Some Longines Repair Questions

John Hinkey

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Hi John,


The barrel is the first wheel, the centre is the second, then on down the train to the escape.



This is the fourth wheel and the extended arbor is indeed bent. It can be straightened but it needs care and the best way is in a lathe, but leave it be for now.



The jewels are meant to be shrouded like that, the escape teeth should be centred on the jewels and never touch the metal pallet frame.



The tips look flattened but you'll have to live with that as you haven't the tools to fix it. The impulse jewel is slightly out of upright, but again, leave it for now.

Regards,

Graham
Thanks Graham.
I'm going to check out the impulse jewel a bit more as it could be an optical effect. I have donor movements here and one or two more coming and I can compare the pallet jewels against those. As you suggested, I will install a new mainspring and do an initial install and lubrication and see how it runs.
I'll be cleaning these again and the balance wheel and spring will be cleaned for the first time now that I have some one-dip-like cleaner.

- John
 

John Hinkey

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Go back and check your escape wheel pinion. It doesn't look well at all. Looks like a broken leaf there.
I think the pinion teeth are just dirty and needs some cleaning attention. I'm going to individually clean all the wheels again under magnification with a brush and then re-inspect them to see what was dirt and what was wear and tear.

Thanks -

John
 

John Hinkey

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Also, is it safe to leave the pallet jewels and the roller jewel in L&R111 for extended periods of time to give some of this stuff a chance to dissolve?
Also, also ( :) ) what is an alternative rinse for L&R111 since I did not buy the expensive L&R rinse solution?
Thanks -
John
 

karlmansson

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Also, is it safe to leave the pallet jewels and the roller jewel in L&R111 for extended periods of time to give some of this stuff a chance to dissolve?
Also, also ( :) ) what is an alternative rinse for L&R111 since I did not buy the expensive L&R rinse solution?
Thanks -
John
L&R 111 is ammoniated and I would not leave parts in it to soak. Use it only for the duration recommended by L&R and then rinse. As I mentioned earlier: you will need to remove resin formed oils mechanically.
I use napththa as a first rinse for my L&R cleaner but the real L&R rinse as my final rinse.

I also pretty positive that roughbarked is right about the broken pinion leaf. Look below:

CE1F42A9-3959-45C8-BF61-026CF1D3159E.jpeg
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

Karl is quite right, that pinion leaf is definitely cracked. How that could have happened down at this end of the train is hard to guess.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Hinkey

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L&R 111 is ammoniated and I would not leave parts in it to soak. Use it only for the duration recommended by L&R and then rinse. As I mentioned earlier: you will need to remove resin formed oils mechanically.
I use napththa as a first rinse for my L&R cleaner but the real L&R rinse as my final rinse.

I also pretty positive that roughbarked is right about the broken pinion leaf. Look below:

View attachment 706291
Boy, I've looked at this every which way under higher magnification and I think you are seeing left over debris that is still stuck on. I cleaned more gunk off and I don't see anything wrong with the leaf on the pinion. Pictures to come.

Also, I did a few of my own experiments with L&R111 applied to some glass surfaces and either left to evaporate on its own or it evaporates and then having a Naptha rinse applied to see what's left over. Thick layer of oily residue left over if left to evaporate on its own, but just a slight oily film if subsequently rinsed with Naptha. Either way it's no good - i.e., Naptha is OK, but not the best for a post-cleaning rinse with L&R111.
So it looks like I'll be getting a gallon of expensive L&R rinse.

Thanks -

John
 

John Hinkey

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Guesswork isn't science so I'd go with giving it a good cleanup and examination but it looks like it is possible that there may have been some rust of the pinion.
Yes, there is still lots of crud left over on this part - it will get another thorough cleaning. I've not manually cleaned the wheels yet - just a few minutes in Naptha, L&R111, then Naptha rinse which got 90% of the stuff off, but a mechanical cleaning is needed for sure.

- John
 

John Hinkey

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More images of the escape wheel pinion leaves . . . don't see any cracks, it appears to me it's just the way it's made.
Still lots of junk stuck between the pinion leaves and misc. other spots:
1650603571884.jpeg
1650603595235.jpeg
1650603629237.jpeg
I'll compare this one to one from a donor movement sometime this weekend.

- John
 

svenedin

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Excellent though the pictures are, I think we’re seeing the wrong side of the escape wheel to comment on the condition of the pinion.

