SMITHS K6A 8 day Westminster Clock, need assistance

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by The General, Aug 31, 2012.

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  1. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Hi All,

    I am new to this, i have loved old clocks for years, and have purchased a few, ok more than a few from auctions etc. The first one i bought cost me a lot to fix, i ordered the "Clock Repair primer", and was successful in getting a coo coo clock going. I found this site and am amazed how many people do this for fun, and the information has already been very helpful.

    I purchased this Smith clock thinking it was a Seth Thomas, when i got home i found out it was a smiths, it would not run, i took movement out and it was gummed up badly, with the advice of others that i looked at on here, i disassembled, cleaned etc. I have searched the net, attempted to get info from clock shops here, but not much info given.

    I put it back together yesterday, the issue is that I didn't take a good enough picture of the time side, i had cleaned spring etc and cant get the time train wheels etc done right, i did get it all together, but one pinion on the time spring isn't right.

    Does anyone have one of these intact, or a parts diagram of what it should look like with the plate off??, also the pallet set up is not grabbing every tooth, all seems tight, no up and down movement of the arbor etc, but i can deal with that after, once i get it together


    Thx for any response and assistance, and thx in advance


    Nebah
     
  2. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Welcome Nebah. Can you post some pictures of the movement you have from a few different angles?
     
  3. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Hello Nebah glad to have you here. Yes most likely someone can help you when you post pictures, is this a time and strike or a chiming clock.
    Just saw title 8 day westminster, more coffee needed.:cyclops:
     
  4. The General

    The General Registered User

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    DSC01828.jpg DSC01829.jpg DSC01830.jpg


    These are the pics to show the time side, the time spring is loose, meaning its not placed yet until i get the order of the pinion correct, if you need more, just advise, once i get together, i will then post the pallet and crutch for assistance in setting that as well, its a fixed pallet with a set screw holding on the arbor, and i can adjust the crutch

    Thx for your help

    Neil
     
  5. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Flip the center barrel over, and I think you'll see how it all fits. That's all I can see that's wrong. You'll have to take the winding arbor out of it and turn it over too :)
     
  6. The General

    The General Registered User

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    I actually when i removed the back plate thought about that, however, that was exactly the way it was when i took the movement out, perhaps this was the issue to begin with, i will report back after i do that

    Thx

    Neil
     
  7. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    Neil

    You might be making work for yourself. All three barrels can be removed and replaced with the movement assembled.

    What do you mean by the "time spring"? The barrel on the going train is back-to-front as SB says; this and the one on the striking train should have teeth at the back.

    Likely problems with these clocks are worn holes in the barrels and covers that require bushing and the mainsprings tend to be "tired" and the outer holes cracked.

    All three mainsprings need to be removed and cleaned (can be done by hand), then lubricated with thin grease or thick oil like turret clock oil, same with their pivots and ratchets/clicks.

    Don't lubricate chime hammer pivots.

    Star spring on centre wheel probably needs re-tensioning as they appear to be made from mild steel!
     
  8. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Thx Mike, i meant the time barrel, when i bought this clock it would not run, the spring was in backwards as SB mentioned i had it all apart as to clean, it was after i re assembled that i had the issue noticed, i just switched Arbor and placed barrel cover back on. I will remove other two and clean as well, they are all let down and very simple to do. As far as the star spring, how would one re-tension that??. The movement appears to be in great shape, i have checked all bushings, holes etc for wear as per guidelines, but all is very tight, and the springs were like new, not a spec of rust to be found.

    I will let you all know how I make out.

    The next question is in regards to the pallet, at what point of the pendlum swing should the pallet tooth be deep in the escape wheel tooth??, the crutch is very easily adjusted and the pallet is fixed with a set screw on the arbor, which seems to be steel

    Thx again

    Neil
     
  9. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    That part will take care of itself when it's running and you are setting it in beat :)
     
  10. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    Unless the minute hand seems to move too easily, Neil, I'd leave it.
    The escapement should be as deep as possible by moving slackening the two screws on the back cock, but make sure it runs for a complete rotation on the escape wheel in case some of the tooth tips are bent.
    The screw on the anchor (hardened steel) is so you can put it in beat with the device behind the crutch central in the slot on the back plate. The crutch will move for a final beat setting.

    Good to hear the clock is in good condition; generally these don't have too much pivot wear so bushes not needed except for sometimes on the barrels and covers.

    Nothing fancy about Smiths but they were always well made and easy to repair. Probably the equivalent to Ford cars!
     
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  11. lirenrui

    lirenrui Registered User

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    yes, I agree,

    please contrast the two pictures, the time barrel is mistake,

    smiths.JPG DSC01830.jpg

    lirenrui
    2012.9.2
     
  12. Len Lataille

    Len Lataille Registered User
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    I agree.

