Solution to cleaning Parts Pocket Watch???

karlmansson

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My reason for asking is that I have not seen you asking questions on lunrication technique to at all the same extent as cleaning technique. Using the correct lubricants is important but using the right amount in the right place is equally important. Do you have any literature or tutorage to aid you in this?
 

nuno

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Hello good information, to lubrification.

Please i i clean this verge, but now i have a problem, the watch works good 1-2 hours but than the movemnt loose force and stop, and if i remove the balance, the fusee chain winds up only half in barrel mainspring? have special afination? I see a tuner below barrell mainspring, is there the afination?

VIDEO0224_0000025574.jpg

Thanks,
Nuno
 

Smudgy

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I don't know what you mean by tuner or afination, but the spring barrel needs to be pre-wound if you haven't done so yet. There is a square ended winding post right near where you have the arrow pointing in the picture that is used to pre-wind the spring. Check the archives for the amount of winding you should do, as too much winding will likely break the chain. Someone with more experience working on verge fusees may post the amount needed. This topic is different enough from the topic that was used to start this thread that it may help you get more viewers if you started a new thread.
 

gmorse

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Hi nuno,

Smudgy is right, the mainspring in a fusee movement has to have some extra tension. When the spring is fully unwound, (with with all the chain on the barrel), the barrel arbor must be turned to apply that extra tension. In your watch the arbor is turned by the square underneath the barrel which is the end of a tangent screw, and this should be turned clockwise to turn the arbor in the right direction. If you look at the top plate end of the barrel arbor, you should see a small mark on the end of the arbor, with small marks on the plate or barrel bar near it, and this will let you know how much the arbor has been turned.

The right amount to turn it varies from watch to watch, but without the special tool to set it up, I should turn the square enough to turn the arbor between half and three-quarters of a turn. If you find that there is still some chain left on the fusee when fully unwound, then give it a little more tension.

This pre-tension does two things; it moves the usable part of the mainspring power curve along to a flatter part, and it keeps the chain snug on the barrel when fully unwound. If it wasn't there, the slack chain might slide off the barrel.

When you put the watch together, did you wind all the chain on the fusee or on the barrel? It must be on the barrel to start with.

Regards,

Graham
 
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Skutt50

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I agree with Smudgy and Graham.

Judging from your picture (if that is the position the watch stops) you wound the chain on the fusee during asssembly!
It should be wound on the barrel.

When you pre-set the mainspring, the watch should start and pull the fusee until the chain points out close to 90 degrees from the fusee.

When you thereafter wind the watch the first time you must observe how the chain climbes the fusee. You often need to help it by separating the turns on the barrel. (Also check that the stop of the fusee kicks in properly when the fusee is full, or you might damage the chain.)

When you have done this once, the chain will distribute itself on the barrel when it unwinds from the fusee.

Merry Christmas and good luck.
 

gmorse

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Hi nuno,

Judging from your picture (if that is the position the watch stops) you wound the chain on the fusee during asssembly!
It should be wound on the barrel.
Don't worry, you won't have to take it apart again, you can use the tangent screw to pull the chain back onto the barrel. Just wind the tangent screw so that the watch starts running again, let it run as far as it will, then repeat until you have all the chain on the barrel when the spring is fully unwound. If you do this gradually, a bit at a time, you won't wind the spring too tight. You're lucky it's a tangent screw, this is a more secure and easy way to do this than the later ratchet wheel and click.

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Hello my friends,

thanks i go try again like you say.

Merry Christmas for all

Nuno
 

Skutt50

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Thanks Graham.

Good to have you here. I should have thought of that myself. I did the same thing long ago on some early fusee works.

The only draw back is that it can take 24 hours or more before you are done.... (LOL)

Merry Christmas!
 

nuno

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Hello my friends,

Now my verge are working good. Like you say is the afination of set-up worm in clockwise.

A happy New year to all

Thanks,
Nuno
 

nuno

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Hello my friends,

is necessary clean inside the cone fusee? or is normal put the cone completed inside a solution elma 1:9 ?

do you know any guide how can dismantled a cone fusee?

Thanks, Nuno
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

Yes, it is necessary to dismantle the fusee and remove the great wheel to examine the ratchet and lubricate it on re-assembly.

