Some of the coolest clocks I've gotten

Darrmann39

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A full pull will only sound the repeat once, telling you the most recent hour and quarter. A full pull will only charge the alarm for one trip.
Exactly but how strange
 

Darrmann39

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Thanks, guys. The French still use contracted forms (sœur, bœuf, œil, et cetera) keeping the party going.

So, more or less, "Joseph Lucony made (it) in Rome in 1759"

When it's running, I'm curious to know what it rings out after 6:00, how much power is in a full pull of the chain, what all it does, etc.

Good luck with the restore!
A full pull gives you what the hour strike is
 

Betzel

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Thank you. [edit: re-reading Will's helpful post in #40, but still confused; it could just be me getting old-er] So, please forgive my curiosity, but if I understand correctly (for the Roman) the main arbor winds a (maybe?) 30 hour going spring, the rip cord will "activate" a strike sequence (but only on demand, and for the current hour and quarter, so it will not strike unless requested) and the strike train is itself powered by another spring inside the main barrel? And one pull will energize something to drive the alarm, and enables it?

Q1: Does it strike like a modern clock (e.g. 11 hours and 3 quarters at 11:45, then 12 hours at 12:00) or only up to six?
Q2: Can you set an alarm to occur more than six hours in the future? (Still don't understand the 6 hour thing on a 12 hour dial)
Q3: How is the alarm time set?
Q4: Is the alarm different sounding than the hour/quarter strike? What does it sound like when it goes off?
Q5: How would you disable a requested alarm after pulling the cord to just hear the time, say, at night?

If I ever saw one in a house museum somewhere, I would be shot for trying to figure it all out! :cool:
 
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Darrmann39

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Thank you. [edit: re-reading Will's helpful post in #40, but still confused; it could just be me getting old-er] So, please forgive my curiosity, but if I understand correctly (for the Roman) the main arbor winds a (maybe?) 30 hour going spring, the rip cord will "activate" a strike sequence (but only on demand, and for the current hour and quarter, so it will not strike unless requested) and the strike train is itself powered by another spring inside the main barrel? And one pull will energize something to drive the alarm, and enables it?

Q1: Does it strike like a modern clock (e.g. 11 hours and 3 quarters at 11:45, then 12 hours at 12:00) or only up to six?
Q2: Can you set an alarm to occur more than six hours in the future? (Still don't understand the 6 hour thing on a 12 hour dial)
Q3: How is the alarm time set?
Q4: Is the alarm different sounding than the hour/quarter strike? What does it sound like when it goes off?
Q5: How would you disable a requested alarm after pulling the cord to just hear the time, say, at night?

If I ever saw one in a house museum somewhere, I would be shot for trying to figure it all out! :cool:
Not sure of the sequence yet. I've got it apart. The alarm and strike strike the same bell so yes same sound.
I think one pull of alarm each time you want the alarm to work. The alarm time is set by dial in back of hands
 
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Jevan

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Probably wrong but:

The clock has three trains, the going train, the strike pull-repeat train and the alarm train and might well be described as a timepiece repeat with alarm.
The going train is wound by key and the other two spring powered trains are wound on demand with pull-cords.

The clock has six steps on its snail which means it can only ever strike a maximum of six hour blows, the correct quarter is selected using a pump arbor and depending upon its position it will pick up one, two or three pins sounding the quarter accordingly, often the quarters are sounded using both bells but it is difficult to tell from the images.

the strike train is itself powered by another spring inside the main barrel?
There is no other strike train other than the on demand repeat.

Q1: Does it strike like a modern clock (e.g. 11 hours and 3 quarters at 11:45, then 12 hours at 12:00) or only up to six?
It will strike normal quarters but only up to six on the hours, the sequence will then repeat itself striking one at seven o'clock etc.
In some early English clocks six hour striking is occasionally used in conjunction with long duration or complicated striking systems, this reduces the workload as less hammer blows are required.
I have seen examples described as double-six grande sonnerie striking.

Q2: Can you set an alarm to occur more than six hours in the future? (Still don't understand the 6 hour thing on a 12 hour dial)
The alarm can be set up to just under twelve hours in advance as the set-off lever acts against a friction fit pipe sitting on the hour pipe.

Q3: How is the alarm time set?
The alarm is set by aligning the chosen hour, on the dial mounted alarm setting disc, with a small pointer on the rear of the hour hand boss, the alarm setting disc is fixed to the friction fit pipe mentioned in Q2.

Q4: Is the alarm different sounding than the hour/quarter strike? What does it sound like when it goes off?
The alarm will sound rapidly and repeatedly on the lower larger bell until the spring is exhausted.
Some clocks have the ability to sound the alarm more than once with one pull wind, I don't think this clock has that ability.

