Go back and check your escape wheel pinion. It doesn't look well at all. Looks like a broken leaf there.
Most visitors online was 1990 , on 7 Feb 2022
Thanks Graham.Hi John,
The barrel is the first wheel, the centre is the second, then on down the train to the escape.
This is the fourth wheel and the extended arbor is indeed bent. It can be straightened but it needs care and the best way is in a lathe, but leave it be for now.
The jewels are meant to be shrouded like that, the escape teeth should be centred on the jewels and never touch the metal pallet frame.
The tips look flattened but you'll have to live with that as you haven't the tools to fix it. The impulse jewel is slightly out of upright, but again, leave it for now.
Regards,
Graham
I think the pinion teeth are just dirty and needs some cleaning attention. I'm going to individually clean all the wheels again under magnification with a brush and then re-inspect them to see what was dirt and what was wear and tear.Go back and check your escape wheel pinion. It doesn't look well at all. Looks like a broken leaf there.
L&R 111 is ammoniated and I would not leave parts in it to soak. Use it only for the duration recommended by L&R and then rinse. As I mentioned earlier: you will need to remove resin formed oils mechanically.Also, is it safe to leave the pallet jewels and the roller jewel in L&R111 for extended periods of time to give some of this stuff a chance to dissolve?
Also, also () what is an alternative rinse for L&R111 since I did not buy the expensive L&R rinse solution?
Thanks -
John
Boy, I've looked at this every which way under higher magnification and I think you are seeing left over debris that is still stuck on. I cleaned more gunk off and I don't see anything wrong with the leaf on the pinion. Pictures to come.L&R 111 is ammoniated and I would not leave parts in it to soak. Use it only for the duration recommended by L&R and then rinse. As I mentioned earlier: you will need to remove resin formed oils mechanically.
I use napththa as a first rinse for my L&R cleaner but the real L&R rinse as my final rinse.
I also pretty positive that roughbarked is right about the broken pinion leaf. Look below:
View attachment 706291
Yes, there is still lots of crud left over on this part - it will get another thorough cleaning. I've not manually cleaned the wheels yet - just a few minutes in Naptha, L&R111, then Naptha rinse which got 90% of the stuff off, but a mechanical cleaning is needed for sure.Guesswork isn't science so I'd go with giving it a good cleanup and examination but it looks like it is possible that there may have been some rust of the pinion.
Thick layer of oily residue left over if left to evaporate on its own, but just a slight oily film if subsequently rinsed with Naptha.
I think what you're seeing is the soap components of the cleaner, which are like an emulsion in the base solvents. This is why at least two rinses in different containers are recommended to remove all traces of the cleaner. Also, if your naphtha is leaving an oily film, then it may not the same as the one I use; not all 'naphthas' are created equal! The types sold as lighter fuel, ('Swan', 'Ronson', 'Zippo', etc), seem to be rather more pure than others intended for different purposes. Mechanical agitation of some sort, whether it's in a traditional oscillating watch cleaning machine, ultrasonic, brushing, or pegging out, is an essential part of the process.Naphta is not a good rinse. As you mentioned, it leaves an oily film. This will encourage oils/greases you apply after reassembly to spread away from parts that should be lubricated. Isopropyl alcohol may be an alternative rinse.
Is this the side we saw in the previous images? If so, it could be that an attempt has been made to rivet the wheel onto the pinion and the leaf snapped at the mounting end. While not ideal you may still have a working pinion if the rest of the pinion is okay. Look at it from the other end as previously suggested.More images of the escape wheel pinion leaves . . . don't see any cracks, it appears to me it's just the way it's made.
Still lots of junk stuck between the pinion leaves and misc. other spots:
View attachment 706386
View attachment 706387
View attachment 706388
I'll compare this one to one from a donor movement sometime this weekend.