Naphta is not a good rinse. As you mentioned, it leaves an oily film. This will encourage oils/greases you apply after reassembly to spread away from parts that should be lubricated. Isopropyl alcohol may be an alternative rinse. For parts with shellacked jewels (pallet fork, balance impulse stone) you run the risk of the shellac dissolving in alcohol. You can use the one-dip you ordered for those parts instead.
 
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gmorse

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Hi John,
Thick layer of oily residue left over if left to evaporate on its own, but just a slight oily film if subsequently rinsed with Naptha.
Naphta is not a good rinse. As you mentioned, it leaves an oily film. This will encourage oils/greases you apply after reassembly to spread away from parts that should be lubricated. Isopropyl alcohol may be an alternative rinse.
I think what you're seeing is the soap components of the cleaner, which are like an emulsion in the base solvents. This is why at least two rinses in different containers are recommended to remove all traces of the cleaner. Also, if your naphtha is leaving an oily film, then it may not the same as the one I use; not all 'naphthas' are created equal! The types sold as lighter fuel, ('Swan', 'Ronson', 'Zippo', etc), seem to be rather more pure than others intended for different purposes. Mechanical agitation of some sort, whether it's in a traditional oscillating watch cleaning machine, ultrasonic, brushing, or pegging out, is an essential part of the process.

I use L&R 566 (which is non-ammoniated), and their Ultrasonic Watch Rinse for most cleaning in the ultrasonic, but I do use the lighter fuel for spot and manual cleaning. I don't know whether the manufacturers specify that the cleaner should be shaken up before decanting into the tank/containers, but I've found that it does help. The point about the rinse is that it's basically the same solvent as the cleaner but without the soaps and other cleaning additives. If IPA is used, it should be as pure as possible, 99.9% if you can obtain it, and again, don't just stop at a single rinse.

Stephen is quite right about seeing only the rivet side of that escape pinion, it would be extremely uncommon to see a cracked leaf inside the wheel rivet, unless the wheel had been taken off and re-riveted. We really need to see some equally good images of the pinion leaves on the other side.

Regards,

Graham
 
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karlmansson

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More images of the escape wheel pinion leaves . . . don't see any cracks, it appears to me it's just the way it's made.
Still lots of junk stuck between the pinion leaves and misc. other spots:
View attachment 706386
View attachment 706387
View attachment 706388
I'll compare this one to one from a donor movement sometime this weekend.

- John
Is this the side we saw in the previous images? If so, it could be that an attempt has been made to rivet the wheel onto the pinion and the leaf snapped at the mounting end. While not ideal you may still have a working pinion if the rest of the pinion is okay. Look at it from the other end as previously suggested.

Napththa is an excellent rinse! In fact more than 90% of the weight by volume of the L&R rinse is naphtha. But different naphthas have different compositions and some are more volatile than others, that’s why I use the L&R rinse in my final rinse.

One dip is something I would steer clear of entirely. It’s tri- and tetrachloroethylene, about as bad as organic solvents get nowadays. Absolutely do not use it unless you have an active exchange of air around you. One deep breath around it and you will likely get a lasting headache. Which is telling for what it does to the myelin in you brain.
 

svenedin

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Is this the side we saw in the previous images? If so, it could be that an attempt has been made to rivet the wheel onto the pinion and the leaf snapped at the mounting end. While not ideal you may still have a working pinion if the rest of the pinion is okay. Look at it from the other end as previously suggested.



Napththa is an excellent rinse! In fact more than 90% of the weight by volume of the L&R rinse is naphtha. But different naphthas have different compositions and some are more volatile than others, that’s why I use the L&R rinse in my final rinse.

One dip is something I would steer clear of entirely. It’s tri- and tetrachloroethylene, about as bad as organic solvents get nowadays. Absolutely do not use it unless you have an active exchange of air around you. One deep breath around it and you will likely get a lasting headache. Which is telling for what it does to the myelin in you brain.
Ah. I stand corrected. I use Essence of Renata which is a highly refined, volatile hydrocarbon solvent which smells rather like Coleman fuel or Aspen 4T (I also collect petrol pressure stoves and lamps). I only use it for the balance (degreasing hairsprings) and balance jewels. I did not know the composition of "One dip". Regarding lighter fuel I suppose it depends how narrow a fraction of hydrocarbons it is composed of. If it has the volatile light fractions AND some of the heavier fractions it will leave an oily film after the volatile fractions have evaporated. You are absolutely correct to be concerned about certain solvents. The watchmakers of old (like my grandfather and great grandfather) used horrible chemicals including benzene and did themselves no end of harm. Both my ancestors died earlier than they should have probably as a result of the chemicals they used so casually!
 