    Examine the teeth of the time barrel. With the barrel in the wrong direction the teeth will not match with the pinion going up the train.
     
  13. The General

    The General Registered User

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    I was successful in getting back together, the time barrel spring arbor however appears to not exactly straight as for the washer to fit in the plate, anyone help with with how to straighten, i have a vice, tools etc, but just wanted to ask before i did anything i shouldnt

    Thx

    Neil
     
  14. Richard T.

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    Wiggle it around a bit and see if it doesn't fit properly.
     
  15. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Hi Richard

    Upon further review and with the help of a drill sizer, it looks as though the time arbor is on the chime side and the chime on the time side, to the eye they look nearly the same, however they are not, after supper i will re-open movement and change , i will let you know how i make out

    Neil
     
  16. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Neil I just did one of these. The time and strike windind arbors come out the cap side and the chime winding arbor comes out the side with the teeth.
     
  17. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Hi David

    I just messaged you, i am just needing a bit more clarification sorry

    NM
     
  18. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Neil. Perhaps you should scratch what I said. I just went and checked again, the movement that I just finished is a smiths P-K5A-1, your is a K6A. So I don't know if they are the same. Mine look like this. The winding squares are at the top.
    barrels.jpg
     
  19. The General

    The General Registered User

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    exact same Dave, its those darned wheel lol

    I will let u know how I do
     
  20. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Hi again!!!

    Well, i got all together, everything rolled together nicely, i wound the time spring, and attempted to set arbor and crutch, it still wont run, the issue appears to be that the arbor is not engaging the escape wheel, the wheel turns in a clockwise rotation if i do it by hand with the leader

    I have posted two pictures of the crutch as well as arbor for you to view, please let me know how I should set this correctly, i see no reason why it wont go

    Thx again

    Clock Crutch.jpg Clock Crutch 2.jpg
     
  21. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Lets start by having you set the crutch straight down, and moving the anchor (the part that moves back and forth) until both sides are the same distance from the escape wheel. Then try working the crutch by hand and see if the escape wheel is moving.
     
  22. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    Hi Neil

    Comments below:
    The escape wheel does run CW looking from the front as htere's only one wheel between it and the centre wheel.

    When assembling one of these, when I have all the wheels in and the plate nuts tightened, before assembling the barrels and pallets, I oil the pivots and then make sure all three trains run.
    Then I fit the barrels and give each wind a turn or so to distrubute the oil and make sure everything is OK.

    What washer? There's no washer associated with the barrels? :confused:

    On these and virtually every three train Napoleon made, the striking and going barrels, springs and arbors are identical, but the chiming one is larger. Easy to spot as you'll see the hook on the chiming arbor is the opposite way around and the inside part is a larger diameter.

    HTH.
     
  23. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Hi all, i will explain my issue, i have thought about it all night, and the crutch, arbor has to be the issue

    When i moved the arbor past the escape wheel it took off like no ones business, the trin worked perfect and it had not done that before, which leads me to belive that the former owner had the time barrel spring in backwards, and it needed a hell of a clean as all was gummed up and my solution was very dirty. I also oiled all pivot wells once together

    The escape wheel ran counter clockwise, and so the pallet when moving is forcing the opposite way and it is forcing not to run

    I will do as David mentioned and set the arbor nuetral with the crutch in the center position, the former person also had the crutch leader way off, and i have corrected that

    I will report back once i attempt

    Thx guys

    Neil
     
  24. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Hi again, here is the update, i think I am at the end of what I can do, but will explain what I have done today, this is driving me crazy as it should run!!!!

    I changed the pallet, it was mounted the wrong way, which explained the clockwise movement, as soon as I removed the pallet the time train ran likes nobody's business until the spring came down, i then placed all back on, set crutch in the middle, and winded spring up, it only took 10 turns to wind and was fully wound. I then placed the pendulum on and gave it a kick start so to speak, it ran, however it only ran a half revolution of the escape wheel, it did have a nice ticking sound when it ran, i then for an hour placed the Vermont on different angles , but it did not seem to make any difference, the issue is power i believe, meaning the swing of the crutch does not seem to keep it running, i thought with the way it ran without the pallet that it was going to work, as before i cleaned the movement, it would not even do that

    If any of you have any other ideas for me to try, please advise, i also would not be above mailing the movement to someone else to examine for me, and i would pay all shipping and other costs associated

    Thx in advance

    Neil
     
  25. David S

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    Neil I am trying to recall, but I think there is some adjustment on the cock that holds the suspension spring and the Verge pivot for adjustment to go deeper or to back off the EW. Did you try adjusting?
     