- John
Ah. I stand corrected. I use Essence of Renata which is a highly refined, volatile hydrocarbon solvent which smells rather like Coleman fuel or Aspen 4T (I also collect petrol pressure stoves and lamps). I only use it for the balance (degreasing hairsprings) and balance jewels. I did not know the composition of "One dip". Regarding lighter fuel I suppose it depends how narrow a fraction of hydrocarbons it is composed of. If it has the volatile light fractions AND some of the heavier fractions it will leave an oily film after the volatile fractions have evaporated. You are absolutely correct to be concerned about certain solvents. The watchmakers of old (like my grandfather and great grandfather) used horrible chemicals including benzene and did themselves no end of harm. Both my ancestors died earlier than they should have probably as a result of the chemicals they used so casually!Is this the side we saw in the previous images? If so, it could be that an attempt has been made to rivet the wheel onto the pinion and the leaf snapped at the mounting end. While not ideal you may still have a working pinion if the rest of the pinion is okay. Look at it from the other end as previously suggested.
Napththa is an excellent rinse! In fact more than 90% of the weight by volume of the L&R rinse is naphtha. But different naphthas have different compositions and some are more volatile than others, that’s why I use the L&R rinse in my final rinse.
One dip is something I would steer clear of entirely. It’s tri- and tetrachloroethylene, about as bad as organic solvents get nowadays. Absolutely do not use it unless you have an active exchange of air around you. One deep breath around it and you will likely get a lasting headache. Which is telling for what it does to the myelin in you brain.
This is the same side of the escape wheel that people thought they saw cracks in the pinion leaf, but as you can see it looks like this is the manufacturing process from 1878 or so when this movement was made. I'll confirm with another escape wheel from my donor movements.Excellent though the pictures are, I think we’re seeing the wrong side of the escape wheel to comment on the condition of the pinion.
Naphta is not a good rinse. As you mentioned, it leaves an oily film. This will encourage oils/greases you apply after reassembly to spread away from parts that should be lubricated. Isopropyl alcohol may be an alternative rinse. For parts with shellacked jewels (pallet fork, balance impulse stone) you run the risk of the shellac dissolving in alcohol. You can use the one-dip you ordered for those parts instead.
No, the Naptha I've been using does not leave an oily residue, it's the oily residue left from the L&R111 even after a Naptha rinse that I was referring to.Excellent though the pictures are, I think we’re seeing the wrong side of the escape wheel to comment on the condition of the pinion.
Naphta is not a good rinse. As you mentioned, it leaves an oily film. This will encourage oils/greases you apply after reassembly to spread away from parts that should be lubricated. Isopropyl alcohol may be an alternative rinse. For parts with shellacked jewels (pallet fork, balance impulse stone) you run the risk of the shellac dissolving in alcohol. You can use the one-dip you ordered for those parts instead.
Not so sure what practical uses benzene would have in watchmaking but it is often confused with benzine, which is the trade name for heptane. Heptane, while nasty to breathe in, is less of a health hazard compared to tetrachloroethylene (One dip). So I suspect you might be breathing in chemicals on par with what you ancestors did if you are using it regularly.Ah. I stand corrected. I use Essence of Renata which is a highly refined, volatile hydrocarbon solvent which smells rather like Coleman fuel or Aspen 4T (I also collect petrol pressure stoves and lamps). I only use it for the balance (degreasing hairsprings) and balance jewels. I did not know the composition of "One dip". Regarding lighter fuel I suppose it depends how narrow a fraction of hydrocarbons it is composed of. If it has the volatile light fractions AND some of the heavier fractions it will leave an oily film after the volatile fractions have evaporated. You are absolutely correct to be concerned about certain solvents. The watchmakers of old (like my grandfather and great grandfather) used horrible chemicals including benzene and did themselves no end of harm. Both my ancestors died earlier than they should have probably as a result of the chemicals they used so casually!
