Sollner Wien 3 mainspring

[Darrmann39]

I have this movement that needs mainsprings. I've ordered what is correct spring in all dimensions but not sure how I'll convert the inside to this type hook to catch the arbor. Outside is so much easier to put a hole in. How to cut and then bend a hook on inside ? Arrgh. Any suggestions? Or can I get this type mainspring somewhere

 

[wow]

You will need to heat the end red hot and make the bend.

 

[shutterbug]

When you heat it, pull the heat away slowly. Then let it cool. It will be pliable then, and you can make the bend. I don't like that design to hold the spring. Looks like trouble

 

[JTD]

Please could you show where you see 'Sollner Wien 3', I should be very interested.

Many thanks.

JTD

 

[Ken X]

I believe I can see "Sollner Wien No 3" stamped on the bottom centre of the back plate between the bells.

Hope this helps.

Ken

 

[JTD]

I believe I can see "Sollner Wien No 3" stamped on the bottom centre of the back plate between the bells.

Hope this helps.

Ken

You are right, there is something written there, but it looks like more words than three (or four if you count No.). The OP said Wien 3, but you say Wien No. 3. I can't enlarge the words enough to be able to read them

I am still hoping the OP will post a clearer photo of those words but thank you for pointing out where they are, which I had missed.

JTD

 

[Ken X]

I enhanced the image as best I could and got the picture below. Looks like Wien 3 as the OP and you say. Hopefully the OP will confirm.

 

[Darrmann39]

You will need to heat the end red hot and make the bend.

Please could you show where you see 'Sollner Wien 3', I should be very interested.

Many thanks.

JTD

 

[Darrmann39]

When you heat it, pull the heat away slowly. Then let it cool. It will be pliable then, and you can make the bend. I don't like that design to hold the spring. Looks like trouble 

I agree looks like it's going to be really tough to do.

 

[Darrmann39]

Please could you show where you see 'Sollner Wien 3', I should be very interested.

Many thanks.

JTD

I posted the pic but just curious as to your interest in it. Can you give me some info on the maker?

 

[Vernon]

When you heat it, pull the heat away slowly. Then let it cool. It will be pliable then, and you can make the bend. I don't like that design to hold the spring. Looks like trouble

Would you reharden in this case?
Vernon

 

[Darrmann39]

When you heat it, pull the heat away slowly. Then let it cool. It will be pliable then, and you can make the bend. I don't like that design to hold the spring. Looks like trouble

Another thought is it's funny both broken springs didn't

When you heat it, pull the heat away slowly. Then let it cool. It will be pliable then, and you can make the bend. I don't like that design to hold the spring. Looks like trouble

Another thought although it looks kind of like a bad design both springs broke elsewhere not there.

 

[JTD]

I posted the pic but just curious as to your interest in it. Can you give me some info on the maker?

Thank you for posting this much clearer picture. Firstly, the name is Söllner (the Umlaut does make a difference when you are searching indexes).

However, what I was really curious about was the 'Wien 3'. As far as I can see, your clock is early to mid 19th century. At that time the district of Vienna which now has the postal district 3 was (and still is) called Wien Landstrasse. The districts were not delineated until mid 1800s and the numbers were not commonly used in addresses until much later, and when used, they were in roman numerals, III, not 3. I would have expected you clock to be marked Söllner Wien-Landstrasse (or just Söllner Wien).

Also, and this may just be my opinion, the style of the lettering used does not, to my eye, agree with the age of the clock. I think it looks newer.

Now that I now the correct name I will do some searching and see what I can come up with. I will report back if I can find anything useful.

 

[Darrmann39]

Thank you for posting this much clearer picture. Firstly, the name is Söllner (the Umlaut does make a difference when you are searching indexes).

However, what I was really curious about was the 'Wien 3'. As far as I can see, your clock is early to mid 19th century. At that time the district of Vienna which now has the postal district 3 was (and still is) called Wien Landstrasse. The districts were not delineated until mid 1800s and the numbers were not commonly used in addresses until much later, and when used, they were in roman numerals, III, not 3. I would have expected you clock to be marked Söllner Wien-Landstrasse (or just Söllner Wien).