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John Hinkey

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Excellent though the pictures are, I think we’re seeing the wrong side of the escape wheel to comment on the condition of the pinion.

Naphta is not a good rinse. As you mentioned, it leaves an oily film. This will encourage oils/greases you apply after reassembly to spread away from parts that should be lubricated. Isopropyl alcohol may be an alternative rinse. For parts with shellacked jewels (pallet fork, balance impulse stone) you run the risk of the shellac dissolving in alcohol. You can use the one-dip you ordered for those parts instead.
This is the same side of the escape wheel that people thought they saw cracks in the pinion leaf, but as you can see it looks like this is the manufacturing process from 1878 or so when this movement was made. I'll confirm with another escape wheel from my donor movements.
 

John Hinkey

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Excellent though the pictures are, I think we’re seeing the wrong side of the escape wheel to comment on the condition of the pinion.

Naphta is not a good rinse. As you mentioned, it leaves an oily film. This will encourage oils/greases you apply after reassembly to spread away from parts that should be lubricated. Isopropyl alcohol may be an alternative rinse. For parts with shellacked jewels (pallet fork, balance impulse stone) you run the risk of the shellac dissolving in alcohol. You can use the one-dip you ordered for those parts instead.
No, the Naptha I've been using does not leave an oily residue, it's the oily residue left from the L&R111 even after a Naptha rinse that I was referring to.
I like Naptha for general cleaning so far, but it doesn't get the really stuck on stuff off like the L&R111 did, but the L&R111 needs a dedicated rinse other than straight Naptha - I bought the L&R #3 rinse last night and will get it early next week.
 

John Hinkey

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Here is the pinion side:
1650640000333.jpeg
needs further cleaning for sure as there is "stuff" in the nooks and crannies that did not get removed by naptha bath + L&R111 soaking.
The pinion leaf surfaces appear to be damaged, but it's just deposits that have not come off yet.

- J
 

karlmansson

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Ah. I stand corrected. I use Essence of Renata which is a highly refined, volatile hydrocarbon solvent which smells rather like Coleman fuel or Aspen 4T (I also collect petrol pressure stoves and lamps). I only use it for the balance (degreasing hairsprings) and balance jewels. I did not know the composition of "One dip". Regarding lighter fuel I suppose it depends how narrow a fraction of hydrocarbons it is composed of. If it has the volatile light fractions AND some of the heavier fractions it will leave an oily film after the volatile fractions have evaporated. You are absolutely correct to be concerned about certain solvents. The watchmakers of old (like my grandfather and great grandfather) used horrible chemicals including benzene and did themselves no end of harm. Both my ancestors died earlier than they should have probably as a result of the chemicals they used so casually!
Not so sure what practical uses benzene would have in watchmaking but it is often confused with benzine, which is the trade name for heptane. Heptane, while nasty to breathe in, is less of a health hazard compared to tetrachloroethylene (One dip). So I suspect you might be breathing in chemicals on par with what you ancestors did if you are using it regularly.
 

karlmansson

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Here is the pinion side:
View attachment 706403
needs further cleaning for sure as there is "stuff" in the nooks and crannies that did not get removed by naptha bath + L&R111 soaking.
The pinion leaf surfaces appear to be damaged, but it's just deposits that have not come off yet.

- J
Yes, as has been mentioned several times now, you cannot count on the cleaning fluids alone to do the job. You need to mechanically clean out the pinion leaves with a shaped piece of peg wood if there’s resin formed oil in there. The cleaners won’t touch it, at most they will soften it. A good ultrasonic can sometimes chip it and lift it but that doesn’t always work either. The oil has polymerized and is more like a plastic than oil at this point.
 
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svenedin

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Not so sure what practical uses benzene would have in watchmaking but it is often confused with benzine, which is the trade name for heptane. Heptane, while nasty to breathe in, is less of a health hazard compared to tetrachloroethylene (One dip). So I suspect you might be breathing in chemicals on par with what you ancestors did if you are using it regularly.
No I mean Benzene as I said (cyclohexatriene). It was used historically as a watch cleaning solvent and is no longer used as it is a carcinogen.
 