Yes, as has been mentioned several times now, you cannot count on the cleaning fluids alone to do the job. You need to mechanically clean out the pinion leaves with a shaped piece of peg wood if there’s resin formed oil in there. The cleaners won’t touch it, at most they will soften it. A good ultrasonic can sometimes chip it and lift it but that doesn’t always work either. The oil has polymerized and is more like a plastic than oil at this point.Here is the pinion side:
View attachment 706403
needs further cleaning for sure as there is "stuff" in the nooks and crannies that did not get removed by naptha bath + L&R111 soaking.
The pinion leaf surfaces appear to be damaged, but it's just deposits that have not come off yet.
- J
No I mean Benzene as I said (cyclohexatriene). It was used historically as a watch cleaning solvent and is no longer used as it is a carcinogen.Not so sure what practical uses benzene would have in watchmaking but it is often confused with benzine, which is the trade name for heptane. Heptane, while nasty to breathe in, is less of a health hazard compared to tetrachloroethylene (One dip). So I suspect you might be breathing in chemicals on par with what you ancestors did if you are using it regularly.
I have also found that brushing with cleaning fluid (naptha or L&R111, etc.) with a very small stiff-hair painting brush while viewing under magnification does wonders too.Yes, as has been mentioned several times now, you cannot count on the cleaning fluids alone to do the job. You need to mechanically clean out the pinion leaves with a shaped piece of peg wood if there’s resin formed oil in there. The cleaners won’t touch it, at most they will soften it. A good ultrasonic can sometimes chip it and lift it but that doesn’t always work either. The oil has polymerized and is more like a plastic than oil at this point.
Sigh . . . yes pithwood . . . apparently I wasn't awake yet this morning when I typed.Hi John,
Do you mean pithwood blocks? Pegwood comes in sticks and is quite hard.
Regards,
Graham
The pivots look very good. The impulse jewel may be very slightly tipped outward radially, but it's very slight if at all. I'll take some more pics tomorrow/this weekend.Hairpring looks good. All flat and coils are even. There is a bit of rust on the inner coils. Not much you can do. Should be ok but it may suddenly fail with corrosion cracking. What do the balance staff pivots look like and the impulse jewel?
Yes, the corrosion is there and you have to live with that. You could try using a fine, soft brush with the one-dip to loosen some of the stubborn dust specks, but otherwise I'd try it like that. As Stephen says, the important parts are the pivots and the impulse jewel.Then I used the one-dip kind of stuff on the balance and balance spring and it cleaned up quite a bit, through there is some very small stuff still stuck onto the hairspring:
Please don't use screwdrivers for cleaning. This is where the sticks of pegwood comes into play. Since you only mention the pithwood I'm thinking you didn't order any pegwood this time around.OK, got my pithwood (Esslinger)) and replacement spring (from CousinsUK) and my L&R rinsing solution (Amazon).
Time to do a final cleaning in Naptha, L&R 111, the L&R #3, see what, if any parts I want to swap out from my donor movements (and clean those) and do an assembly/oiling and see how it runs. The only part I have not cleaned yet is the balance/balance spring assembly, but I have the one-dip equivalent for that.
I did do a final cleaning of the pallet and escape wheel last night and boy some of that stuff would only come off with extremely careful scraping with a micro-screw driver under high magnification. As Graham said this old old stuff just won't dissolve in any reasonable time.
More pictures to come.
- J
Thanks Karl -Please don't use screwdrivers for cleaning. This is where the sticks of pegwood comes into play. Since you only mention the pithwood I'm thinking you didn't order any pegwood this time around.
Also keep in mind that for every revolution of a pivot in a cracked jewel, that jewel has the chance to act like a graver and shrear the pivot off. So be very carful with running a movement with broken jewels. I never quite got your plan of attack: do you plan to replace the plates with the broken jewels and implant donor parts or are you looking to replace the jewels in the original bridges? These are rubbed in jewels and are quite involved to replace with original parts. Some watchmakers replace them with friction fit jewels, although that does alter the watch in a permanent way that some claim robs it of its autenticity.
