Simplex 91-5 Clock

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by ibm clock, Sep 23, 2007.

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  1. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    No, just 3 nuts and lockwashers hold the complete assembly to the backplate, then the movement itself is held with 3 nuts and one screw.
     
  2. ibm clock

    ibm clock Registered User

    Sep 5, 2005
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    Ok, no grommets or spacers for movement mounting. Got clock to run on spring. amazing what a bit of oil can do. How long is is supposed to run on a full wind? It's been going almost 12 hours now.

    Think I got contacts adjusted to where supposed to be. Got problem with program unit. Solenoid that advances motor, the contacts with that are burned. When contacts make, arc and smoke. So somethings not right.

    Swapped master relay(open coil) with one of the bell relays. Replaced grommets on relays. Got my slave clock from ebay, so as soon as I put the master back together, I can try it out. Program unit is for another day.



    Tony
     
  3. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Tony, these movements are usually good for about 9 hours, so 12 hours is exceptional. Remove and clean the winding parts and reoil, checking for freedom of movement. Is that wind motor turning now? These are often in need of replacement. Is yours a rotor and field or a synchron motor?
    Beware of arc and smoke:eek: Could be something shorted. These contacts normally spark a bit, and commonly need replacing. Shorting the contacts should make the program motor turn. I have never had to replace this motor, so unless someone has screwed up the wiring, it may only be the contacts that need help.
     
  4. ibm clock

    ibm clock Registered User

    Sep 5, 2005
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    Wind motor does run. Both motors are synchrons.

    The program motors contact are pretty well worn. More so than the minute impulse contact.

    Need back-up washers to mount transformer, as it was ripped off in shipping to me, and enlarged mounting hole on transformer. Off to hardware store I go.
     
  5. ibm clock

    ibm clock Registered User

    Sep 5, 2005
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    IT WORKS!!.

    Connected slave clock. It works. Slave movement is a bit sluggish. Now I need to finish assembling it into the case and find wall space.

    Program unit is next. Hopefully that works.
     
  6. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Way to go, Tony. You could put a bit of oil to the pivots on your slave, but sluggish is normal on some of the older movements.
     
  7. fdew

    fdew Registered User

    Jul 12, 2007
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    Did you buy the IBM slave on Ebay with the movement that looks like a donut? Black round movement contacts ride on a dlack plastic cam in the center?

    Frank
     
  8. ibm clock

    ibm clock Registered User

    Sep 5, 2005
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    "Did you buy the IBM slave on Ebay with the movement that looks like a donut? Black round movement contacts ride on a dlack plastic cam in the center?"



    Yes, that's what I have.



    Tony
     
  9. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Tony, don't bother oiling that movement. If it works, enjoy it. This was not one of IBM's better designs for slave clock movements. Sluggishness was just one of the problems with these.
     
  10. fdew

    fdew Registered User

    Jul 12, 2007
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    One thing you can try on that movement. Gently lift all three contacts off the plastic cam, let it impulse once, If it works a lot better, then you can play with adjusting the contacts for a very light drag on the cam. Also, I used to put a touch of Teflon no slip on the cam. Didn't hurt. When looking at clocks on Ebay, look closely for the knurled nut. A knurled nut in that vintage case means that movement. Earlier ones were a different case, later ones had the hex nut and a Simplex movement.

    If you get a chance to buy one, the IBM shown in the link (on the right) is the best they ever made. (In my opinion) I have some from the 20s that are still in use.

    The movement on the left is a Synchronome.

    Frank

    http://lbpinc.com/Synchronome/sync%20-%20IBM.jpg
     
  11. caperace

    caperace Registered User

    Nov 1, 2006
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    Frank isn't the one on the right more of a heavy duty tower clock movement rather than a wall clock movement. It look like the one that Simplex was using in it's tower clocks and heavy duty clocks.