John Hinkey

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Yes, as has been mentioned several times now, you cannot count on the cleaning fluids alone to do the job. You need to mechanically clean out the pinion leaves with a shaped piece of peg wood if there’s resin formed oil in there. The cleaners won’t touch it, at most they will soften it. A good ultrasonic can sometimes chip it and lift it but that doesn’t always work either. The oil has polymerized and is more like a plastic than oil at this point.
I have also found that brushing with cleaning fluid (naptha or L&R111, etc.) with a very small stiff-hair painting brush while viewing under magnification does wonders too.
I have some pegwood blocks coming early next week for just this purpose - holding parts while gently mechanically cleaning them.

Next week I should have:
  • L&R rinsing solution
  • Replacement main spring
  • 4 donor movements to grab parts from or at least compare with to see if my movement parts need replacing
  • Pithwood blocks
My plan is to do a final cleaning of all the parts. Compare them to donor movement parts to see if they need replacing/repair. Do a trial assembly and oiling. Then see if I can get the movement to run reasonably well. If so I will move on to restoring the dial, hands, case, and getting a new crystal installed.

There is a chance that I can fix that broken jewel by replacing the entire bridge with one from the donor movements. We'll see.
 
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John Hinkey

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While waiting on my pithwood blocks to arrive, today I received the L&R #3 rinsing solution and another super inexpensive donor movement purchased from Etsy.
1650947659440.jpeg
it's truly a parts movement as it shows lots of abuse - the balance is broken, the balance spring is messed up, and it's pretty dirty.
Quickly pulled it apart and found there was no mainspring and whomever had worked on this messed up the barrel cap alignment:
1650947931492.jpeg
The escape wheel main plate side pivot is gone, the wheel with the seconds shaft is missing the seconds shaft, and one of the jewels on the train bridge is cracked:
1650948414352.jpeg
fortunately the donor cracked jewel is not the same one I need. So eventually there is hope that the good jewel on this movement can be transplanted to my heirloom movement, but that will wait for some other future day.

So this movement is good to replace the click (mine is a bit weak), broken screws (one of mine was split in half), and potentially a jewel or two. Oh and the pallet looks pretty good on this one.

Still waiting for that mainspring from CousinsUK.
 

John Hinkey

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OK, got my pithwood (Esslinger)) and replacement spring (from CousinsUK) and my L&R rinsing solution (Amazon).
Time to do a final cleaning in Naptha, L&R 111, the L&R #3, see what, if any parts I want to swap out from my donor movements (and clean those) and do an assembly/oiling and see how it runs. The only part I have not cleaned yet is the balance/balance spring assembly, but I have the one-dip equivalent for that.

I did do a final cleaning of the pallet and escape wheel last night and boy some of that stuff would only come off with extremely careful scraping with a micro-screw driver under high magnification. As Graham said this old old stuff just won't dissolve in any reasonable time.

More pictures to come.

- J
 

John Hinkey

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Ah, the final cleaning. Ran everything through L&R111 and then L&R#3. Looked good.
Then I used the one-dip kind of stuff on the balance and balance spring and it cleaned up quite a bit, through there is some very small stuff still stuck onto the hairspring:
1651213543241.jpeg
1651213565205.jpeg
is that good enough, especially for my first pocket watch rebuild?

- John
 

svenedin

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Hairpring looks good. All flat and coils are even. There is a bit of rust on the inner coils. Not much you can do. Should be ok but it may suddenly fail with corrosion cracking. What do the balance staff pivots look like and the impulse jewel?
 

John Hinkey

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Hairpring looks good. All flat and coils are even. There is a bit of rust on the inner coils. Not much you can do. Should be ok but it may suddenly fail with corrosion cracking. What do the balance staff pivots look like and the impulse jewel?
The pivots look very good. The impulse jewel may be very slightly tipped outward radially, but it's very slight if at all. I'll take some more pics tomorrow/this weekend.

Thanks -

John
 

gmorse

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Hi John,
Then I used the one-dip kind of stuff on the balance and balance spring and it cleaned up quite a bit, through there is some very small stuff still stuck onto the hairspring:
Yes, the corrosion is there and you have to live with that. You could try using a fine, soft brush with the one-dip to loosen some of the stubborn dust specks, but otherwise I'd try it like that. As Stephen says, the important parts are the pivots and the impulse jewel.

