Small carrier dogs clamps for watch work

Kevin Scott

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Couple people are making or plan to make clamps along the Bergeon No. 30090 style. There has been some question about how thick the metal should be.

I measured my set of 12. The thickness ranges from .40mm to .51mm. The thickness and the size of the holes do not correspond. In other words, the smaller hole diameters do not use thinner metal. Most are .45mm.

The largest diameter work that can be held is about 1.1mm.

Couple things I have noticed with this set:

Each clamp has two different size holes for work. The graduations between size of holes is very small.

If you try to fit oversize work into a hole, the clamp will break - crack.

Even with the right size hole, you can have slipping problems. If so, probably best to use super glue with the clamp versus going to an undersize clamp hole and risk breaking the clamp.

In summary, the range of work diameter size each clamp can use is very very small. Good to keep this in mind when making them and using them.


Before buying my Bergeon set, I had made a opener -closer and three clamps. Made one clamp out of hard brass and worked well. Other two from steel. Then saw a Bergeon dealer at a watch show selling the set for $125.00, brand new. ( it was around 1999-2002 I think) It was an easy decision to buy it versus spending time making clamps. But now the set is $250.00? Doubt I would buy it at that price. Instead would use DeweyC system of brass and super glue. Make them as you need them. And make the drilled hole only very slightly larger than the diameter you are holding. Use a reamer -broach for final size.

I think making tools is very good experience for someone learning watch repair. Teaches you filing, drilling, etc skills. And planning work out. Thinking skills. And helps you later to recognize quality well designed tools. But I can see why a full time watchmaker would not make tools he can buy. Personally, I limit my tool making to tools I can not buy, or not available with the quality or features I want.
 

WatchmakerWannaBe

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Great post Kevin - thanks for posting it!

I now know I'm on the right track with my spring dogs. I would love to buy that Bergeon set with the nice box holder/opener, but there are quite a number of good tools that I've had to have/buy, so if I can make them myself, I have to at least try....And you're right, it's great practice. My opener is a cheap pair of snap ring pliers...they work on thinner spring dogs, so they should work fine on the thicker material (I've got some 0.47 mm spring...it will make a big supply of dogs).
 

Dushan Grujich

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Couple people are making or plan to make clamps along the Bergeon No. 30090 style. There has been some question about how thick the metal should be.

I measured my set of 12. The thickness ranges from .40mm to .51mm. The thickness and the size of the holes do not correspond. In other words, the smaller hole diameters do not use thinner metal. Most are .45mm.

The largest diameter work that can be held is about 1.1mm.

G'Day Kevin!

You are both right and wrong.

I have a set of carriers supplied by Favorite and later by Bergeon and they both were made according to the specs. Nowadays, Bergeon supplies inferior material, probably made someplace in the far east.

Carrier sizes are listed in the chart below.

drivers 02.jpg

Also, the quality of workmanship of the carriers one can buy today is not at all comparable, have a look at the close up image of one from the old set.

Carrier driver 01.jpg

The image below, of the mixed set of carriers, containing good and not so good carriers. New carriers are of mixed thicknesses, e.g. 0.85 mm carrier of 0.40 mm thickness etc., warped, unevenly blued, with burrs left by drilling and sawing, some were rusted. Thus in the end, in order to correct what could be corrected, I spent the amount of time about equal in value to the amount I paid Bergeon for the new set that was meant to serve as eventual replacement of the old one.

So I ended up mostly picking carriers from the old set when needed to hold work-piece.

Lathe drivers and openner 01.jpg

Cheers

Dushan
 

Kevin Scott

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G'Day Kevin!

You are both right and wrong.





Cheers

Dushan
Dushan, not sure what part of my info you feel is wrong.
I do see my thickness measurements do not correspond to the Bergeon specs. My measurements are what my set measures. I carefully used a JKA Feinstater dial bench micrometer. Rechecked the measurements again, because they did not make sense since there was not a relationship between the thickness and the hold sizes, as I would have expected. Sort of confirms what you are saying about Bergeon quality and finish.

None of my carrier claps look nicely finished like your picture of an example from an old set. They look like the ones in the bottom picture. Burrs etc. Like I said, my set is at least 10 years old.