Q5: How would you disable a requested alarm after pulling the cord to just hear the time, say, at night?
I think in this case once set the alarm must discharge although the alarm setting disc could be advanced to the current hour such that the alarm is activated and let to run out..
 

Jevan

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Q5: How would you disable a requested alarm after pulling the cord to just hear the time, say, at night?
I might have misunderstood this question in my reply above, the alarm is independent from the pull-repeat and would not have been set if pulling the repeat cord to hear the time.
 
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Darrmann39

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I might have misunderstood this question in my reply above, the alarm is independent from the pull-repeat and would not have been set if pulling the repeat cord to hear the time.
Great info thank you. I was very confused when I first heard the strike. Thought dang must be some pins missing on the strike wheel lol.
 

WIngraham

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I thought I explained it well enough. Jevan your explanation was much easier to follow.

I believe double six striking in descriptions refers to a repeat strike 2 mins after the hour or ribotta striking.

To me Italian clocks can be great examples of the individuality and craftsmanship that can be found in clocks. Reflective of the time and place they were made, and the needs they met.

Here is an example that strikes in twelve, but does ribotta striking in 6. Also half hour striking. I don't know about you but I would find that confusing lol. Would love to see how it is accomplished. (photo from E. Morpurgo's Dizionario).

20220722_122456.jpg

Will
 

Jevan

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In truth I have little experience with mainland European clocks and with apologies if it's been covered before in the forums but why would striking on the hour then again two minutes later be called double-six in particular as opposed to double-strike?

(#136) Joseph Knibb (sothebys.com)

1.JPG
 
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WIngraham

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Thats a good question. I have no idea. It was just my belief in what was meant when that was said. Since there is already a word for double striking, I am sure you are correct.

I've never seen it described like that before, I see what you mean now. Thank you
 
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Jevan

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Hi Will,

It is double-six in that it strikes one to six then repeats the sequence but as you say it's a Dutch striking clock rather than the example in my post which was grande sonnerie.
 
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WIngraham

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Jevan,

That makes sense now. Thank you. I just assumed double six meant it struck twice whereas it is just referring to the count system.

I have never seen a movement like that before, thank you for pointing it out. The craftsmanship is humbling. There is always something new to learn. I have a long way to go.

This is a good on topic read for those interested.
Double-six-Part-1.pdf (mayfieldbooks.co.uk)
 
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Jevan

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Will,

It seems to me that the primary reason double-six striking was used in your linked Christies clock was that Dutch striking could be achieved with relatively minor alteration to a standard eight day two train movement. The traditional 156 blows only becomes 168 blows per day with double-six Dutch strike yet business wise I imagine a Dutch striking clock would be a far greater asset.

Quoting from the Christies catalogue, "Joseph Knibb used his 'double-six' striking to preserve the power in the hour spring", which when translated means you buy a slightly more sophisticated half hour striking clock for twice the price… no fool was old Joseph Knibb. :)
 

Betzel

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Darrmann, I hope you're glad you bid competitively on the Roman. I sure am. Un freaking believable technical discussion and history lesson, so far. Take your sweet time restoring this...
 
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Elliott Wolin

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I got this longcase clock cheap at a thrift store (the ReStore). Some of the 100-year-old hide glue in the case gave out, and it needed a fair amount of cleaning/regluing/refinishing. The brass finials and other brass decorations were totally tarnished, and there were some minor broken parts. Fortunately, nothing was missing, and the movement was in pretty good shape (no real pivot wear, it probably hadn't run in ages), I just oiled it and it's been running for over a year. I think it dates to the early 20th century (no markings whatsoever).

A lot of work later:

20210924_163458.jpg
 
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Darrmann39

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Darrmann, I hope you're glad you bid competitively on the Roman. I sure am. Un freaking believable technical discussion and history lesson, so far. Take your sweet time restoring this...
I am sure am. Here it is so far. Have the bottom rebuilt working my way up. Have the top molding I'll duplicate along with the small ¼" one's running around in 3 spots.

20220722_162357.jpg
 

Darrmann39

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Its a great clock, looks like it is in good hands. Please post a pic after you have gotten it back together.
I've gotten the case 90%compete and back together. Only thing left is the top molding and verneer top edge then small molding. Duplicated small molding and replaced all.

20220726_154855.jpg
 
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Darrmann39

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Thanks, guys. The French still use contracted forms (sœur, bœuf, œil, et cetera) keeping the party going.

So, more or less, "Joseph Lucony made (it) in Rome in 1759"

When it's running, I'm curious to know what it rings out after 6:00, how much power is in a full pull of the chain, what all it does, etc.