Also, and this may just be my opinion, the style of the lettering used does not, to my eye, agree with the age of the clock. I think it looks newer.

Now that I now the correct name I will do some searching and see what I can come up with. I will report back if I can find anything useful.

Here's a close up

 

[shutterbug]

Would you reharden in this case?
Vernon

I wouldn't. That would make it brittle, and it would break easier. I guess the notch is deep enough to hold it after it's wound a turn or two

 

[JTD]

I posted the pic but just curious as to your interest in it. Can you give me some info on the maker?

Further to my earlier response, I have made a quick search for clockmakers namned Söllner in Wien, from about 1850 onwards. The first I could find was Josef in 1931, but he was in Wien XIX (Döbling) which is a long way from Wien 3 (Landstrasse). He was not listed after 1934.

Then came Karl Söllner in 1941 and he was in Reisnerstrasse 9, right in the middle of Wien 3 (Landstrasse), so in just the right place. During the war many records were destroyed so am not sure what he was doing after 1941. However, a very recent record shows Maria Söllner, 'jewelery and clocks', still at the same address, Reisnerstrasse 9. She must surely be a relative.

The stamp on your clock is not, in my opinion, contemporary to the original date of manufacture. It would, however, be perfectly in keeping for a much later date, such as could have been put on by Karl or Maria Söllner. I don't know why, perhaps Söllner sold it at some point.

All this is of no help to know who actually made your clock, but many of these Viennese movements were never marked on movement or dial (and marks on the dial were often that of a retailer). But I hope it may throw a little light onto the origin of the mysterious stamp on the movement.

JTD

 

[Darrmann39]

Further to my earlier response, I have made a quick search for clockmakers namned Söllner in Wien, from about 1850 onwards. The first I could find was Josef in 1931, but he was in Wien XIX (Döbling) which is a long way from Wien 3 (Landstrasse). He was not listed after 1934.

Then came Karl Söllner in 1941 and he was in Reisnerstrasse 9, right in the middle of Wien 3 (Landstrasse), so in just the right place. During the war many records were destroyed so am not sure what he was doing after 1941. However, a very recent record shows Maria Söllner, 'jewelery and clocks', still at the same address, Reisnerstrasse 9. She must surely be a relative.

The stamp on your clock is not, in my opinion, contemporary to the original date of manufacture. It would, however, be perfectly in keeping for a much later date, such as could have been put on by Karl or Maria Söllner. I don't know why, perhaps Söllner sold it at some point.

All this is of no help to know who actually made your clock, but many of these Viennese movements were never marked on movement or dial (and marks on the dial were often that of a retailer). But I hope it may throw a little light onto the origin of the mysterious stamp on the movement.

JTD

So what I think I'm hearing is you think the clocks much older them the period that stamp was put on and for some reason Karl or Maria possibly put it on at a later date?
Seems odd

 

[Uhralt]

So what I think I'm hearing is you think the clocks much older them the period that stamp was put on and for some reason Karl or Maria possibly put it on at a later date?
Seems odd

Yes, it seems odd, but I agree that the movement is much older than the stamp. I have an Austrian "Zappler" clock with a verge escapement that was made in the early 18th century. It has the same style mainspring arbor with a slot and the same kind of plate mounted spring barrel.

Uhralt

 

[Darrmann39]

So what I think I'm hearing is you think the clocks much older them the period that stamp was put on and for some reason Karl or Maria possibly put it on at a later date?
Seems odd

Here's some better pics of the case

 

[JTD]

So what I think I'm hearing is you think the clocks much older them the period that stamp was put on

Yes. And I see that Uhralt agrees also.

JTD

 

[Mike Mall]

Very interesting mainspring design and movement.
The way the barrels are attached to the plate, the clicks and springs, etc...
Maybe you should post pics in the General discussion section, there may be more to learn about it's origins. Maybe Tatyana will know something?

