Solder Help Request

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by gleber, Apr 14, 2017.

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  1. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
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    Hi all,

    I bought a clock that I later discovered had several missing teeth on T1. I as able to find a donor wheel at Merritt's with the same diameter and tooth count, but the arbor was a different set up. I had a machinist friend cut off the old damaged gear and cut out the hub of the donor. It's a near perfect fit.

    View attachment 340245 View attachment 340246
    View attachment 340244

    I'm now ready to solder the two together, but my soldering experience is limited to electronics soldering or MIG and stick welding. I don't think the standard solder I've used for wires would be strong enough. Can anyone recommend what type of solder I should use and any tips?

    Thanks,
    Tom
     
  2. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    Oh my, is this going to be fun! Looks like a candidate for high temperature silver solder but will be challenging to keep everything true. I would not trust electronics solder. Too late now, but why didn't you just use the donor wheel and modify the arbor, or swap the wheels and keep the original arbor?

    RC
     
  3. MrStretch

    MrStretch Registered User

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    I think it's going to be tough to put that back together so that the wheel is concentric with the arbor. The way this is normally done is to turn off all the existing teeth and a few mm deeper. Chuck up the donor wheel in a 6jaw Chuck or faceplate and cut the ID until it's a close fit to the existing wheel. Press or hammer the 2 pieces together and then run a small amount of soft solder into the joint.
     
  4. glenhead

    glenhead Registered User
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    Your friend did an EXCELLENT job of setting you up for success. I use Tix solder and its flux. The good thing about Tix is that its melting point is only 275F (135C), yet it bonds as strongly as other soft solders. If I didn't have Tix, I'd likely use a coreless solder and a rosin flux. Here's how I would do that wheel. (I'm assuming the ends of the spokes fit the cutouts precisely.)

    1. Clean the ends of the spokes and the wheel with acetone, alcohol, brake cleaner, or whatever - you want to remove all traces of oils.
    2. Lightly flux the mating surfaces at the cutouts and the ends of the spokes. You don't want flux in *just* the mating surfaces, you want a bit of overrun, but you don't need to drown things in flux, either.
    3. Figure out some way to hold the wheel horizontally while clamping the spokes in place. You want to create a nice flat surface to work on. A "third hand" would probably work nicely.
    4. Insert the spokes in the cutouts in the wheel. Clamp two of the spokes in place with one spoke between them, and ensure the spoke between them is lined up dead-solid-perfectly in its cutout.
    5. Cut tiny, tiny slivers of the solder and place them on top of the joint. (This is why you want a bit of overlap with the flux.) If the joints are fairly tight it won't take much solder at all to fill the joint. Slivers directly on the joint give tons of control, and wick into the joint when they melt.
    6. Heat the wheel from underneath. Again, if I were doing this I'd use an alcohol lamp. You don't need a ton of heat. The thin brass heats very quickly, and a low-temperature solder like Tix will melt and wick in. You want to try to restrict the heat to just the joint you're working on as much as possible. As soon as the solder wicks into the joint, remove the heat and blow on the joint to cool it.
    7. When it's cool enough to handle, move to the next joint, and work your way around the wheel. If you're concerned about heat traveling and compromising your joints, go to the spoke on the opposite side of the wheel.
    8. When you're through, wash the piece thoroughly with soap and hot water to remove the flux completely.

    Too much detail? Hope this helps!
    Glen
     
  5. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    I would take it to a jeweler and get him/her to braze it, or silver solder it. I like low flow brazing better but high flow silver solder might be better. It depends on how well the seams fit together. Jewelers constantly work with things that have to hold up constantly under moderate stress. They also know how to solder adjacent joints without unsoldering the previous one!
    I doubt if this is going to run true but hopefully it will be true enough. ☺
    Willie X
     
  6. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You might turn a piece of aluminum such that it has a hole
    to take the arbor and some clearance for the click and such.
    Then turn a depression just the diameter of the of the
    wheel, concentric with the arbor hole.
    Now, with a band saw, cut off about 1/4 the diameter
    so the spokes hang out a little.
    You should be able to solder one spoke at a time and
    rotate the piece to a new position for each joint.
    Try to work oppossite sides at a time. Hopefully there
    will be a minimum of thermal expansion in the process.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  7. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    i have an older movement that's provided much education... finally traced the 'why the heck does it keep stopping after i've touched every single thing that could be touched' to a similar situation where i did not solder the thing back together perfectly centered... there was an ever-so-slight off-kilter that made the teeth on one side of a gear stick out ever-so-slightly and jam against another gear... stopping the clock.

    funny how well it runs now that i've fixed that, but the moral of the story is: make sure it's clamped down perfectly true and centered all the way around before soldering/fixing things in place.
     
