Simon Wittner or Pony Express System

[clarionite]

Can someone point me in the right direction to find information on Simon Wittner clocks and or the Pony Express System in Yorktown New York?

I've aquired a beautiful round wall clock with an oak case. I've found two other clocks through internet searches that say they were Simon Wittner clocks. They had different types of cases, but the workings looked the same. I can't find anything about where Simon Wittner was located, what years the clocks were made, or anything about the company that glued a card to the back with a hand written clock number, Hand written "Simon Wittner" and printed "Circa 1900 Regulator".

I'm always interested in the history of a clock when I get it, This one seems to have an elusive history.

 

[Grant Perry]

Hello Clarionite,
Welcome to the NAWCC message board.
Would you have a picture of your clock that you could post?
I have no information on your clock; however with a picture someone here may be able to help.
The only clock marked with "Pony Express" that I remember seeing as was an Asian manufactured model.
Best regards and good luck!
Grant

 

[clarionite]

Grant,

I can take some pictures this afternoon.

Thanks,

Marty

 

[Charles E. Davis]

The only information I have is from the old advertisements that they used to run in the antique and nostalgia magazines in the 1970's. The headlines often ran "One of America's last great antique buys." You got a numbered and registered certificate claiming "a turn of the century antique."
The company was located at 2986 Navajo Street, Yorktown, N.Y 10598.
They showed the 4 common Japanese wall clock styles that were flooding the American market at that time. Their advertized prices were from $110 to $135 plus $6.00 UPS delivery.
I have no clue who Simon Wittner was but someone was a clever marketer. These clocks show up quite often.

 

[harold bain]

Interesting, Charles. I have one of these "Certificate of Age and Ownership" documents that came with a Japanese short drop clock that a customer gave me. It is from 1978, and is signed by our mysterious Simon Wittner. The certificate guarantees the clock to be a genuine circa 1900 antique, and looks pretty official It is from the Pony Express System, 2986 Navajo Street, Yorktown, NY.

 

[clarionite]

That seems to fit what I was told by a NAWCC member when I went by his shop today at lunch. He wasn't familiar with the company, but identified the clock as a Japanese school clock. He said the makers mark was from Seikosha. Since I didn't pay a lot for that clock, it didn't hurt my feelings much. But to find out the other clock I took to him was a Korean replica from the 1960's stung a little.

I'll try to post pictures of the clock this evening when I get home.

Marty

 

[Grant Perry]

Here is a link to a completed similar e-Bay item.
http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ390006185566QQcategoryZ13854QQcmdZViewItem
Grant

 

[Kevin W.]

Interesting subject.
I have seen these clocks before and thought they were old and genuine. Not the case.More or less a name to sell a clock, complete with a certificate.
I like Japanese or Asian made clocks that have a name on the dial, it makes it easier to identify the clock.
I have a Japanese school house clock with no maker,s name on the dial, it looks American made, but is not.

 

[Charles E. Davis]

Interesting subject.
I have seen these clocks before and thought they were old and genuine. Not the case.More or less a name to sell a clock, complete with a certificate.

I depends. Their reference is "a genuine circa 1900 antique." That is a pretty loose statement. If circa 1900 stretches to 1920 and you accept that an antique doesn't have to be 100 years old, you might be in some kind of a ballpart. Allowing that stretch and accepting the implied origin as US rather than Japan you have gotten what you ordered, not what you expected!

 

[Kevin W.]

I guess my way of what i understood was it was used by the Pony Express.
But it seems it was not.
It is just a name given to this clock.

 

[danielbi]

Simon Wittner and his wife Shirley found a cashe of old regulator clocks in a warehouse in New England. These clocks had never been sold and had been in storage until Simon found them in 1979. They were all made between 1890 and 1910. There was an associated press article about him and his wife in several newspapers in 1979. He marketed them thru his antique company Pony Express Systems of Yorktown NY. I purchased one on July 23 1979 it is number 75656
Today Simon is 71 years old and still lives in the Yorktown area but is no longer in the antique buisness
If anyone is interested I can scan the article from the paper and send it to you
Hope this helps

Dan Bishop
Fort Worth Tx

 

[harold bain]

Hi, Dan, welcome to the message board. Thanks for updating the information on this thread. My clock is dated December 12 1978, with the number 62145. So, were these new, old stock clocks? I would appreciate a scan of this article to keep with my clock. You can email me at: heyjude1313atrogers.com

 

[Charles E. Davis]

Dan, I would also love to see a copy of the news item. Several parts of what you describe would take some explaining.
He found the clocks in 1979. He was advertising the clocks in Americana magazine in 1977.
The clocks were "new-old stock." The ads show a wide variety which also show up in the actual clocks that I have seen. This would not be typical of a new-old stock stash of items.
The Pony Express is a fascinating story of clock merchandising and your item will be an exciting piece to include when the story is finally published.
Please fill us in and make it available!

 

[danielbi]

Do you know if I can send a scanned copy of article to this site
dan

 

[harold bain]

Dan, if you send it to me, I will try to copy it to this thread.