 

[Darrmann39]

When you heat it, pull the heat away slowly. Then let it cool. It will be pliable then, and you can make the bend. I don't like that design to hold the spring. Looks like trouble

Great advice thanks. The nice thing is it has about a ½ inside radius so a little room to work. Here's a first try with a spare spring .

 

[Mike Mall]

After you assemble this let us know how you accomplish it.
I guess you'll assemble the other wheels on the front plate, and then drop the back plate with the assembled springs, and arbors on top?

 

[Darrmann39]

After you assemble this let us know how you accomplish it.
I guess you'll assemble the other wheels on the front plate, and then drop the back plate with the assembled springs, and arbors on top?

Yes that's the only way I see to do it. As i see it all drops down onto the 2nd wheels on all..

 

[Mike Mall]

Another way may be to remove the 6 side screws from the barrels, and install them after the plates are in place.
But - the top center screw may not be possible to get at.

 

[Darrmann39]

Great progress will have it back in the case after a few days of stand. But here's the pics of the springs done and back together. Heating it red hot and slowly pulling it back worked heat and made it very workable. Mounted the springs and arbors Mounted on plate and dropped them in. Held them with a rubber band because they can actually seperate at that point. Interesting points. Check out the cool pallets.
Thanks for all the help

 

[Darrmann39]

Well all back together. Running well. Has a Type of grand sonnerie strike . Strikes the ¼/½/¾ followed each time by the present hour. But a variation I haven't heard is it strike the quarter hour bell also 4 times at the top of hour followed by the current hour.
So yea pretty happy.

 

[Uhralt]

Congratulations! the springs look great now. The functional parts of the anchor have the typical recoil shape but I agree that the decorative parts look cool. You have a very nice and interesting clock now. Well done.

Uhralt

 

[JimmyOz]

I must have missed this thread and bit late for commenting, however looking at the plates on the movement brought back to my mind of a clock I have somewhere in the many boxes of clocks I have, lucky I did take some photos ages ago when I got it. This may help find a rough date for your movement?
The movement is only time and strike and from memory is a 1 day. This movement was made in Germany, by Wibel Berlin as seen in the photo, no idea when, however the construction and the springs seem similar.

 

[JTD]

This movement was made in Germany, by Wibel Berlin as seen in the photo, no idea when

Abeler lists Johann Friedrich Wibel, Berlin, working 1785-98.

JTD

 

[JTD]

Has a Type of grand sonnerie strike . Strikes the ¼/½/¾ followed each time by the present hour. But a variation I haven't heard is it strike the quarter hour bell also 4 times at the top of hour followed by the current hour.

This strike is very often found in Viennese clocks of this era. I like it.

JTD

 

[JimmyOz]

Abeler lists Johann Friedrich Wibel, Berlin, working 1785-98.

Thanks JTD,did not think it was that old, I might dig it out and fix it up.

 

[Darrmann39]

This strike is very often found in Viennese clocks of this era. I like it.

JTD

Me to. And thanks for that info

 

[Darrmann39]

Thanks JTD,did not think it was that old, I might dig it out and fix it up.

If you do tell me how you deal with releasing the mainspring as I never really figured it out. As it's all inside. 2 of my springs were broke and the time I took off the crutch and anchor and let it run down.

 

[rgmt79]

releasing the mainspring

There is no way of releasing the click, so you have to allow each spring to run down by removing the escape anchor and controlling the speed by placing a finger on the escape wheel. It's a 30hr movement so it will not take too long to unwind. Caution, it's not uncommon for these movements to have stop-works fitted, which will not allow the springs to fully run down, in which case you will need to disengage the stop-works before you begin.

Richard

 

[Darrmann39]

There is no way of releasing the click, so you have to allow each spring to run down by removing the escape anchor and controlling the speed by placing a finger on the escape wheel. It's a 30hr movement so it will not take too long to unwind. Caution, it's not uncommon for these movements to have stop-works fitted, which will not allow the springs to fully run down, in which case you will need to disengage the stop-works before you begin.

Richard

Ah so I did it right . Thanks Good to know.