  8. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    If heat expansion is the issue, I wonder if riveting might work if you were able to make a little fish plate for each spoke, or perhaps a ring of sheet brass that you could rivet onto the toothed part of the wheel and thence to each spoke. I'm afraid I can't draw on this thing to illustrate, but rivets are strong and reliable if you've got room for them.

    M Kinsler
     
  9. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    It is actually true enough that a jeweller can solder it. Even better if the jeweller is also a watchmaker. A watchmaker should be able to true it.
     
  10. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Glenhead's proposal sounds good to me.
     
  11. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    I wouldn't trust Tix for this. A failure would spell disaster.
     
  12. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Okay, maybe not Tix (though it's a good solder). How about good old 60/40?
     
  13. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    60/40 is not a ridged solder. The vary thing that makes it good for
    electronics makes it particularly bad for jobs like this.
    For electronics, you want something that doesn't fracture with
    heat cycling. That means it isn't that stiff.
    There are some relatively low temperature silver solders.
    These are still relatively strong solders. I recall building slot cars
    with some stuff that would bend the brass before breaking.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  14. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Tom
    If you ever have the desire to do this again, I would suggest changing out the arbors rather than cut the wheels apart.

    As others have mentioned, I suspect at this point you may have problems truing, aligning as well as runout issues.

    At this point, If I had to personally put this wheel together it would be as follows.
    First, my method assumes that the wheel spokes are long enough to engage the outer wheel cavities.

    (1) I would first machine a cavity in my machinable jaws Lathe chuck to hold the outer wheel by the OD and take a very light touch up cut on the ID.

    (2) I would next mount the arbor in the lathe and turn the ends of the spokes to fit the ID cut I took on the outer wheel section. Another words I would not use the cavities as I believe this can cause alignment/runout issues.

    (3) From this point , I would place each spoke tip between the outer wheel cavities and high temp silver solder the wheel together.

    (4) When soldering something such as this together, it is placed/clamped on an old surface plate that I use for soldering. This assures alignment if I do my job right.

    If you elect to solicit help involving payment, I would put my money in cutting a new wheel.

    Good Luck
    Jerry Kieffer
     
  15. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Would laser welding work for this project? It produces very little heat, its quite strong and it looks OK. But the first choice is a new wheel, as has been suggested already.
     
  16. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    Wow, what a treat to wake up to! Lots of good advice and not too much scolding for not using the apparently more traditional approach of dealing with the arbor (for the record, that was the advice I received from Merrritt's but for some reason, I thought that would be more complicated since the arbors were not similar).

    The fit is as I mentioned near perfect. It will hold itself in place and when tested is true now. I guess I hadn't thought about how much heat distortion may occur, thinking that it would be somewhat balanced out.

    View attachment 340302

    I prefer to try to learn new skills and am willing to deal with the pains that mother experience can dish out. Thank you all for a great mental warm up for the good fight. So, I'm off to find some silver solder. Wish me luck. I'll report back.

    I'll place a note in the clock with a link to this thread. Suppose it will be there in a 100 years? (This thread, not the note!)

    Tom
     
  17. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    P.S. What does everyone think of just using gusset plates glued with JB weld or similar?

    The spokes in the notches will hold the rotational stress. The only thing I need to prevent is the axial movement of the wheel falling off of the spokes sideways. That stress should be low, but if it did fail that way, it would be catastrophic as mentioned.

    It would not be as pretty as a nice solder job, but would it be bad enough to get me into the hall of shame?

    Tom
     
  18. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    #18 R. Croswell, Apr 15, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
    If you 'had a machinist' cut apart the wheels for you then likely you do not have a lathe with a machinable jaws chuck to attempt the repair Jerry suggested. If we assume that your machinist friend did an accurate job, I would first fit the gear ring to the spokes and place the assembly between the clock plates and spin it to check if it runs true..... this assumes that he machined it to a snug fit so it won't fall apart. If it is too loose to stay together then it probably isn't precise enough to run true. If you can verify that it will run true with the spokes in the notches, then you won't need to re-machine anything before 'soldering'. I agree with Jerry, soft solder is not likely to yield a good long-term outcome. If you don't have the equipment to do high temperature silver soldering, perhaps the best plan might be to look for another donor wheel to fit to the original arbor.