The great wheel is held on to the fusee cone with a cross pin through a collet. Remove the pin and you can dismantle the fusee. A new brass taper pin should be used to re-assemble.

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Hello my friend Graham,

i have clean 4 verge but not dismantled the cone, what you think, can make rust in future inside cone? do you sugest remove in 4 the cone and clean or let stand?

I cleaning as has suggested

1-clean elma 1:9
2-water distilled
3-alcool isopropilico
4- drying hair dryer


Thanks,
Nuno
 
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gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

It is never wise to clean any part of a watch without fully dismantling it. With fusees, you do risk corrosion, but more importantly, with most later watches you can't see the condition of the click and ratchet wheel without taking it apart, because those components are hidden under the great wheel. In earlier fusees the ratchet and click were usually on the outside of the wheel, but it's still good practice to take them apart for cleaning and lubrication. The ratchet wheel in particular is often badly worn, exactly because previous repairers didn't usually bother to take the fusee apart and check it and the click. Plus of course, if you don't take it apart you can't lubricate it properly.

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Thanks Graham,

i go remove the cone and clean and lubrification all. Do you sugest any oil specific, to lubrification of cone

Thanks,
Nuno
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

No oil, just a very little grease on the bottom face of the cone where the great wheel rubs, and some on the fusee arbor where the wheel runs. Oh, and a tiny touch on the click.

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Hello my friend Graham,

the moebius 8200 or 8300 are good?

Thanks,
NuNO
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

If you have some 8200, that should be fine, or even 8300, although that's rather thicker.

Regards,

Graham
 

karlmansson

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I find that for slow moving, high pressure, non-rotary parts such as the sliding of the great wheel or the click action, Molykote DX works wonders. It contains molybdenum sulfide that becomes incredibly slippery when under pressure but maintains greasy characteristics when at rest. The best part is that it's dirt cheap!
 

nuno

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Hello my Friends,

I not see the pin brass to open the cone, how can open this in photo. IMAG6067.jpg IMAG6066.jpg

Thanks,
Nuno
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

The pin is through the collet in the centre of the great wheel.

DSCF2426_edit.jpg DSCF3377_edit.jpg

Sometimes the ends of the pin are cut off flush to the collet, which makes it hard to see them. If yours is like this, you'll have to find the smaller end and push it out with a fine punch. Pushing the larger end will only make it tighter!

By the way, the ratchet wheel and click in the second picture show the wear that results in not cleaning and lubricating these parts!

I assume that your example hasn't been cleaned yet?

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Hello my friend Graham,

yes this cone is not clean yet, i go try clean but i dont see the pin, i view whit attention but not see any, what you tink my friend?

IMAG6071.jpg IMAG6074.jpg IMAG6075.jpg IMAG6072.jpg IMAG6073.jpg IMAG6076.jpg
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

This is a different type which I haven't seen before. The only thing I can suggest is to take the screw out of the top and see what's underneath the stop iron. I suspect that there must be a pin under there, since the collet under the great wheel does seem to be solid on the arbor.

Can you post a picture of the movement without the top plate, please, as this fusee appears to work the opposite way to normal, as well as winding from the front?

Regards,

Graham
 
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nuno

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Hello my friend Graham,

yes is a verge very strange, please look have 4 wheels, is normal? and He dont have seconds? waht you tink?

IMAG6046.jpg
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

Verges with four wheel trains are not unusual, but they do often have a seconds hand on the fourth wheel arbor. However, this has the third wheel in the centre instead of the second wheel. Is the dial a normal one with the hands in the centre, or are they offset towards the hinge? On the other hand, it may be an eight day movement? This does not appear to be English, and may have a "reverse fusee"; how does the chain run when it's assembled?

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Hello my friend Graham,

i tink is french, the hands are normal in center and not have seconds. Please i send more photos for you see if have any diferrence.

IMAG6064.jpg IMAG6052.jpg IMAG6053.jpg IMAG6049.jpg IMAG6051.jpg IMAG6042.jpg IMAG6044.jpg IMAG6041.jpg IMAG6045.jpg
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

Yes it does look French, the fusee appears to be a "reversed" type, and that extra wheel must be there to give a longer running time. Have you tried to remove that screw in the top of the fusee?