Regards,

Graham
 

karlmansson

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OK, got my pithwood (Esslinger)) and replacement spring (from CousinsUK) and my L&R rinsing solution (Amazon).
Time to do a final cleaning in Naptha, L&R 111, the L&R #3, see what, if any parts I want to swap out from my donor movements (and clean those) and do an assembly/oiling and see how it runs. The only part I have not cleaned yet is the balance/balance spring assembly, but I have the one-dip equivalent for that.

I did do a final cleaning of the pallet and escape wheel last night and boy some of that stuff would only come off with extremely careful scraping with a micro-screw driver under high magnification. As Graham said this old old stuff just won't dissolve in any reasonable time.

More pictures to come.

- J
Please don't use screwdrivers for cleaning. This is where the sticks of pegwood comes into play. Since you only mention the pithwood I'm thinking you didn't order any pegwood this time around.

Also keep in mind that for every revolution of a pivot in a cracked jewel, that jewel has the chance to act like a graver and shrear the pivot off. So be very carful with running a movement with broken jewels. I never quite got your plan of attack: do you plan to replace the plates with the broken jewels and implant donor parts or are you looking to replace the jewels in the original bridges? These are rubbed in jewels and are quite involved to replace with original parts. Some watchmakers replace them with friction fit jewels, although that does alter the watch in a permanent way that some claim robs it of its autenticity.

Regards
Karl
 

John Hinkey

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Please don't use screwdrivers for cleaning. This is where the sticks of pegwood comes into play. Since you only mention the pithwood I'm thinking you didn't order any pegwood this time around.

Also keep in mind that for every revolution of a pivot in a cracked jewel, that jewel has the chance to act like a graver and shrear the pivot off. So be very carful with running a movement with broken jewels. I never quite got your plan of attack: do you plan to replace the plates with the broken jewels and implant donor parts or are you looking to replace the jewels in the original bridges? These are rubbed in jewels and are quite involved to replace with original parts. Some watchmakers replace them with friction fit jewels, although that does alter the watch in a permanent way that some claim robs it of its autenticity.

Regards
Karl
Thanks Karl -

Based on some input from Graham regarding the cracked jewel, my plan is to get it back together and get it running as-is since the crack was not too bad (I assume meaning there's just a crack and no chips). I have two donor movements that a jewel can be pressed out of, but that's beyond my capabilities, so would need to send the bridge and donor bridges out to someone else with no guarantee that I'll get a bridge back with a working jewel. Fortunately there seems to be many of these vintage movements out there (most in bad shape) to donate replacement jewels.
This watch will not be used everyday so it's OK to replace the jewel later on at the risk of taking it apart again.

I could not get the pegwood tip to be thin/pointed enough or stiff enough to get the really stuck on stuff off, so I used the finest 0.8mm screwdriver very very very very carefully to scrape off non-brass parts. No other option worked - pushing pinion gears into pithwood did not get rid of everything on some pinion leaves AND the pallet is an odd shape with really caked on stuff that would not come off after repeated naptha and L&R baths + a fine brushing. I even used Acetone on some of the metal-only (non jewel) parts that had stuck on hard deposits and that didn't get rid of the stuff either. Mechanical removal was the only option.
You do what you must do and I did not damage anything. I need to make a very fine tipped brass pick for some of this hard stuff removal as opposed to the screwdriver.

The pegwood was great for soft sticky stuff on on pivot jewels, but not for unsticking hard caked on deposits.

Hence my problem with the balance hairspring - there appears to be hard caked on deposits left over on the spring and I was wondering how to get those off w/o damaging the spring or the balance. Two quick soakings in one-dip kind of stuff did not remove these.

Should I try putting the balance+balance spring in L&R111 & L&R rinse to try to get this stuff off the spring?

Thanks -

John
 
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Chris Radek

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The L&R fluids are perfectly safe to use on balance, hairspring, lever, shellac, etc etc. I have bought one-dip twice in about 30 years and never found any use for it, except evaporating into my shop air for me to breathe.

I put every balance and hairspring through the the ultrasonic cleaning machine with the L&R fluids. It runs a few minutes in each jar, I never soak parts in it.
 
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svenedin

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The L&R fluids are perfectly safe to use on balance, hairspring, lever, shellac, etc etc. I have bought one-dip twice in about 30 years and never found any use for it, except evaporating into my shop air for me to breathe.