    RC

    JB-Weld is great but probably not for this application. Fish plates or gussets, as you say, would not look so good but if you do use them, then solder them when you solder the spokes. That is if you use a lower temperature solder such as 95/5 or low temp silver solder. As for your HOS ticket, not sure about that. It sure wont be an invisible repair.
     
  19. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    I tested it along with T2 in the plates, and it stays together and runs true. In the process, I actually found that T2 must have taken a hit when it let go the first time, because it's arbor is bent slightly and will need a little truing itself.

    Tom
     
  20. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Well Tom I would say that your machinist friend did a nice job. With the tight joints it is a great candidate for silver brazing.

    If you don't have the equipment for high temperature brazing, then I would go with some sort of fish plates, sistered across the joints. You could make them all the same shape, perhaps "T" shaped and soft solder it all together. Now make sure that anything that you solder on the sides of the wheel won't interfere with mating lantern pinion shrouds, etc. Good soldering techniques will make a barely visible joint. I don't mind seeing a small fillet around the sistered pieces.

    Of course I am a "form follows function guy", and I don't care if my repairs are visible.

    David
     
  21. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I was in our local Ace hardware store yesterday, and they had a dual oxygen/gas setup for $80.00! That's 1/3 the price that I paid for mine! It uses two of the small gas and oxygen tanks, which are perfect for hard soldering. I also found hard silver solder on Ebay that is very thin and will be great for small work. Of course you can get it it larger quantities at the local welding store too.
     
  22. glenhead

    glenhead Registered User
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    I use Tix for essentially all brass repairs. That's why I recommended it. With the fit Tom shows in the picture, particularly since he has tested it in the clock, the technique I outlined would be simple, straightforward, nearly foolproof, and permanent. I use Tix in mounting individual tooth slugs or multi-tooth segments and to make the brass or brass-and-steel tools I use in my lathe. You don't have to braze, you don't have to use silver solder, you don't have to hard solder, you don't have to laser weld. The spokes fit in the notches to bear the radial driving forces, so the solder is there primarily to keep things aligned. If this was a lap joint it might be cause for concern, but for a mortise and tenon joint with the force applied radially, Tix is the ticket.

    Don't knock it until you've experimented with it.

    Tom, if you don't have Tix, nearly any rosin-core solder will work. The higher the lead content the better in this instance to lower the melting point. Just follow the same technique with the chip/slivers of solder right on the joint and heat from behind to wick the solder in, then wash the rosin-core flux off thoroughly.

    Glen
     
  23. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I agree that Tix is easy to use and useful in low stress situations. But any soft solder used for high torque situations is asking for trouble, IMHO.
     
  24. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Okay then go with a silver-bearing solder, using the same technique. I like the technique, whatever the solder. Yoda

    The spokes are keyed into the ring, so there's not a lot of torque stress on the joints.

    Is what I think.
     
  25. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    Keep in mind that in an open spring setup the wheel often comes in contact with the side of the spring as indicated by wear marks on spokes etc. so there is some side loading. TIX is about the weakest solder mentioned. It is great for some thing but I've had it fail under stress. Not saying that it won't work if the spokes fit the slots really well. I think in this case the high temp silver brazing is probably the standard against which everything else is measured.

    RC
     
  26. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Tom has already stated that he likes trying things and learning from things that don't go well. So it sounds like he would like to make this repair, not someone else.

    If he doesn't have silver brazing equipment, and isn't going to invest in it for this job, then being the great wheel and being safe, I would go with his fish plate suggestion. There are indeed many adhesives that would work. As suggested JB weld may work and can be cleaned up, but he has soldering skills, so I would use soft solder for the entire job and include re-enforcing pieces.

    The wheel as is, is not original, so that ship has sailed. If at some point in the future someone doesn't like the pieces sistered on there, then they can remove them and execute a different repair or make a new wheel.

    Let us know what you decide, Tom.

    David
     
  27. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    I have an Oxy/Acetylene set up in the garage with a fine tip (as well as cutting tip). I've done some steel brazing with the fine tip for some other small projects, so I think I should be okay. I was mainly concerned about what type of solder for three reasons. I haven't soldered brass before (other than plumbing), I don't think my typical electrical or plumbing solder is strong enough (which seems to be confirmed here), and I don't want to melt the wheel (which I think I would if I used my current brazing technique and filler).

    I really do appreciate reading all these comments. It's great for learning and should help prevent learning "the hard way."

    I'll update you all with my progress once I get started.