Good luck with the restore!
It repeats starting at 1. Here's a pic of the strike wheel. Six pins on one side and three ascending ones on other side for quarter hour. Amazingly advanced for the time check out the ratchet gears. For all the people who don't like shiny pass on the comments lol just admire the amazing technology of 1759

20220730_152400.jpg 20220730_152337.jpg 20220730_152333.jpg 20220730_152318.jpg 20220730_152312.jpg 20220730_152244.jpg
 
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Betzel

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Interesting, and thanks. Very clean is okay, but I'll leave shiny or removal of original material alone ;-)

The historical Roman clocks, I am sure made for church work, were really six hour clocks, as the dials only had six hour indicators, so there were four cycles of six hours in one 24 hour day. Thinking about it, it's only slightly different to change to a twelve hour system that needs to turn through twice a day, which we all think of as normal - like our native languages. Really, we're living in a 24 hour world based loosely on the solar day. This is shown on some 24 hour wristwatches with no minute hand...

So, this clock has a 12-hour dial, but (If I have it right) continued to use an older 6-hour strike and alarm mechanism from days gone by?

I am not understanding the 1:00 or repeat reference very well. So, when you get it back together, what does the passing (Okay, there is no passing strike, so it has to be requested via the repeat function) hour strike sound like when the dial indicates 7:00? etc. Does it only ring once?
 

Jevan

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Betzel

On pulling the repeat cord:

From 6.45 the hour strikes 6, the quarter strikes 3
From 7.00 the hour strikes 1, the quarters don't strike
From 7.15 the hour strikes 1, the quarter strikes 1
From 7.30 the hour strikes 1, the quarter strikes 2
From 7.45 the hour strikes 1, the quarter strikes 3
From 8.00 the hour strikes 2, the quarter don't strike
 
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Betzel

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Jevan: thought so, but was not sure. That makes it RMN "perfectly clear!" Thanks!
 

Jevan

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Betzel

Off topic and only for amusement but have you come across the "Roman Striking" system in early English pendulum clocks where a low tone bell depicts five and a high tone bell represents one… seven o'clock would be a low tone bell followed by two high tone bells.

It's primary purpose was to reduce the amount of blows required which is visually demonstrated on the main chapter ring which had a two blow IV rather than the traditional four blows of IIII… but then we get into the whole why is it normally IIII anyway debate :)

Joseph Knibb was known for using this system.

 

Betzel

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Hi. Nope, I have not. That's an interesting piece (dial, etc.) though. Thanks.

I'm always fascinated how we went from sun -> dial -> sand in glass -> escapements -> Cesium decay. All part of the fun, eh?

With 4 x 6 hour cycles in a church "daily" cycle to maritime watches onboard a ship (which I don't know much about) I wonder if there's any relationship in the way the various strikes were/are made?
 
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Darrmann39

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Hi. Nope, I have not. That's an interesting piece (dial, etc.) though. Thanks.

I'm always fascinated how we went from sun -> dial -> sand in glass -> escapements -> Cesium decay. All part of the fun, eh?

With 4 x 6 hour cycles in a church "daily" cycle to maritime watches onboard a ship (which I don't know much about) I wonder if there's any relationship in the way the various strikes were/are made?
Ships clocks are a whole different system repeating itself every 4 hours and is quite easy to get used to once you know it.
 

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Ralph

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Betzel

Off topic and only for amusement but have you come across the "Roman Striking" system in early English pendulum clocks where a low tone bell depicts five and a high tone bell represents one… seven o'clock would be a low tone bell followed by two high tone bells.

It's primary purpose was to reduce the amount of blows required which is visually demonstrated on the main chapter ring which had a two blow IV rather than the traditional four blows of IIII… but then we get into the whole why is it normally IIII anyway debate :)

Joseph Knibb was known for using this system.

I don't understand the two blows for IV. I would think it would be 4 high tones. Regardless, a side note, in that you can tell when a Joseph Knibb clock is using a Roman Strike movement by looking at the dial. A Roman Striking clock will have the 4 on the dial represented as IIII, instead of IV.

Ralph
 

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The dog watch ensures that the same watch crew does not work the same time each day. There are 5 watches with three of four hours and two of two hours.

There is a variant on the Roman clock that uses a silent escapement and a candle to illuminate the dial. The story is that the first were made at some Pope's request and they are often called Papal Clocks. When we were looking at the owner's collection of these he said the he and another collector owned all the known examples.
 

Darrmann39

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The dog watch ensures that the same watch crew does not work the same time each day. There are 5 watches with three of four hours and two of two hours.

There is a variant on the Roman clock that uses a silent escapement and a candle to illuminate the dial. The story is that the first were made at some Pope's request and they are often called Papal Clocks. When we were looking at the owner's collection of these he said the he and another collector owned all the known examples.
Wow
 

Jevan

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I don't understand the two blows for IV. I would think it would be 4 high tones.