Regards
Karl
Chris, have you ever had issues with hairspring pins or balance screws falling out in the ultrasonic on older watches?The L&R fluids are perfectly safe to use on balance, hairspring, lever, shellac, etc etc. I have bought one-dip twice in about 30 years and never found any use for it, except evaporating into my shop air for me to breathe.
I put every balance and hairspring through the the ultrasonic cleaning machine with the L&R fluids. It runs a few minutes in each jar, I never soak parts in it.
I don't have an ultrasonic, so it would be a short soak in a glass jar with some very mild swishing of the fluid around.The L&R fluids are perfectly safe to use on balance, hairspring, lever, shellac, etc etc. I have bought one-dip twice in about 30 years and never found any use for it, except evaporating into my shop air for me to breathe.
I put every balance and hairspring through the the ultrasonic cleaning machine with the L&R fluids. It runs a few minutes in each jar, I never soak parts in it.
I would suggest filing a rod of brass into a wedge shape if the peg wood isn’t cutting it.Thanks Karl -
Based on some input from Graham regarding the cracked jewel, my plan is to get it back together and get it running as-is since the crack was not too bad (I assume meaning there's just a crack and no chips). I have two donor movements that a jewel can be pressed out of, but that's beyond my capabilities, so would need to send the bridge and donor bridges out to someone else with no guarantee that I'll get a bridge back with a working jewel. Fortunately there seems to be many of these vintage movements out there (most in bad shape) to donate replacement jewels.
This watch will not be used everyday so it's OK to replace the jewel later on at the risk of taking it apart again.
I could not get the pegwood tip to be thin/pointed enough or stiff enough to get the really stuck on stuff off, so I used the finest 0.8mm screwdriver very very very very carefully to scrape off non-brass parts. No other option worked - pushing pinion gears into pithwood did not get rid of everything on some pinion leaves AND the pallet is an odd shape with really caked on stuff that would not come off after repeated naptha and L&R baths + a fine brushing. I even used Acetone on some of the metal-only (non jewel) parts that had stuck on hard deposits and that didn't get rid of the stuff either. Mechanical removal was the only option.
You do what you must do and I did not damage anything. I need to make a very fine tipped brass pick for some of this hard stuff removal as opposed to the screwdriver.
The pegwood was great for soft sticky stuff on on pivot jewels, but not for unsticking hard caked on deposits.
Hence my problem with the balance hairspring - there appears to be hard caked on deposits left over on the spring and I was wondering how to get those off w/o damaging the spring or the balance. Two quick soakings in one-dip kind of stuff did not remove these.
Should I try putting the balance+balance spring in L&R111 & L&R rinse to try to get this stuff off the spring?
Thanks -
John
I think this might be the post you are referring back to on leaving that jewel in there. I see Graham suggested that you leave it for the moment. I agree with him though that this should only be for a quick test to see if you have a running movement before starting on the involved business of replacing a rubbed in jewel. If you want to keep the watch running for any period of time you’ll want it replaced. Even a small step in the surface will cut the pivot over time. And the metal shavings will exacerbate the wear.So you think it's OK if I put it together with this very cracked jewel:
View attachment 705541
View attachment 705542
and if it runs OK leave it as is? I have a couple of donor movements that I can get a replacement jewel from (I'd have someone else replace the jewel as it's beyond my current capabilities). It takes very little time to pull the bridge off to get it repaired.
I suppose there is victory in getting a new mainspring installed, movement back together and running well as the sterling silver case needs a new crystal, cleaning and dents taken out plus cleaning the dial and straightening the bent minute hand. Plenty more on this watch to do.
Thanks for the complement on the pics - I should take a pic of my work setup sometime soon.