Regards,

Graham
 

Skutt50

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I agree with French design. It appears to have a balance bridge and English in my experience usually have a balance cock! Graham, do you have the same experience?

As for opening the fusee, the pin described earlier is the normal solution. I must admit however that I have had one fusee I could not open! There was no pin and no logical way of getting it opened. At lest none that I found! I had to give up on that one....... (I believe I started a thread about it long ago.......)

Give it a try to open the screw on top of the fusee but I would be surprised if it is the solution! It was not the solution on the fusee I had to give up on!

I have given it some thought afterwards and possibly the collet is simply pushed on and locks by pure friction!

Looking forward to learning how you get this open.
 

gmorse

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Hi Skutt,

I agree with French design. It appears to have a balance bridge and English in my experience usually have a balance cock! Graham, do you have the same experience? ...
Yes, with a few notable exceptions, (such as Josiah Emery, and some Huguenot watchmakers), a balance bridge is rare in English watches.

I have given it some thought afterwards and possibly the collet is simply pushed on and locks by pure friction!
This seems very unlikely but if there's nothing under that screw, what's the alternative? If it is a friction fit, the only way to remove it would be to put the fusee on a stake so that the edge of the great wheel is supported but the cone is clear, and then gently tap the squared end.

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Hello my Friends,

Now when I go put the chain I see the hook fixed in cone is inverted? Is this you say?
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

If the hooks on the chain are not both facing the same way, then yes, you have a "reverse fusee" and you must wind the chain onto the barrel the opposite way, so that the hook will fit in the hole properly. The chain must "cross over" between the fusee and the barrel.

Have you been able to take the fusee apart?

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Hello my friend,

no the fusee its apear a unique piece. I put the chain like a normal fusee and the cone fusee not working. I go put the chain in opossite on barrel to see if they work.
 

nuno

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Hello, my friend

The hole off hook are normal fusee, if I change the side opossite I can't fixed the chain. The barrell is wrong side the center pinion? IMAG6079.jpg

The cone fusee is inversed same, I give mainspring to left, and the normal is to right. How can put the chain?
 
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Skutt50

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What is it that does not work?

To me the chain on the fusee seems seems to climb the fusee the correct way.

To verify the way the barrel is wound you can open the lid and look at the center arbor...... That will tell you which way it should be turned and thus telling you which way to mount the chain!

Can you post a picture of the chain only!
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

I agree with Skutt, if you look at the way the barrel ratchet works on the pillar plate, the chain must work that way. If the barrel turned the opposite way, the click would not hold it.

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Hello my friends,

now is ok, the chain is in rigth side and all ok and all train is working, but now only see a problem, the pivot low of balance is crooked. If i try to put right whit tweezers can i broken theme? or is easy?

thanks for your help, I have learned a lot from you

Thanks,
Nuno
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

Good news about the chain!

If the lower balance pivot is only slightly bent, you might be able to make it straight if you move it a tiny bit at a time. Brass tweezers or brass lined pliers are better, or there is a special Seitz tool made for this. However, it does depend on how hard the pivots are, (English verges were pretty hard, but don't know about French ones), and if you snap it off you'll have to make, or get a new staff made, which will not be easy as it's a verge. I don't know what equipment and knowledge you have to do this yourself. There is not enough metal to just re-pivot the lower end of a verge staff.

Regards,

Graham
 

Skutt50

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the pivot low of balance is crooked. If i try to put right whit tweezers can i broken theme? or is easy?
I agree with Gaham. The pivots on verge balance arbors are VERY hard and VERY easy to break. Have you straightened pivots in the past? I suggest you get some modern balance staffs to practice on and to learn the procedure. De Carle has some suggestions in his book "Practical Watch Repairing" Chapter "The Lathe and its use", (Page 222 in my book, third edition).

My experience is that if you bend "free hand" so to say, you tend to bend slightly wrong and have to bend again. If not earlier, that is when you often break the pivot.

Another way would be to draw the temper from the pivot, making it softer. Less chance of breakage. Then you need to harden it again....... Sounds like a lot of work but it is much easier than making a replacement arbor.....