I put every balance and hairspring through the the ultrasonic cleaning machine with the L&R fluids. It runs a few minutes in each jar, I never soak parts in it.
Chris, have you ever had issues with hairspring pins or balance screws falling out in the ultrasonic on older watches?
 

Chris Radek

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Loose screws and parts will definitely fall out. However, if they fall out in the ultrasonic, they were too loose and also in danger of falling out in the running watch.

Dial screws and hairspring stud screws will all fall out if they're left loose. I screw these in all the way before putting the parts through the machine so they stay in place. If you don't have a machine with a heated dryer with strong air flow/spin, it might be better to take them out, because you want to make sure they dry.
 

John Hinkey

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The L&R fluids are perfectly safe to use on balance, hairspring, lever, shellac, etc etc. I have bought one-dip twice in about 30 years and never found any use for it, except evaporating into my shop air for me to breathe.

I put every balance and hairspring through the the ultrasonic cleaning machine with the L&R fluids. It runs a few minutes in each jar, I never soak parts in it.
I don't have an ultrasonic, so it would be a short soak in a glass jar with some very mild swishing of the fluid around.

- J
 

karlmansson

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Thanks Karl -

Based on some input from Graham regarding the cracked jewel, my plan is to get it back together and get it running as-is since the crack was not too bad (I assume meaning there's just a crack and no chips). I have two donor movements that a jewel can be pressed out of, but that's beyond my capabilities, so would need to send the bridge and donor bridges out to someone else with no guarantee that I'll get a bridge back with a working jewel. Fortunately there seems to be many of these vintage movements out there (most in bad shape) to donate replacement jewels.
This watch will not be used everyday so it's OK to replace the jewel later on at the risk of taking it apart again.

I could not get the pegwood tip to be thin/pointed enough or stiff enough to get the really stuck on stuff off, so I used the finest 0.8mm screwdriver very very very very carefully to scrape off non-brass parts. No other option worked - pushing pinion gears into pithwood did not get rid of everything on some pinion leaves AND the pallet is an odd shape with really caked on stuff that would not come off after repeated naptha and L&R baths + a fine brushing. I even used Acetone on some of the metal-only (non jewel) parts that had stuck on hard deposits and that didn't get rid of the stuff either. Mechanical removal was the only option.
You do what you must do and I did not damage anything. I need to make a very fine tipped brass pick for some of this hard stuff removal as opposed to the screwdriver.

The pegwood was great for soft sticky stuff on on pivot jewels, but not for unsticking hard caked on deposits.

Hence my problem with the balance hairspring - there appears to be hard caked on deposits left over on the spring and I was wondering how to get those off w/o damaging the spring or the balance. Two quick soakings in one-dip kind of stuff did not remove these.

Should I try putting the balance+balance spring in L&R111 & L&R rinse to try to get this stuff off the spring?

Thanks -

John
I would suggest filing a rod of brass into a wedge shape if the peg wood isn’t cutting it.

I’m afraid you’ll have a hard time pressing these jewels out. From all the photos you’ve posted I think they are rubbed in. That means opening up the setting in such a way that it can can then be closed again. You can do this with a polished burnisher in a watchmakers lathe on a faceplate or you need a set of specialized jewelling tools with angled jaws. They look a bit like a fine hand vise with conical tips.
 

karlmansson

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So you think it's OK if I put it together with this very cracked jewel:
View attachment 705541
View attachment 705542
and if it runs OK leave it as is? I have a couple of donor movements that I can get a replacement jewel from (I'd have someone else replace the jewel as it's beyond my current capabilities). It takes very little time to pull the bridge off to get it repaired.

I suppose there is victory in getting a new mainspring installed, movement back together and running well as the sterling silver case needs a new crystal, cleaning and dents taken out plus cleaning the dial and straightening the bent minute hand. Plenty more on this watch to do.

Thanks for the complement on the pics - I should take a pic of my work setup sometime soon.