- John
This is my concern, the process of harvesting the jewels from a donor movement. Even with a jewelling press, the success rate in extracting the jewels intact is not high. The tools that Karl mentioned are used for fitting jewels, they don't have any function in removing them. The 'openers' are used once the old jewel is removed and are for pushing back and fully opening the thin retaining web to accept the new jewel. They're the upper layer in this picture and the 'closers' with the concave tips in the lower layer are for burnishing the web back over the jewel.I’m afraid you’ll have a hard time pressing these jewels out. From all the photos you’ve posted I think they are rubbed in. That means opening up the setting in such a way that it can can then be closed again. You can do this with a polished burnisher in a watchmakers lathe on a faceplate or you need a set of specialized jewelling tools with angled jaws. They look a bit like a fine hand vise with conical tips.
Aha! That's news to me! I always thought that the ones similar to the rightmost ones were for opening a setting for extracting the jewel.Hi John,
This is my concern, the process of harvesting the jewels from a donor movement. Even with a jewelling press, the success rate in extracting the jewels intact is not high. The tools that Karl mentioned are used for fitting jewels, they don't have any function in removing them. The 'openers' are used once the old jewel is removed and are for pushing back and fully opening the thin retaining web to accept the new jewel. They're the upper layer in this picture and the 'closers' with the concave tips in the lower layer are for burnishing the web back over the jewel.
View attachment 707459
Regards,
Graham
Filing down a brass rod is exactly what I'm going to do and I just ordered a brass pick set that I will also file down the tips so that I will have a right angle super fine brass pick.I would suggest filing a rod of brass into a wedge shape if the peg wood isn’t cutting it.
I’m afraid you’ll have a hard time pressing these jewels out. From all the photos you’ve posted I think they are rubbed in. That means opening up the setting in such a way that it can can then be closed again. You can do this with a polished burnisher in a watchmakers lathe on a faceplate or you need a set of specialized jewelling tools with angled jaws. They look a bit like a fine hand vise with conical tips.
They look as though they should work like that, but if you look at a rubbed in setting, you'll see that in the majority of cases there isn't any of the rubbed web showing above the jewel for the jaws of the tool to engage with, and also, the web is extremely thin on its top rim.Aha! That's news to me! I always thought that the ones similar to the rightmost ones were for opening a setting for extracting the jewel.
Ah, John, that's because it ranges from very difficult to impossible to get the jewel out without cracking it.I've seen YouTube videos of installing a rubbed in jewel, but not pressing out a good one . . .
Yes it certainly is, because there's more in the L&R than just solvents.Put the balance and balance spring in L&R111 for a few minutes and it came out cleaner than just using one-dip
The only pivot in focus doesn't look too bad, but it is rather flattened at the tip, and at the moment there's nothing you can do about that.Balance pivots look fine.
Impulse jewel looks fine. Maybe a tad tilted, but hard to tell - the impulse jewel looks tapered to me under high magnification:
I will pull out the other balance from one of the working donor movements to compare impulse jewels and balance pivots just to make sure all is OK before I start the re-assembly tonight.Hi John,
Yes it certainly is, because there's more in the L&R than just solvents.
The only pivot in focus doesn't look too bad, but it is rather flattened at the tip, and at the moment there's nothing you can do about that.
The impulse jewel does look slightly tapered, but it's elliptical, which is an antiquated type so trying to find a replacement won't be worth the effort. The taper and the tilt are theoretically wrong since it means the clearance between it and the lever fork can vary depending on position, but again, this is splitting hairs.
Enamel dials are resistant to most cleaning chemicals and being fused glass on a metal substrate can safely be cleaned in denture cleaner. The thing to be careful with is any signatures or other markings which have been applied after the final firing of the enamel. Such painted or inked markings will come off.
You're in a much better place now with this than when you started!
Regards,
Graham
That jewel looks HUGE in my pics, but then I put the end of my tweezers next to it and it's really small.Hi John,
Setting the impulse jewel upright is entirely down to the dexterity of the repairer who last fitted it . . .
Regards,
Graham