    Jim
     
  12. fdew

    fdew Registered User

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    I think it may have depended on where you were (a little guess work here). There was a IBM clock on ebay with one coil and much less metal then this one from about the same period.
    Here in upstate NY every IBM clock I saw before the "Donut movement" was either the one in the picture, or a older version that had a different correction switch. I even have a few 10 in clocks with this movement. Later clocks used steel plates instead of brass but were the same style. For those who are not familiar with the clock, the armature is rotated between two fixed poles. Therefor, it never touches them causing residual magnetism problems, and it is almost lifted up in it's pivots so it has even less force on it when energized then when at rest. It is a remarkable piece of engineering.

    Later, after the merge, It was known as a heavy duty movement and I would see them in large open face clocks in schools ETC. BTW There was also a similar movement that had a fan escarpment. I have one of these around here somewhere. Again, I realize that the x simplex guyes know this stuff.

    When I worked for Simplex if these clocks were in a school that was being remodeled, they were thrown away. I collected as many as I could in a number of cases. Paint over copper over brass, steel, wood sq and round, and more. I got so many I didn't know just what to do with them. Then our church started a school and needed a clock system so I installed them in the new rooms. They are all still there together with a lot of newer Simplex clocks put in as we expanded. I enjoy the collection as I walk around the building.

    Frank
     
  13. caperace

    caperace Registered User

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    Hi Frank, I was with Simplex from 1963 until 2001 when Tyco took over. I spent 20 years in the Boston office, 15 years in the New Hamphire office and the last 3 in the Worcester office. I was with the time equipment division all that time and did little with the fire alarm division. I have a number of wall clocks , mostly Simplex a few IBM. Only 1 wood case wall clock a Standard . I have some copper IBM, and regular impulse IBM's ,but mostly a lot of Simplex.
    I saved most everything, however I got rid of all the mechanical masters and only kept the later models which were electronic masters (2350/6400)

    My original intention was to rebuild all these and donate them to a museum, however my late wife passed away and I remarried and life is quite different the second time around.

    I have kept a woodcase payroll recorder for each of my 4 son's. My main interest is in Time Stamps as a good part of my time was spent in the financial district in Boston servicing these machines.

    I have a number of Simplex wall clocks that need repair and will trade if anyone has the interest, most are sync. wired. or electronic also a few IBM's I also have a number of parts for wall clocks and masters and instructions.

    Thanks
    Jim
     
  14. fdew

    fdew Registered User

    Jul 12, 2007
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    Hi

    It sounds like you had a fun carrier at Simplex. What sort of a time division did you leave behind? From the web site, it seems like it isn't to much of the business any more. I have lost track of how much Simplex is in the schools.

    I am always looking for impulse clocks for our Christian School.
    If you like, please email me at frank @ lbpinc.com, (Without the spaces)
    Perhaps I have something that you would like in trade.

    I have some odd non IBM stuff, Standard pendulum master movement only, wood bell boards, ETC. I probably need to start some ebaying.

    Frank
     
  15. ibm clock

    ibm clock Registered User

    Sep 5, 2005
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    Would one of you gentlemen be able to spare a set of contacts for the program motor? Mine are so worn, there are no more points left on the contact strips.

    Can anyone explain how all the contacts on the program unit interact with each other?

    Thanks.


    Tony
     
  16. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Tony, send me a PM, and I will fix you up with a set of contacts. Be aware they need to be fitted (bent) to work properly, and are not the easiest to install. Program contacts: you have 6 that correspond with the 6 circuits of bells. They are activated by the program bars on the drum. There is a set of contacts on the left that are the day contacts. If the day is not broken out of the program bar, they will be opened, not allowing bells. There is a microswitch. This is for regulation, and works with the A and B line to correct the program. There is an arm contact under the feed pawl that opens when the program is advancing, shutting the activating contacts off while it advances.
     
  17. caperace

    caperace Registered User

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    Frank I tried e mailing you but it came back . My e mail address is lanejim@comcast.net

    Jim
     
  18. fdew

    fdew Registered User

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    I have heard that we don't appreciate the things around us that will be antiques some day. I heard stories about wood telephones, and wood slave clocks being broken up and old pendulum clocks being thrown in the trash. I couldn't understand it and never thought I would be involved. Years ago I bought a 91-4 at a flea market (We couldn't legally take home a trade in master and actually use it in a school) I installed it in our church school, and saved a few 803s and 090 movements to keep it going. When I replaced it with a trade in solid state master after starting my own business I threw away all the old parts. now, here we are with a man restoring a 803? I need to hang on to the 805s I have and even the cub cadet tractor I mowed the lawn with for 20 years. Life is interesting.