- John
I think this might be the post you are referring back to on leaving that jewel in there. I see Graham suggested that you leave it for the moment. I agree with him though that this should only be for a quick test to see if you have a running movement before starting on the involved business of replacing a rubbed in jewel. If you want to keep the watch running for any period of time you’ll want it replaced. Even a small step in the surface will cut the pivot over time. And the metal shavings will exacerbate the wear.
 

gmorse

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Hi John,
I’m afraid you’ll have a hard time pressing these jewels out. From all the photos you’ve posted I think they are rubbed in. That means opening up the setting in such a way that it can can then be closed again. You can do this with a polished burnisher in a watchmakers lathe on a faceplate or you need a set of specialized jewelling tools with angled jaws. They look a bit like a fine hand vise with conical tips.
This is my concern, the process of harvesting the jewels from a donor movement. Even with a jewelling press, the success rate in extracting the jewels intact is not high. The tools that Karl mentioned are used for fitting jewels, they don't have any function in removing them. The 'openers' are used once the old jewel is removed and are for pushing back and fully opening the thin retaining web to accept the new jewel. They're the upper layer in this picture and the 'closers' with the concave tips in the lower layer are for burnishing the web back over the jewel.

Jewel setting openers + closers.JPG

Regards,

Graham
 
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karlmansson

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Hi John,


This is my concern, the process of harvesting the jewels from a donor movement. Even with a jewelling press, the success rate in extracting the jewels intact is not high. The tools that Karl mentioned are used for fitting jewels, they don't have any function in removing them. The 'openers' are used once the old jewel is removed and are for pushing back and fully opening the thin retaining web to accept the new jewel. They're the upper layer in this picture and the 'closers' with the concave tips in the lower layer are for burnishing the web back over the jewel.

View attachment 707459

Regards,

Graham
Aha! That's news to me! I always thought that the ones similar to the rightmost ones were for opening a setting for extracting the jewel.
 

John Hinkey

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I would suggest filing a rod of brass into a wedge shape if the peg wood isn’t cutting it.

I’m afraid you’ll have a hard time pressing these jewels out. From all the photos you’ve posted I think they are rubbed in. That means opening up the setting in such a way that it can can then be closed again. You can do this with a polished burnisher in a watchmakers lathe on a faceplate or you need a set of specialized jewelling tools with angled jaws. They look a bit like a fine hand vise with conical tips.
Filing down a brass rod is exactly what I'm going to do and I just ordered a brass pick set that I will also file down the tips so that I will have a right angle super fine brass pick.
I've also discovered that my brand new jewelers screwdrivers have gotten magnetized and the cheap demagnetizer (plastic-coated set of magnets) is not demagnetizing them enough - so I've bought one of those small electric demagnetizers.

Again, I would not attempt to remove a jewel from a donor and transplant it into my movement - I'd have someone with the correct tools do it.
IF I were to do this my self I would remove as much of the brass around the donor jewel first to reduce the chance of damaging it upon pressing it out.
I've seen YouTube videos of installing a rubbed in jewel, but not pressing out a good one . . .
 

gmorse

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Hi Karl,
Aha! That's news to me! I always thought that the ones similar to the rightmost ones were for opening a setting for extracting the jewel.
They look as though they should work like that, but if you look at a rubbed in setting, you'll see that in the majority of cases there isn't any of the rubbed web showing above the jewel for the jaws of the tool to engage with, and also, the web is extremely thin on its top rim.

I've seen YouTube videos of installing a rubbed in jewel, but not pressing out a good one . . .
Ah, John, that's because it ranges from very difficult to impossible to get the jewel out without cracking it.

Regards,

Graham
 
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John Hinkey

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Some progress.

Put the balance and balance spring in L&R111 for a few minutes and it came out cleaner than just using one-dip:
1651363395336.jpeg
Balance pivots look fine.
Impulse jewel looks fine. Maybe a tad tilted, but hard to tell - the impulse jewel looks tapered to me under high magnification:
1651363460915.jpeg
1651363483245.jpeg
1651363497508.jpeg
So no more cleaning on the balance.
Cleaned up the dial with water and some soft sponge tipped cleaning swabs and it looks great:
1651363626017.jpeg

Cleaned up the really grimy hands using L&R 111 and it worked great. Also the dial feet tapered pins got an L&R111 treatment.

Well, it's time to put it back together and see how well it runs.

The next big adventures will be re-installing the balance onto the cock, hand-installing the mainspring (don't have a winder and the diameter of the pre-wound spring is too large to pop it in) and oiling.

Mainspring hand install and oiling I haven't done before, but have watched lots of videos and read the oiling bible.
 

gmorse

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Hi John,
Put the balance and balance spring in L&R111 for a few minutes and it came out cleaner than just using one-dip
Yes it certainly is, because there's more in the L&R than just solvents.