 

[danielbi]

Harold
Just sent you the scan

danb

 

[danielbi]

I think I just figured out how to attach the scanned article on Sy Wittner and Pony Exp Clocks
Dan B

 

[harold bain]

Interesting article, Dan. Much like the documents that came with these clocks, it makes no mention of the Japanese origins of these clocks, and in fact states they were Connecticut made.

 

[Charles E. Davis]

This is worse than I ever could dream it could be. He should have been taken to court. I wonder what he thinks about this article now?

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Very interesting article. Adds a little spice to the soup, that's for sure.

 

[danielbi]

By the way I am not for sure but I think I saw a small article around the same time in Newsweek Mag. on these clocks. I kept the Charlotte Observer article as that was where I lived then. I ordered the clock and the first one arrived and was cracked so I sent it back and Sy replaced it.

Also here is a link to a clock restorer in Mass. I am sure most of you are familiar with him but his this link said he was a restorer for Pony Exp Systems in the 70's. Copy and paste this in your search window and see if it sheds more light on this.

http://65.108.244.12/john/webpage/index.html

Dan b

 

[Nolemags]

Hey there.

I just stumbled upon this and feel like I have solved a mystery of a clock that has been in my family since the 70's. My great uncle left me a Regulator clock, among hundreds of others. I wasn't really a collector, but...well, I am now.

Amazing that someone actually had an article of the Simon Whittner story. My uncle actually go the clock as a parting gift from his term as Commander in the Captree Power Squadron in 1978. He was quite proud of it. So tell me it was authentic. Please.

 

[harold bain]

Hi, Nolemags, welcome to the message board. We seem to have solved the riddle of the pony express clocks. The are real. They are Japanese. They may be around 100 years old. Could you post a picture of yours?

 

[Kevin W.]

Thanks to all for solving this riddle, i have pondered over them as well.

 

[inbeat]

Hi, Nolemags, welcome to the message board. We seem to have solved the riddle of the pony express clocks. The are real. They are Japanese. They may be around 100 years old. Could you post a picture of yours?

As most likely already posted, they may be "real" as in old, but their connection to the Pony Express would be less than "real." They are in fact, just readily found Japanese School clocks that were imported by the thousands in the 70's and 80's and perhaps 60's......much like the ones from India are today.....

 

[PastTime]

I've been trying to find info about a clock I found in a thrift store. I attached pics. There is an engraved mark on the clock works that looks like it says LADE MARK with a horse between the two words. It also had the Pony Express System card signed by Simon Wittner with a clock number and 'Circa 1900 Regulator Written on it. Mine came with a key that was engraved with the name E Ingraham & Co, Bristol, Conn with it. I found an article on the internet about E. Ingraham & Co. If this article is correct, this company existed between 1857-1860, and originally bought movements from a variety of sources. The below link tells the history of this company. My guess is that Elias Ingram bought some of his movements from Japan. According to this article, pendulam clock production ceased after WWII, when he began making electric clocks and watches. Wittner may have bought up his clocks after the business was sold in 1967 to Macgraw Edison. However, I'm not sure why E. Ingraham would not be on the clock itself, unless it was part of the sales agreement so there would be no further liability to Macgraw Edison. The timing make sense. LOL - Pun intended!
http://www.antiqueclockshop.com/appraise/ingraham.htm

 

[Jeremy Woodoff]

Pastime, the E. Ingraham key has nothing to do with your clock. Key sizes were standardized and keys rarely stay with the clock they started with. As the Pony Express card states, you have an antique clock from around 1900. It was made in Japan in the style of an American clock of the period (actually the case is more typical of "Anglo-American" clocks, which were American movements cased in England in English-made cases).

Perhaps someone will recognize the trademark. There were several large Japanese clock companies, including Seikosha, now called Seiko.

 

[harold bain]

Hi, pastime, welcome to the message board. It is very doubtful that Elias Ingraham would have bought movements from Japan in the 1850's. The movement you show has some similarities to early Brewster and Ingraham movements with the ribbed plates, but only similar, not identical. The case style is that of Anglo-American clocks, which are British cased clocks with American movements. I have seen (and have one now) dials like yours, with the large cutout to show the movement, marked International, with Japanese movments.
I have never seen a Japanese case like yours. Is there any evidence that another movement was originally used? Any extra screw holes?

 

[PastTime]

I don't see any extra screw holds looking from the front or drilled in the back. What other evidence can I look for? I'm not sure my movement was Japanese. I was using the information from the thread to assume it may be. Do you know how I can find out the value of this clock as I might be interested in selling it?

 

[harold bain]

Having the words "trade mark" on the movement are characteristic of Japanese movements. You may find similar Japanese clocks on ebay for a general idea of value. A true Anglo-American clock is likely worth at least 3-4 times as much as yours. I think its value probably peaked when Mr. Wittner sold it to the original purchaser.