    Frank
     
  19. ibm clock

    ibm clock Registered User

    Sep 5, 2005
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    Frank, too bad I'm using only in my house with a few clocks and hopefully a bell. I would like to actually put it too use again at my old grade school, but it has a deactivated electronic system and would have to rewire everything to make it work. But, with family members no longer working at the school, I think I'll put that idea to rest.

    I find old electro-mechanical items interesting. I like the challenge of putting something back in service that hasn't worked in years.
     
  20. fdew

    fdew Registered User

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    I completely understand your interest in them. They are a wonderful electromechanical device that did amazing things back when there was no other way to do it. I just laugh at my self and my indifference to them at the time. I worked on to many I guess. I had one call from a school who had two 803s They would switch one off and the other one on for assembly days. They had about 45 bells and wanted to go to a two day schedule with every other day different (a repeat every other week day) This works out to a different schedule each week
    first week Monday is sch 1 ETC Second week Monday is sch 2 I told my boss that I had made it automatic be programing the 803s to run every other day. He told me it was impossible. It may take you a minute to figure out how I did it.

    Frank
     
  21. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Frank, did you use a toggle relay to switch between the 2 803's, triggered daily? That would set it up to be on the opposite program each Monday. I got a headache thinking about this:bang:
    Didn't you love programming these when every space on the program drum was full:thumb:
     
  22. fdew

    fdew Registered User

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    I could never understand how the schools could use 55 or 60 bells. On the other hand, remember being handed 3 schedules that had to be collated together for a school that ran either 1,2 or 2,3 ETC for different days? That was a headache. Even as a young guy I had trouble programing them in a noisy office. more then once I would take the drum out to the car to do it.

    For the every other day program I used a trick I learned from a mistake If the last bell was at 3:10 PM then I put in a bar set for 3:05 PM with no bells. The 803 would just have to sit there banging on that bar for almost 24 hrs before it could get by. Set up the second 803 the same way but put the drum in just after that bar and the two 803s were 1 day out of phase. In other words, each 803 only worked every other day.

    BTW The mistake was that at least once I put a bar in out of order and I would get a call that it worked for 1/2 day then quit. (This caused a red spot on my forehead from slapping my self. (Grin)

    BTW I would often take a used bar and brake out all the bells and set it for any time between midnight and the first bell the next morning. My thinking was that if I didn't do this, then the 803 hammered on that first bar all night and at a few times there was just one or two fingers keeping it from going through. I thought that if the 803 was adjusted a bit off it might jump through once in a while. I don't remember if it ever happened or if I just thought it would, but the extra bar meant it had to fail twice in one night to mess up.
     
  23. ibm clock

    ibm clock Registered User

    Sep 5, 2005
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    Are any of the Standard Electric clocks compatible with IBM/Simplex minute impulse? How can I identifiy which ones are, if any are compatible.
     
  24. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Can't help you there. I've never seen them mixed, and we didn't have any impulse standard clocks in my area.
     
  25. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Frank, great solution, never thought of that:thumb: your way doesn't require using a bell circuit, as mine would have.
     
  26. fdew

    fdew Registered User

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    Most of the early non IBM stuff had no correction. some I have seen had a second coil that lifted the advance and stop paws from the 60 tooth "gear" allowing a weight to pull the clock to 59, or 00

    In the 60s many companies made clocks that were compatible.

    The only way I know of is to run one IBM or Simplex clock and then connect the other brands in parallel with the COIL after the correction contacts. That is for the 24 volt slaves, for lower voltage, use resistors in series with the non simplex slaves.

    Of course this only works with minute impulse slaves. not with the European systems that used 1/2 minuet impulse.

    Frank
     
  27. BMWMetro

    BMWMetro New Member

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    I have some of those 803 bars. Any takers?
     

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