinking about the stock situation. I've encountered this type of thing with BMW motorcycles back in the 60s and 70s. BMW would make design changes for model years but one cannot always count on the change to happen exactly at the model year change, typically between Aug and Sep of a given year. If the new parts were available and they ran out of older stock, they started using what they had...bikes have to roll off the line. Likewise, if older stock was left over, that could have made it on a "next year" motorcycle just to use up the stock.

    Kurt
     
  44. jahresuhr

    jahresuhr Registered User
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    Kurt,

    The Schatz "STAR" leaflet is reproduced in The Torsion Times – Volume XXI No. 1, June 2018, on pages 13 and 14.

    I also have an example of using up old stock from another hobby. The Ford Motor Company changed the style of the inside door handles and window riser cranks from that used on Ford Falcons in 1963 to a completely different style in 1964. The "standard" station wagons (bottom of the line station wagons) in 1964 used up old stock since these 1963 style parts were installed in 1964 "standard" station wagons.

    Frank
     
  45. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Nov 24, 2014
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    Thanks, Frank. I have two of the "Star" clocks - dated 11 53 and 1 54.

    Kurt
     
  46. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
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    For those that don't have access to TT, What is a "Star" clock?
     
  47. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Hi Martin,

    A "Star" clock is a standard Schatz 49 that came equiped with a drilled dome and loop handle, a jeweled escapement, a Nivarox suspension spring, and leveling screws.

    Eric
     
  48. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
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    Thanks, Eric.

    I'll have to check mine (If I can find them). I always just called them the "Two Jewel" version.
     
  49. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Frank -

    I acquired another Schatz clock at the Southern Ohio regional to add to the database. It's a narrow plate, plate 1291A (I think), and is model 49R Jahreuhrenfabrik Germany in the round logo. It's 2-jeweled, made 10 53, has three leveling feet, and has the third wheel maintaining power configuration. Also has "R R" stamped on the plate.

    Kurt
     

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