Could you possibly post a picture of the bent pivot?
 

nuno

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Hello my friends,

I send now the photo of balance, what you tink? IMAG6089.jpg
 

Skutt50

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That looks like one that could be straightened with some heat treatment. The problem would be to fit it in a lathe!

I don't really know what would be the best approach for you....... Sorry!

Perhaps someone else has some good suggestions.

You might want to check the lower jewels who are likely to have been damaged when the pivot was bent!
 

gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

I think that if you try to straighten this without annealing the steel, you will break the pivot, and even if you do anneal it, it will still be risky. If you decide to anneal the steel, do not put it directly into a flame, but heat up a piece of brass or better still copper, get that hot and use that to apply the heat.

Otherwise, a new staff is the only way; are you equipped to make a new staff?

Regards,

Graham
 

karlmansson

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That looks to be a very complicated staff to reproduce... How do you go about making the flags? Do you leave one section turned to a larger diameter and then file them out? Solder them on?
 

Skutt50

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I have tested making a verge staff in the past. I believe I found some instructions here on NAWCC or possibly in a link from an older thread.
You start with a "large" rod and shave off a substantial amount of steel to shape the staff (minus the flags).... You leave two "rings" where the flags should be and then file the flags from the rings. Not a job I like and I want to avoid, if possible!

There is of course always the possibility to re-pivot! It may be difficult to drill the narrow staff of a verge BUT you can get round that by making the staff the male part and drill the hole in the rod in which you cut the new pivot. Perhaps not the prettiest solution but it will get the watch running again!
 

gmorse

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Hi Scutt,

The traditional way of making a verge staff was to file it up from flat stock, or a piece of old mainspring, which resulted in both the flags in the same plane. The staff between the flags was then heated and the staff twisted so that the flags were at 90 degrees, (for an English verge, sometimes more for a French one), making sure that they were the right way round for the crown wheel. The whole thing was then cleaned up and polished before being hardened. What puzzles me is how they managed to make it run true, which is why I've never done it this way.

Instead I use the lathe method you have described, which does involve quite a bit of careful filing. I shellac the turned staff into a brass block that's been hollowed out to fit it, so that I can file it safely without bending anything. Using carbide lathe tools and diamond files means that I can harden and temper it before it's so fine that there's a risk of distortion.

I think Tom posted something about this in his piece about restoring an Arnold verge, but I can't find it just now.

I'll try and find some pictures of the work.

<Edit> Found some pictures of a previous repair, (the second picture shows the brass collet being tried for size):

DSCF2584.jpg DSCF2586.jpg DSCF2590.jpg DSCF2597.jpg DSCF2625.jpg

Regards,

Graham
 
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Skutt50

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Great information Graham. I have not heard about the mainspring method before but it makes a lot of sense. I must try that one rainy day...LOL

Great pictures. Thanks for the illustration. Just what I tried to describe.

When we are on the subject I want to remember that there was some difference between French and English verges in the way the paddles were "attached" to the arbor..... Not only the angle but if they purported from the center or from the back? Do I remember correctly?
 

gmorse

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Hi Skutt,

Your memory serves you well! In French verges the acting face of the flags is carried right through the staff leaving it at half thickness, but in English ones the face stops, so that the staff is not reduced. This does make the French style easier to polish properly. In both types the acting face should be radial to the staff axis.

There is another way of filing the flags in the lathe without having to use shellac in a brass block. You have to start with one pivot and then after turning the cylinder for the first flag, rest it on a piece of wooden dowel fitted in the tool rest socket so that you can support it during filing. Only when that flag is finished do you carry on turning the staff and the other flag, which you file as before. The other pivot has to be parted off with a true cone, which you can finally finish in the turns, (or Jacot), since there's now no way of mounting it in a collet.

Each method has its advantages and drawbacks, and probably takes about the same time and trouble.

Regards,

Graham
 
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gmorse

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Hi Nuno,

This thread seems to have strayed a very long way from your original post! I wonder if it's worth asking a Moderator to split it into two threads, one about cleaning and one about fusee and verge repairs?

Regards,

Graham
 

nuno

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Hello my friends,

thanks, i repair the staff, whit a tweezers. Good job. A little hot and went to the site

Now i go clean a




watch that you know very well is a waltham. I put photos later

Regards, Nuno
 

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