Small size ruby pallets.

[Kevin W.]

I am repairing a French clock, Japy Freres. It has the escape wheel between the plates. One steel pallet was broken and a past repair was made. It does not work. I was thinking of replacing with ruby pallets, but cannot find anything the size needed, about .052 inch. Anyone know of a supplier or do i have to make a steel pallet.

 

[shutterbug]

A drill bit base part will work fine. Flatten one side.

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

afaik the Brocot escapement with the ew between the plates allways used steel pallets,only those with visible escapements came with ruby pallets.Are You affraid of wearing out an original steel pallet?
Best
Burkhard

 

[wow]

Kevin, Like Burkhard, I have never seen a ruby pallet between the plates of a French clock. How do you know what size you need? Does the original have round pallets? Photo?

Merritt's sells synthetic ruby pallets in two sizes, I believe.

 

[Kevin W.]

I have seen the synthetic pallets, none are small enough to work. I think i will just make one from steel, but wondering how difficult to get the D shape. I thought replacement might be easier than making one. Trying to keep costs down a bit for a customer and speed up the job. No i have not seen jewelled pallets between the plates either, just thought a good choice.

 

[wow]

So how do you plan to make a pallet? Will you use an outside escapement verge with pallet holes already there? Just curious.

 

[shutterbug]

How do you know what size you need? Does the original have round pallets? Photo?

Merritt's sells synthetic ruby pallets in two sizes, I believe.

I believe the size is determined by the distance between teeth. 40% of that distance.

 

[wow]

OK. I am having a senior moment, I guess. I do not understand. Is the original escape wheel ( between the plates) there? If so, unless it is different from most French movement escape wheels, an outside escapement ruby pallet escapement will not work. They are totally different escapements. You mentioned a former repairer. Did he install a different type pallet assembly and you are trying to make it work? I would love to see a photo.

 

[Kevin W.]

Yes i realize between the plate is different. He made a make up of a pallet but it does not work. Will get pic up later. From what i know i will make a pallet to replace the bad one, at least i have one that is un touched to get measurements from.

 

[shutterbug]

I don't think you're having a senior moment, Will. Somehow, we diverted to discussing Brocot styles of escapements, which is as you point out, not the logical style for a between the plates escapement. A pic would clear things up. There was a recent discussion about ruby pallets being used on deadbeat anchors. Maybe that's what Kevin is referring to.

 

[Kevin W.]

Here is a picture of what i have. A clock repair person suggested to me to go with ruby pallets as maybe i did not explain clear enough. In this picture the larger pallet is the original pallet.

 

[wow]

Now I understand, Kevin. It is a pin style pallet. Does the pin have a flat side or is it round? Do you have the broken piece? If you do, perhaps you can re-attach it..

 

[Kevin W.]

It has a flat, so i am thinking make a copy. maybe remove the good one and make a temp plate. Use pivot stock perhaps.

 

[harold bain]

It is a Brocot escapement. Only difference between this and a visible escapement is that it is located between the plates. The two pallets should be identical, and be angled towards the center of the excapewheel pivot.

 

[Kevin W.]

Thanks Harold for the confirmation. I have my work cut out for me.

 

[wow]

Do you have the broken brass section of the verge? I think getting the pin pallet out may be tough without damaging it or the brass around it. Why not make a templet of the broken piece, if you don' t have it and then make the new piece, and insert a piece of pinion wire which has a flat side on the exterior section? You can attach it to the original by drilling two small holes in each piece and insert small pivot rods, securing with loc-rite or silver solder. Just a thought. Much easier said than done!!!!

 

[Kevin W.]

The verge is not broken. Just the replaced pallet is wrong.
I was going to just tap it out , the bad pallet. I have David Labounty,s dvd on Brocot Escapements so it helps a lot to under stand it.

 

[wow]

OK. I am not seeing it right in the photo. Show us your finished product.

 

[Kevin W.]

I am not finished, i have not started yet, this is how it looks now.

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

Your pic shows the "verge" from sideways,please show a pic staight inline with the anchor shaft.Are You sure Your second pallet is wrong or could it be its just wrongly orientated? The pallets could be shellaqued in like in the open escapements,before "tap it out" I´d try with gentle heat and/or alcohol/acetone to dissolve the shellaque.Just an idea though..
Burkhard

 

[Kevin W.]