  26. The General

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    Hi David, yes i did try that, you can move it from side to side and back and forth, i have moved it 100 times as its probably something simple, it just seems like there is not enough power given to the escape wheel from the crutch, pendulum to keep it running, and if one adjusts it to one side, then the pallet wont work properly, it seems to have a very short stroke

    I might take a video of it and post tonight

    NM
     
  27. Bob Vance

    Bob Vance Registered User

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    Let off the springs. Remove the verge. Put a little bit of power to the time spring. Just enough to turn the escape wheel. I'm thinking you have a bent pivot. If they (the gears) spin freely I'm wrong. If your not getting smooth power to the es, you can adjust the crutch untill your blue in the face, but it still won't work!
    Bob
     
  28. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    It would be helpful at this point to see a video of the clock running. Make it close to the EW so we can see and hear what's happening. Post to Youtube, and reference the URL here.
     
  29. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    That's not how it works. Quite the converse. The escape wheel gives power to the pallets and therefore the crutch.

    Do what Bob says below and I said ages ago; remove the pallets with the spring let down, and make sure the going train runs with only a slight turn of the key.
    Unless that all works, anything about the escapement is irrelevant.

    Cart, then horse!
     
  30. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Mike

    As i have stated, it was all taken apart cleaned etc, the first noticed issue was the time spring barrel was in correctly placed by previous owner, so it was placed correctly as per instructions
    I did as Bob said, the time train runs perfectly even with little or no spring, i checked for wobbling pivots, there seems to be a slight wobble on the time arbor, meaning where the hands are placed, i examined and straightened and it runs in line now, so I am going to re-attch the verge and pallet and see what happens, I was sick and unable to do today, but hope to do tomorrow

    All is tight, I also am going to post a video of whats its doing as per shutterbug, which i feel is an excellent idea

    as per this staement- What washer? There's no washer associated with the barrels? :confused:, as you stated

    The arbor goes through a thick brass washer that sits in the middle of the plate, the arbor has a groove, its like a lock washer, the wheel then goes over arbor, then another piece of metal that holds it in place on front plate, i just thought i would explain that.

    Take care

    Neil
     
  31. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    That's the centre arbor and someone might have dropped the movement to cause it. I've just straightened one for a friend (who is a forum member).
    Excellent. The video needs to be close-ups of both pallets where they interact with the wheel and while you are moving the crutch SLOWLY. No good to see it just ticking away as too fast to see what's going on.
    Ah - I think I see. Your 'washer' is a brass collet with a shoulder which hold the front pivots of the barrel arbors to the hole in the plate so the barrel(s) can be removed without disturbing the plates. The wheel is the ratchet and the piece of metal the ratchet cock.
    Have I got it? :)
     
  32. The General

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    You got it!!!, see you know all the terminology, this is my first clock that i have ever attempted to repair, i have the clock repair primer book, but i find hands on the best way for me to learn, i have a bit of mechanical exp so i am not afraid, but I am learning lots daily and thank you all for your help and support, too bad your werent so far across the pond as we call it, you could examine for me lol

    I plan to do video today and then will post the url for link

    Thx Mike

    NM
     
  33. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    #33 Mike Phelan, Sep 6, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
    You're quite welcome, Neil. Don't be too concerned about the terminology thing as even here we have different names for things in different regions and that's not just clocks!
    In the North West here, hands are "fingers" and suspension springs are "feathers".

    If you read various books by authors from the same country the clock terms can be different (and sometimes confusing!) Witness the sticky thread here which has a mixture of standard USA terms and some from the earlier books by De Carle who lived here.

    We're off camping for the weekend so I won't see your video until Monday and you might have it sorted by then.
     
  34. The General

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    Ok guys, I have taken the videos, I am sorry there are so many, i have never posted to you tube before and i thought outting my camera on standby would make one video, not the case

    Anyway, i will show the time train running with very little to no power, then with power and then hooked up, you get the picture lol

    Here the links are in order:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW761_6BDCI&feature=plcp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9OlIwA-RKg&feature=plcp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIP7_fxqAw&feature=plcp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT5mUL0VEb0&feature=plcp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqoTniRUP44&feature=plcp


    And the conclusion
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBout0HuQrA&feature=plcp


    Thx so much

    Neil
     
  35. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    A couple of things jump out at me, Neil: First, it's badly out of beat. It can't keep running that way. Second, a better test of power when the verge is off is stopping the EW with your finger several times and gauge how fast (or sluggish) is is when re-starting. A good power supply will cause it to rapidly start again wherever you stop it.
     
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  36. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Hi Shutterbug

    I have done what you have said, it starts off and builds up with speed, not like a power tool??, what do you suggest I do now and is that beat setting very hard with that type of crutch set up??

    NM
     
  37. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Not sure what you mean, Neil. It starts sluggish and builds speed, or quickly starts every time? To set the beat, you just need to push the crutch toward the long side of the beat (or tilt the clock until it sound even then push it toward the high side). It's friction fit, and will move with a little pressure.
     