I agree that Bergeon quality can be hit or miss. Bought a Bergeon hand held dial micrometer just to use to make accurate measurements of work in the lathe. The micrometer is pictured in Jendritzki's lathe book. It was expensive, about $300 -$350?? over 10 years ago. Had to order it. But I wanted something that was accurate and dependable for taking measurements that are hard to do with other measuring tools. I was shocked that right out of the box the repeatability was very poor, even when taking measurements not on the lathe where various factors can throw off the results. Looked the tool over, and could see the spindle was not tight, had sideshake. This makes it impossible to get repeatability. Sent the tool back, they acknowledged it was defective. After about three weeks, got it back. Spindle was tight, but I still don't have the same confidence in its accuracy as I do with the JKA Feinstater. I bit disappointed. At that price, I thought I would get a gauge that I had total confidence in. Scared to see what that tool costs now.

Personally, I don't think you can assume a tool must be high quality just because it is stamped Bergeon, even if it was made in the 1950's. Newer stuff, made in the last 15 years or so, seems more likely to be of not so great quality.

The chart is interesting. I see there is .05mm steps in hole sizes. After seeing the chart, I think it would make sense to measure and mark with the size, each of my clamps, and go by that when picking out a clamp to use. Versus the trial and error system that I have been using. Faster to use, less likely to break a clamp, or have a clamp slip.
 

Dushan Grujich

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Dushan, not sure what part of my info you feel is wrong.
Kevin,

Perhaps I should have been clearer.

The only thing You were wrong about was the expectation to have something done right when it comes from Bergeon, at least that was my impression. :) Nevertheless, I'm talking out of personal experience, having more than one dearly paid mistake.

Personally, I don't think you can assume a tool must be high quality just because it is stamped Bergeon, even if it was made in the 1950's.
I agree, almost completely. However, I must say that things were quite a bit different quality-wise while Bergeon still had competition from Swiss as well as from German companies.

Cheers

Dushan
 

Dushan Grujich

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The chart is interesting. I see there is .05mm steps in hole sizes. After seeing the chart, I think it would make sense to measure and mark with the size, each of my clamps, and go by that when picking out a clamp to use. Versus the trial and error system that I have been using. Faster to use, less likely to break a clamp, or have a clamp slip.
I forgot to mention, Horia makes an interesting holder for the carriers, which can be used to easily select the one wanted. Namely, carriers are being held in the holder individually, which makes choice much easier.

Cheers

Dushan
 
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WatchmakerWannaBe

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This is a great thread!

My first spring dog from thicker mainspring (0.47mm) is working well - grips the stock very tight. But it takes a while to make them... And to make them faster and in greater numbers, I will be forced to buy more tools - a micro drill press, and a larger selection of carbide drill bits (so I won't have to hand broach each hole to fit a particular dimension of stock).

Now that I know I can make them, perhaps it would be better to simply buy a set rather than invest even more money in additional tools that I need to make my own... The time it's going to take to make a set is extreme - even with the right tools...

Does anyone have an idea of why the holes for holding the work on these Bergeon carriers are recessed? It seems to me, that the recessed hole would potentially weaken the grip on stock...
 

WatchmakerWannaBe

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It looks like Horia carries carriers individually...and they look more similar to the one I just made:

pic4.jpg

It also looks like their carriers come in a couple of dozen varieties (single size stock for each). The price is not too bad. I'm thinking about it...
 

Kevin Scott

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To make them, I don't think is hard to do, and can be done without any expensive tools.

First, using clock mainspring of the right thickness seems like a good idea. But I would it anneal first, even though the temper of the mainspring is probably about right for the finished clamps. Use a jewelers saw to shape and make the slot. Then drill and broach holes to size. Finish with files and stones. Then harden and temper to blue. No special tools or equipment needed.

The Horia clamps seem to be about $10 each. Plus shipping. Don't know what that would be. Seems unlikely that you can make one in less than 45 minutes. But after making five, maybe you could get your production time to a half hour. Or maybe by cutting out and filing etc four or five at once by clamping or glueing them together, you could get the time for each to even less than a half hour each. Seems to me that would be the best way to do it. But drill and broach each to size individually.

I don't know why the clamp pictured above has the hole recessed. Don't sees how it helps anything.

Not sure if it would be better to drill and broach the holes before or after making the slot. If drilled after making the slot, need to make sure the drill is not spreading the clamp as you drill. Maybe by drilling with the clamp glued to a piece of brass. Or make some kind of fixture to keep the clamp from opening.

Or give DeweyC 's system a try. He is happy with it, and has used the Bergeon system.
 

WatchmakerWannaBe

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Thanks Kevin.

On the dog above, I cut the slot first and then drilled the holes. It worked out well because the drill bit I used was sufficiently undersized...so even if drilling spread the dog (while drilling), the hole was still too small for the intended stock and had to be broached to fit. I think the broaching could be minimized though if the right drill bits were used.