Balance pivots look fine.
Impulse jewel looks fine. Maybe a tad tilted, but hard to tell - the impulse jewel looks tapered to me under high magnification:
The only pivot in focus doesn't look too bad, but it is rather flattened at the tip, and at the moment there's nothing you can do about that.

The impulse jewel does look slightly tapered, but it's elliptical, which is an antiquated type so trying to find a replacement won't be worth the effort. The taper and the tilt are theoretically wrong since it means the clearance between it and the lever fork can vary depending on position, but again, this is splitting hairs.

Enamel dials are resistant to most cleaning chemicals and being fused glass on a metal substrate can safely be cleaned in denture cleaner. The thing to be careful with is any signatures or other markings which have been applied after the final firing of the enamel. Such painted or inked markings will come off.

You're in a much better place now with this than when you started!

Regards,

Graham
 
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John Hinkey

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Hi John,


Yes it certainly is, because there's more in the L&R than just solvents.



The only pivot in focus doesn't look too bad, but it is rather flattened at the tip, and at the moment there's nothing you can do about that.

The impulse jewel does look slightly tapered, but it's elliptical, which is an antiquated type so trying to find a replacement won't be worth the effort. The taper and the tilt are theoretically wrong since it means the clearance between it and the lever fork can vary depending on position, but again, this is splitting hairs.

Enamel dials are resistant to most cleaning chemicals and being fused glass on a metal substrate can safely be cleaned in denture cleaner. The thing to be careful with is any signatures or other markings which have been applied after the final firing of the enamel. Such painted or inked markings will come off.

You're in a much better place now with this than when you started!

Regards,

Graham
I will pull out the other balance from one of the working donor movements to compare impulse jewels and balance pivots just to make sure all is OK before I start the re-assembly tonight.

Thanks for your input Graham (and others)!
 

John Hinkey

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Here's some images of the impulse jewels from two donor watches.
The first one is from the very damaged movement that has broken balance pivots, but the spring is good.
As you can see this jewel is bent outwards:
1651436654110.jpeg
and this one is from a (what appears to be) working donor movement and the jewel is bent inwards noticeably:
1651436708252.jpeg
It's really obvious when viewed from the side of the balance (but I don't have pics of this).

So I think the impulse jewel from my restoration watch looks pretty good considering.

I have another donor movement that is in excellent shape (except for a broken mainspring), but I've not taken that one apart yet to look at the balance.

- J
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

Setting the impulse jewel upright is entirely down to the dexterity of the repairer who last fitted it . . .

Regards,

Graham
 

John Hinkey

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Hi John,

Setting the impulse jewel upright is entirely down to the dexterity of the repairer who last fitted it . . .

Regards,

Graham
That jewel looks HUGE in my pics, but then I put the end of my tweezers next to it and it's really small.
I assume you could gently warm up the shellac to just soften it and gently push the jewel back to where it needs to be (how hard could it be :D to do that), but that's beyond my capabilities at the moment.

- J
 
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John Hinkey

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OK, before I start the re-assembly I just want to confirm what parts I oil with which of the oils that I have:
  • KT-22: Mainspring barrel, Keyless works, cannon pinion, setting works, click (?). Mainspring comes pre-oiled.
  • HP 1300: Center wheel and barrel pivots
  • 9020: Pallet and balance pivots, escape wheel pivots, third and fourth wheels
  • 9415: Pallet Jewels
Let me know what I've gotten wrong!

Thanks - J
 

svenedin

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The BHI lubrication guide is very useful. https://theindex.nawcc.org/Articles/BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf

The commonest beginner mistake is too much oil and I have made that mistake. You need good light and magnification to place the oil successfully. If you mess it up, take it apart, swish in degreaser and try again. The pallet stone (exit pallet) can be oiled through the inspection holes in the plate with light from underneath (a torch will do).

Make sure you put the new spring in the right way up. I have to check repeatedly because for some reason it confuses me. Check the spring coils are coiled in the correct direction so that the barrel arbor hook will engage. Before you fit the spring it would be a good idea to check the assembled barrel for side shake and end shake as this can seriously affect power delivery.

Before any oiling check the train runs freely. Of course be extremely careful that the pivots are in place before tightening bridges. Small springs in the keyless works can try to escape so restrain them with peg wood or a plastic probe as you are fitting them (and/or work in a plastic bag if in doubt).
 
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