The hours are sounded as if directly reading the chapter-ring Roman numerals therefore IV is represented by a high tone bell followed by a low tone bell and similarly IX is represented by a high tone bell followed by two low tone bells.

Power conservation is the main reason for Roman strike which is why the IV is altered from the more traditional IIII in order to further decrease the amount of blows needed, the normal 156 blows for 12 hour strike is reduced to 30 blows for Roman strike.
 

Darrmann39

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Thanks, guys. The French still use contracted forms (sœur, bœuf, œil, et cetera) keeping the party going.

So, more or less, "Joseph Lucony made (it) in Rome in 1759"

When it's running, I'm curious to know what it rings out after 6:00, how much power is in a full pull of the chain, what all it does, etc.

Good luck with the restore!
Here's the strike video.
7 o'clock will strike 1 time.
 

Betzel

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Awesome. The clock sounds great, but you're quite the romanesque humming dinger! ;-)

I still wonder why they married 12 hours going to 6 hours striking...maybe the going was an easy modernization on what was essentially a stable and known six-hour platform for so many years? I may never know...
 

Darrmann39

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Awesome. The clock sounds great, but you're quite the romanesque humming dinger! ;-)

I still wonder why they married 12 hours going to 6 hours striking...maybe the going was an easy modernization on what was essentially a stable and known six-hour platform for so many years? I may never know...
The setup was one of the hardest ones I've had to figure out how to set up. Basically pulling the string letting it run with strike rack off until you here the correct strikes hold the string so it stops and place the rack at stop.. it stops because there's no more gears and more flat rack. It's not a 2 part system.

Screenshot_20220802-162403_Gallery.jpg
 

Darrmann39

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The stick clock is nice - and if original are fairly rare (see below). The Japanese divided daylight into six periods, and darkness into six. As the seasons progress these periods change in length ( unless you live on the equator). So regularly the Japanese would move the "hour" markers on their clocks to compensate for the shifts.
When they changed over to the Western time model (1868 ), to ensure compliance it became a capital offence to own a traditional clock. So original Japanese clocks that still exist were mostly exported from Japan before then.
As RM says, there is a lot of information available.
Finally got it cleaned up. Turned out nice. Waiting for glass to be made as they were all cracked and the front was plexiglass

20220807_121407.jpg 20220807_121413.jpg 20220806_173004.jpg 20220807_121428.jpg 20220807_121438.jpg 20220807_121425.jpg 20220805_160741.jpg
 
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PatH

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What a difference! Does the movement work and strike now? I've only seen the movements where the foliot is raised/exposed on top of the movement, almost like balance scale arms, rather than sort of recessed in the round part on your clock. If you ever make it to the NAWCC Museum, there is an interesting Asian horology gallery with examples of various timepieces.
 
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Darrmann39

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What a difference! Does the movement work and strike now? I've only seen the movements where the foliot is raised/exposed on top of the movement, almost like balance scale arms, rather than sort of recessed in the round part on your clock. If you ever make it to the NAWCC Museum, there is an interesting Asian horology gallery with examples of various timepieces.
I'm loving it. Yes everything works. I have no idea how the strike really works because it's not the basic 1,2,3,4 etc.
But it all works
 
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Darrmann39

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What a difference! Does the movement work and strike now? I've only seen the movements where the foliot is raised/exposed on top of the movement, almost like balance scale arms, rather than sort of recessed in the round part on your clock. If you ever make it to the NAWCC Museum, there is an interesting Asian horology gallery with examples of various timepieces.
It's a basic hairspring. Has a jewel in front to get beat set. When it's in center with no power you got it. Has the same pin to hold hairspring as all clocks of the time had.
Also some tiny counter weights to make slower and faster

20220806_110750.jpg 20220806_110754.jpg 20220805_160801.jpg 20220805_160741.jpg
 
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Ralph

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The hours are sounded as if directly reading the chapter-ring Roman numerals therefore IV is represented by a high tone bell followed by a low tone bell and similarly IX is represented by a high tone bell followed by two low tone bells.

<snip>
As I mentioned earlier, Knibb on his Roman Striking clocks, indicated Roman numeral 4 as IIII, not IV on his dials.

Ralph
]
I don't understand the two blows for IV. I would think it would be 4 high tones. Regardless, a side note, in that you can tell when a Joseph Knibb clock is using a Roman Strike movement by looking at the dial. A Roman Striking clock will have the 4 on the dial represented as IIII, instead of IV.

Ralph
Jevon corrected my thinking on the Roman Striking on Knibb’s clocks. While rereading this posting I noticed I incorrectly stated Knibb’s dial indication for 5 . I must been having a bad day. IV is used for 5 o’clock on the RS clocks, not IIII.

Duhhh!!

Ralph
 

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