I can see making a few of these as I need them...No special tools required if I'm only looking at a few. But I'm seriously looking at buying that Horia set - not too much money, and I can modify my own snap ring pliers to work as an opener. And I can make what I end up needing if it's not in the set...
 

davestanda

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I made a few of these carriers as well,, but instead of using a jewelers saw to cut out the shape , i used my flex tool grinder...I felt that grinding them to shape was easier..I then used the jewerlers saw to cut the slit down the middle..I first made a lever to open the carriers ,like bergeon's tool. Now i think i want to maike one like horia's with the knob..I think it would be a good milling project...


By the way, does anyone know of any local hardware chain type store, like ace, that carriers jeweler saw blades?? I need a get some more...
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Couple people are making or plan to make clamps along the Bergeon No. 30090 style. There has been some question about how thick the metal should be.

I measured my set of 12. The thickness ranges from .40mm to .51mm. The thickness and the size of the holes do not correspond. In other words, the smaller hole diameters do not use thinner metal. Most are .45mm.

The largest diameter work that can be held is about 1.1mm.

Couple things I have noticed with this set:

Each clamp has two different size holes for work. The graduations between size of holes is very small.

If you try to fit oversize work into a hole, the clamp will break - crack.

Even with the right size hole, you can have slipping problems. If so, probably best to use super glue with the clamp versus going to an undersize clamp hole and risk breaking the clamp.

In summary, the range of work diameter size each clamp can use is very very small. Good to keep this in mind when making them and using them.


Before buying my Bergeon set, I had made a opener -closer and three clamps. Made one clamp out of hard brass and worked well. Other two from steel. Then saw a Bergeon dealer at a watch show selling the set for $125.00, brand new. ( it was around 1999-2002 I think) It was an easy decision to buy it versus spending time making clamps. But now the set is $250.00? Doubt I would buy it at that price. Instead would use DeweyC system of brass and super glue. Make them as you need them. And make the drilled hole only very slightly larger than the diameter you are holding. Use a reamer -broach for final size.

I think making tools is very good experience for someone learning watch repair. Teaches you filing, drilling, etc skills. And planning work out. Thinking skills. And helps you later to recognize quality well designed tools. But I can see why a full time watchmaker would not make tools he can buy. Personally, I limit my tool making to tools I can not buy, or not available with the quality or features I want.
Kevin

My personal experience and opinion is as follows.

First, I seldom place micro parts , be it Horological or other on centers requiring a drive dog. I find this to be inefficient and inaccurate in most cases when compared to other methods. I should clarify that I am speaking only of Micro parts since I use centers quite often with much larger parts.

When centers and or drives are required for Micro parts, I find commercial drive options to be Large, cumbersome and work envelope restrictive. In addition, the large size of the drives has needlessly placed the parts in greater danger of damage.

For these reasons, I machine an appropriate size simple sleeve and threaded stud similar to the example in the attached photo. If drive dog balance is desirable for high speeds, I simply thread another hole at 180 degrees and add a identical stud.

Jerry Kieffer
 

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WatchmakerWannaBe

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Hi Jerry.

I've seen this picture of your drive dog before on another thread - very nice! What kind of tool do you use to tighten the stud (tiny) to the stock/piece?

I'm in the process of learning the old fashioned way - using turns...It's too bad that this sort of tiny drive dog was not available on the market. I would much prefer it to spring dogs...but given my limited skills and knowledge, I can make spring dogs only...
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Hi Jerry.

I've seen this picture of your drive dog before on another thread - very nice! What kind of tool do you use to tighten the stud (tiny) to the stock/piece?

I'm in the process of learning the old fashioned way - using turns...It's too bad that this sort of tiny drive dog was not available on the market. I would much prefer it to spring dogs...but given my limited skills and knowledge, I can make spring dogs only...



To tighten the studs, I use either a small pin vise or a Balance screw holder.

Jerry Kieffer
 

WatchmakerWannaBe

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To tighten the studs, I use either a small pin vise or a Balance screw holder.

Jerry Kieffer
Of course...! I have just the balance screw holder/starter tool...an old K&D 2 jaw, balance screw starter tool (with the blade in the center)...nice tool - perfect for the job (so long as stud has a slot for the blade).

I am going to look into seeing if I can get some lathe drivers made at my local college machine shop...sometimes, students are allowed to make tools for people as a form of homework assignment... They have made tools for me in the past - not watch repair related.
 

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