  38. Mike Phelan

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    Just watched the video, Neil.
    It is out of beat so you need to do what SB says. Also it looks as if the suspension spring is too short and the crutch is bent away from the back plate so the and of the crutch might be at the top end of the pendulum slot; that would stop it.
    The escapement is slightly shallow as well; the back cock/pallet bridge has oval holes so can be moved.

    If you let the spring down completely and remove the pallets will the going train run with half a turn of the key?

    That will prove if there's any loss of power anywhere, plus any problem with just one wheel.
     
  39. The General

    The General Registered User

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    Thx Mike,yes it will run with a very, very small amount of tension, it runs great

    I hate to ask, i just done know how to move the back cock/pallet holes??

    The beat is also confusing, I have read beat setting 101, the book etc but am wondering is there a very simple way to spell it out for me

    The crutch is bent at the top, i will remove from arbor and straighten, thx to all u guys for the help

    NM
     
  40. harold bain

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    I wouldn't think removing the crutch from the arbor is a good idea, or needed. Any bends that affect the clock usually can be straightened with a couple of pairs of pliers. The beat is set by making the overswing of the pendulum equal on both sides of the swing. You should be able to determine an out of beat condition by ear, raising one side then the other until the ticking is even. This will tell you which way to push the crutch to correct the problem. Push in the direction that you raised the clock to get a good beat. Its trial and error.
    The back cock should be adjusted carefully, as raising it too high will allow the excapewheel to freewheel and could result in bent teeth. Get a good beat first before playing with the anchor height.
     
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  41. Mike Phelan

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    Neil, it's just a matter of slackening the screws as the holes on the back cock are larger than the screws hence the large washers.
    Heed what Harold is saying above before doing this, though.

    I wonder if that has already happened?
     
  42. The General

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    Hi Guys

    I have taken the arbor and pallet off etc, now i have a question about the suspension spring, i removed it, it has a slight bend, but unlike a reed on an engine, this spring doesnt seem to have a lot of tension in it, meaning i can easily move it from side to side, now I am unsure how these work, so I am wanting to know what the standard is for a good spring. I would assume it needs to be very rigid and tight as to swing the crutch leader etc.

    Thx for any help, plus i did bend crutch more in and straightened at the friction joint as well as it was off

    NM
     
  43. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    the spring tension is not a big consideration. You can probably use the one you have just fine.
     
  44. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    Neil
    The spring is only there to avoid friction from a pivot, and is as light as possible without failure from a heavy bob (which is not the case here). If it's kinked because someone has moved the clock without taking the bob off it will make the pendulum wobble but won't stop the clock. The chops top and bottom should be able to move front-to-back but not side-to-side.

    Again, that's a minor consideration after you've got it working.
     
  45. The General

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    UPDATE!!!!

    Hi again, i thought I would update you with what I have done and since discovered

    I made many changes in the crutch, it still would not work, so i did a process of elimination steps, i took off the suspension spring as well as pendulum leader crutch that hooks into main crutch, once i took that off the clock ran very very fast with the crutch going as they do with pendulum off, I thought ok , then i placed pendulum leader back on with suspension spring in place, and, it was back to how it was, it wouldn't run, so my question is, what would you do next or what parts do I need??

    Thx guys in adavance

    NM
     
  46. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
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    Hi
    Most clocks, even warn out ones will run with the leader and pendulum removed.
    The suspension spring may have a slight curve in it but should not have sharp
    bends, especially near the mounting blocks. It should have no cracks as well.
    How are you doing at setting the beat. No pendulum clock will run correctly if at
    all without setting the beat right. It is often quite sensitive to even a small
    angles ( less that one degree ).
    Tinker Dwight
     
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  47. The General

    The General Registered User

    Aug 25, 2012
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    Retired Paramedic Manager
    Halifax, NS
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    I got it going, i am shocked lol, its been ticking for a day and night on the bench, i will assemble gears for chime train and then place back in case.

    I do require a minute hand for it, i know of timesavers, but wondering how i would get size correct??

    Thx guys and anymore hints of what to do please advise, i would not have done this without this forum

    NM
     
  48. The General

    The General Registered User

    Aug 25, 2012
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    Retired Paramedic Manager
    Halifax, NS
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    Guess i jumped the gun, it ran for about 8 hrs, and now its quit again, i am at a loss of what to do next, i am wondering if i should attempt to take out the spring in the barrel for cleaning, i see what tool to use on line, the Ollie machine, but nothing like that here, so unsure what to use, i have a vice etc, but thats all

    Let me know what u guys think i should do next, i am at a loss really of why it stopped, i was so excited lol

    NM
     
  49. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
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    Calif. USA
    Hi
    Do a search for spring winder on the MB. You'll find
    some better cost effective winder options.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  50. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Dec 18, 2011
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    Brockville, On Canada
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    To follow up on Tinker's advice,I would go with the Joe Collin's winder if you are going to search.
     

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