    Tom
     
  28. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User
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    Chop up the remainder of the donor wheel & practice soldering pieces of that together. They're both the same material & thickness. When your happy with the results, move on to the one that matters.
     
  29. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    What he said.
     
  30. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    You are correct to be concerned about melting the brass gear. Requires the right equipment and a degree of skill. There is also a concern that the gear teeth may become annealed and 'soft' being so close to the joint. A lower temperature solder has an advantage when it comes to both of these concerns.

    RC
     
  31. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Tom before I forget....I am still on post one. Regardless of how others may have tackled this problem, you can tell your machinist that he did an awesome job. From a joint 101 perspective he did the right thing to let the spokes into the rim to resist the torque. However to get everything concentric like you say he did, deserves mention.

    David
     
  32. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    David, I agree; if this fits up and runs as true as described the machinist did fine work. One has to wonder just how the machinist proposed that the parts be joined. Perhaps Tom can ask when he delivers the complements on the machining.

    RC
     
  33. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    This repair reminds me of how 'floating' disk brakes are made. They are joined by a large head/flanged rivet right in the center of the joining at each spoke.
    Willie X
     
  34. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    Hey Tom,

    Good luck with this repair. Just for future reference, see this video for a different approach. I think that it may have worked in this situation.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHoyaAq8Ko

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  35. David S

    David S Registered User
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    INdeed Bruce. Replacing teeth has been mentioned here many times with various different methods. I would have attempted that myself, but with a raw blank of brass, not cutting out from a donor. However since this is the great wheel I would have sistered brass reenforcements on at least one side, as I have shown here before.

    David
     
  36. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    If it were going to be 'sistered' and a donor gear is available, why not just sister using a gear segment? .....but that's another project and another topic with another set of options.
     
  37. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Hi RC I was talking about ME, if I were to use Bruce's suggestion. I don't have donors sitting around, so I would just use the patch method that has often been described here. I just enjoy doing that sort of thing, and certainly not recommending it for everyone.....and yes another project and another topic.

    David
     
  38. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Peen the legs in place. Temporary hold. Spin in lathe or drill, check that gear is running true. Solder with silver, maybe brace joints with extra pieces on outside (opposite of where spring is) to strengthen joints.
    But honestly, I wouldn't bother. It will be strong enough.

    Next time cut out teeth section about half way down, not all the way. Leave some of the rim. Cut donation gear teeth section to match. Use of pin gauges helps for teeth distances.

    Actually, a piece of brass same thickness and a file works wonders. Learn to file/cut teeth, it's fun. No need to kill a gear from another clock.

    RJ
     
  39. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    I happen to have acquired a box of derelict movements at auction years ago. They were probably from some clock maker's shop as some of them appear to be quite old and some not so much. A lot of donor parts and brass available. I have used this approach once on a C-2 Wheel to replace a span of seven teeth and thus far it has worked quite well. The Donor's Tooth Profile is not an exact match, the the pinion mesh is good and felt seamless in my Depthing Tool. Although the repair (vs. restoration) if not perfect and is far from invisible, I think it is sound and quite functional. For a span this long, it's probably better than I could have shaped by hand and it certainly was much faster. If you have a donor on hand, I think one should certainly consider this approach as a viable one.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  40. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    After a few weeks of thinking about this while working on some other projects, I decided to go with Willie's idea. I like it for its modern tech thought, simplicity, not having to heat the wheel and worry about annealing it, and it is sort of reversible (I can always remove the rivets and solder it later, and the holes filled with solder would form a good structural connections.

    So, here it is.

    View attachment 346915

    I drilled small holes at the center of each connection. Then I used 20 gauge flat head nails, cut them to size and peened over the shaft to lock each spoke in place. While peening the shafts, they did force the connections to separate slightly (I could see just a sliver of light through them). So, the wheel is sort of ever so slightly pentagon shaped instead of 100% round. The spokes are sort of dished too. I was thinking I might need to redo it and heat the shaft to make it more malleable, but when I test fit it with the second wheel, it ran very smoothly and I couldn't see any out of roundness. I pushed on the sides of each joint to make sure the pin wouldn't roll and separate, but the joints are nice and rigid axially.

    Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I really appreciate them ALL, even though I chose this method. Your suggestions will come in handy when I have a similar situation where this won't work, and I'll be better prepared.

    Now if I can only get one of you to respond to my lonesome post on my BF Picture Frame clock, I'll be extremely happy: http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?143593-2nd-Black-Forest-Picture-Frame-Clock&p=1120024#post1120024 :p

    Tom
     
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