Hello Burkhard. The owner stated one pallet was broken off and a attempt was made to replace it. I will try to get a picture of what you asked.
I am still thinking if i can find them i would like to replace both pallets with jewelled pallets. But if it can,t be done that,s ok too.

 

[Kevin W.]

The owner emailed me and said not to bother repairing. As he will do what he has done with other clocks. Replace the movement with a quartz movement.
He paid 225 dollars and figures he has too much in it to justify a repair. And does not wish to pay what i feel is fair for this job.

 

[shutterbug]

And another one bites the dust! :bang:

 

[Kevin W.]

If he gets rid of the movement i will ask him for it.
I dont understand his reasoning.

 

[harold bain]

Any time someone says " the last repairman couldn't fix it", I get two voices in my head. One says run like hell, and the other says, Oh boy a challenge. Unfortunately I usually listen to the second one.

 

[Kevin W.]

He has done his share of damage to the clock, using vise grips instead of a screw driver . He can have it back. It,s all packed and waiting for him to pick it up. I guess he thought it would be a cheap repair job.

 

[Fitzclan]

It is unfortunate that this clock will probably be tossed out by someone down the line. With a quartz fit-up it will be virtually of no value. When the battery dies, out it will go. Too bad. This repair is far from impossible.

This type will likely throw the movement away or stick it in a box in the attic only to be thrown away by his successors after the case is sold for a few bucks at a garage sale.

I remember when I was young, the family across the street was spring cleaning and on top of the pile of junk waiting for trash pick up was a 30 hr. Shelf clock complete with weights. I snatched it and toyed with it for hours but had no clue back then how to proceed. I'm sure it could have been saved without much work but I was too young to know how. Eventually it probably ended up on the trash pile when my folks moved. And so it goes...

 

[ALR guy]

It is unfortunate that this clock will probably be tossed out by someone down the line. With a quartz fit-up it will be virtually of no value. When the battery dies, out it will go. Too bad. This repair is far from impossible.

This type will likely throw the movement away or stick it in a box in the attic only to be thrown away by his successors after the case is sold for a few bucks at a garage sale.

I remember when I was young, the family across the street was spring cleaning and on top of the pile of junk waiting for trash pick up was a 30 hr. Shelf clock complete with weights. I snatched it and toyed with it for hours but had no clue back then how to proceed. I'm sure it could have been saved without much work but I was too young to know how. Eventually it probably ended up on the trash pile when my folks moved. And so it goes...

Not sure if this post will be arrived too late. I am wrestling with exactly the same issue of the original post. Old French movement with Brocot escapement between the plates. Wanted to replace worn (grooved) steel pallets with ruby. Reasoning was that the friction would be considerably lower with Ruby and they would last much longer. Also was anxious to practice my skill at mounting the ruby pallets with molten shellac. Have not been able to find the small diameter Ruby pallets needed - 1.2mm.

 

[Carl Bergquist]

The pallets are supposed to be semi circles. In your one picture the far pallet sure looks too thin to be a semi circle. Porter has a small book on how to make new pallets and determining size. I had a Neuchalet clock with the pin pallet Brocot escapement that ran me in circles for a long time, when I finally measured the pins and found that they were no where near what theory said correct pins made the clock happy. If you get the movement I would stay away from the jewel pins between the plates, they are hard to adjust when they are out front without snapping. Good luck.

 

[ALR guy]

Hi Carl, gosh that was a fast response! Thanks so much. Your comment about the delicacy of the ruby pallets really hits home. Absolutely sure I would break one or more trying to adjust the escapement. Following the 80/10/10 rule I get a target pallet diameter of 0.0415“. Notwithstanding the appearance of the pallets in the photograph both are D shaped cross-section. Actual post measurements are 0.0455” and flat height measures 0.0250

Hopefully I can get away with the slightly oversized pallet diameter. My plan is to push both pallets out of the anchor approximately 0.020 inches so as to allow the escapement wheel teeth to engage a non-worn surface (correctly stated would be partially engage).

 

[shutterbug]

I would just replace with new metal ones. They will probably outlast you
A drill bit of the exact same diameter would work. Make the flat parts with a grinder. Don't anneal.