 

[Charles E. Davis]

It is difficult to see the logo on the movement photos. You describe it as a horse between TRADE and MARK. My guess would be that it also includes a world globe under the front legs of the horse.
That logo is quite common and was one used by the Owari Clock Company of Nagoya, Japan. It was founded 1896 and was a major producer of clocks throughout the hay day of mechanical clocks. It developed into a major supplier of precision parts for the aircraft and automotive industries and is now known as Owari Precision Products, Inc.
The case style is called Library Scroll and was a popular case style for the English market. It was made by many American and Japanese makers.
Your dial is a replacement. I would also expect to see a label behind the pendulum. Often Owari had their name cast in the gong base.
Your clock shows its American heritage but is Japanese and had nothing to do with the Pony Express or was anywhere near one hundred years old when "Simon Wittner" sold it. Another example in salesmanship where the Sizzle has nothing to do with the Steak!

 

[Charles E. Davis]

Here is the ad from July/August 1977 that sold your clock. It was in Americana Magazine.

 

[harold bain]

Charles, he was very careful not to say that it was American.

 

[llncstr]

As an anniversary present my mother-in-law presented my wife and I with one of these Regulator Clocks from Simon Wittner complete with a certificate of age & ownership dated 28th of April 1978. The original price was $160.00 plus $6.00 for insured delivery. It also came with double-sided sheet of instructions. Thanks for the clarification of the origin of these clocks. I hope Sy Wittner is enjoying his retirement. It just shows to go you that there is a sucker born everyday.

 

[Raymond Rice]

I can remember buying these, by the case, in the early '70s. I believe I paid around $500 for a case of 20. Most required little more than cleaning and adjustment. I wholesaled them off to antique dealers--(I did't represent them as being anything other than old clocks). I purchased them from a dealer who advertised them in the NAWCC Mart -- I can't remember the verbiage which he used to advertise them.

I have never heard the story of "Pony Express" or Mr. Wittner -- a fascinating bit of history.

Ray

 

[64mustang]

The Pony Express System seems to be an auction house or marketing channel of some kind out of NY.

Important to note: The business card glued to the clock shows an address with a zip code. Zip codes didn't start until 1963.

The Pony Express operated from April 3, 1860 to October 1861 a whopping 18 months.

Any implications your clock is tied to the actual Pony Express should be considered fraudulent until proven otherwise.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

There are some additional lessons to be learned from all of this. One of them is that "certificates of authenticity" from the seller of an item mean squat. Another is as PT Barnum (yes, he was involved in clock making, too) is supposed to have said, "There's a sucker born every minute".

RM

 

[John Anderson]

I was one of the founders of Pony Express System in Yorktown Heights, NY. We were in business from about 1972 to June 1979. We were a mail order house that specialized in the sale of Antique (Japanese) Schoolhouse clocks by Mail. You can read more about me & Pony Express on my web page at http://sunshinecapecod.com/john/webpage/index.html
If you have any more questions, feel free to email me at villagepeddlar@aol.com . Thanks for the interest, John Anderson!!

 

[ALottScinta]

I recently happened across an ad that I had pulled about these clocks from Yankee Magazine, April, 1979. I thought "too bad I didn't buy one of those clocks, I wonder what it would be worth today?" When I Googled Pony Express Systems in Yorktown, I found this thread. I guess I am glad I folded up the ad and put it away. Attached is a copy of the ad for anyone interested. View attachment PonyExpressAd.pdf

 

[soaringjoy]

Thanks for the last two posts and welcome to the board!
Jurgen

 

[rockies3529]

This information may be a little late, but I just went on line to see if the Pony Express System was still in business, and this web site came up.( Had to join to respond to you) I have a " Circa 1900 Regulator" wall clock, purchased about 20-30 years ago.
My wife was an antique collector, and saw an ad in a magazine for the Regulator wall clock, like the old school clocks.
We purchased the clock, and when we received it, I determined that it was old, but obviously an old Japanese copy of the Regulator clock. The clock has been extensively re-built, with a new clock face. It had some paper
inside with Japanese markings. We received a separate piece of glass, for the case where the pendulum shows, marked "Regulator", to replace the decorative glass already installed in the case.
My case is not Oak, but some type of soft wood, stained a golden oak color.
My card states Clock number 60779, Circa 1900 Regulator, signed by Simon Wittner with the address of Pony Express System, 2986 Navajo Street, Yorktown, NY 10598.
I can only assume that this Simon Wittner found a supply of these old Japanese copies, refurbished them, and sold them to purchasers who assumed they were genuine US made Regulator clocks.
I forgot what I paid for this clock, think it was in the $ 150. range, more or less. It wasn't worth returning, so we kept the clock.
Hope this helps, but you may already have the information. Merlin Perkins, member, Rockies 3529.

 

[harold bain]

Hi, Merlin, welcome to the message board. Thanks for sharing your experience with Pony Express. He must have imported these clocks by the container full back in the 1970's. He was careful not to say they were American in his advertising, just implied they were.