Show Your Special American Collections

Ethan Lipsig

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I view my pocket watch collection as a being made up a large number of "special collections", for example, maker collections, e.g., Illinois, case-maker collections, e.g., Cress Arrow, case shape collections, e.g., oval, escapement type collections, e.g., detent chronometers, and model collections, e.g., Illinis. I am sure that many of you also have special collections that reflect your collecting focus.

I am posting this thread in hopes that many of you will post descriptions and photos of your special collections.

If this thread becomes reasonably popular, I will post a European version of it in the European pocket watch forum.

To kick things off, one of my special collections is Elgin C.H. Hulburds. I have one of the largest collections of these watches. C.H. Hulburd was Elgin's top-of-the-line prestige model. No more than about 810 were made. They all had movements that looked like this, except for minor variations discussed in Elgin Hulburd research

IMG_0212_edited.JPG

Hulburds were cased in a wide variety of case/dial combinations, all solid gold or platinum. I have these 13 examples.

Platinum

DSC00250.JPG
DSC05615.JPG

Z platinum Hulburd.jpg IMG_4780.JPG

18k

DSC00245.JPG
IMG_2408.JPG

Hulb.jpg
IMG_1131_edited.JPG

14k

DSC05976.JPG
IMG_0215_edited.JPG IMG_0205_edited.JPG

IMG_2543.JPG IMG_2542.JPG
IMG_4035.JPG
IMG_5303_edited.JPG IMG_5304_edited.JPG
IMG_4821.JPG IMG_0987_edited.JPG

Please post descriptions and photos of your special collections.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Wow Ethan!

My little collections are not special in the value sense. Many are not in their original cases. They are not the rarest or high grade. They are special to me because my biggest thrill is studying something and finding examples to go along with it.

Here is one such collection, and my favorite research project. In 1873 Elgin delivered their first stemwinders in mid June. Between then and into 1875 they added stemwind attachments to the Raymond, Culver, Taylor, Wheeler, Ogden and Laflin. The first stemwinders are still key-set and these are very low production. After around a year (maybe less) a sliding set lever was added.

Here are the original 6 Named grades with sliding lever, another that is key-set(and a p.l.!) And a p.l. Ogden from the small second run. PicsArt_09-16-08.26.39.jpg

The early stemwind obsession also spilled over into Hampden. The Rail-Way, J.C. Perry, Chester Woolworth and Theo E. Studley are all originally made with male stems, hollow center pinions, and pivoting levers. The 11 jewel Hampden watch co and 11 jewel gilt are less hollow pinion. Everything is 16,200bph except the Railways and state street! Neat!
PicsArt_09-16-08.57.02.jpg PicsArt_09-16-08.21.11.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Well that last picture was supposed to be deleted because I figured two little collections was enough, but i can't edit it out! Lol.
I also look for private labels each company. Always looking to find new companies I haven't explored, or upgrades for existing watches, so here's some of them.

Lot's of little special collections make up the watch pile. So there is a theme! Even though it seems random at times.
 
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luvsthetick

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Rick said it first, "Lot's of little special collections make up the watch pile".

Here is an example of what I mean.

How many dial variations can I find on 12s Elgins in stand-up cases?

DSC_0003a.jpg

or how many different dial signatures can I find on 10s double sunk Frances Rubie dials?

DSC_0002d.JPG

Years ago I became fascinated with Elgin's convertibles. At first I set out to collect one of each grade they made. Since these movements can be cased as open faced or hunter I decided I needed two of each grade they made, a hunter cased one and an open faced one. After reaching this goal I thought I was done until.................I stumbled onto this.

A 14s 7 jewel grade 47. Read about finding it to be a 14 size here Interesting Elgin convertible grade 47 (show and tell)

DSC_0002.JPG DSC_0009a.jpg

Just when I thought my Elgin convertible collection was complete, I now have to see how many 14s convertibles I can find.

Please note these are just some of my Elgins.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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It so happens that I have some watches home from the bank for sorting and this little collection of New York Chronograph Watch Co. pieces was handy. Some need a little tidying up before they go back into "storage". Two 18s complete watches, two 16s mvts (without chronograph parts, one is unused in original tin) and one 16s fancy dial.

img030.jpg
 

Dr. Jon

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I like several Illinois series but as a group my favorites are the thue bridge Sangamo Specials with diamond end stones over the balance. Here is my specialty collection of each jewel count.

07090942.png
This is the 19 Jewel

07090315.png This is the 21. Note this has caps on the escape wheel and lever while the 19 has a jeweled mainspring barrel but not these caps.

Here is the 23 jewel version
DSC00007.png



I developed this interest from reading Mike Chamelin's book on the Sangamo Special. I was surprised at how reasonably these were at auction after the book came out .

These all have the Illinois straight logo on the dial.

Dial.png

For me this as as good as it gets unless it is a 12 size but that is another special collection and another of my heresies
 
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Ethan Lipsig

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How many dial variations can I find on 12s Elgins in stand-up cases?
There are more out there for you to collect. I used to have this one, with a dial that is a hybrid of the second and third examples you posted.

IMG_1069_edited.JPG
 

Ethan Lipsig

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Another special collection I have is of Illinois Model 1 extra-thin 12-size watches, of which there were four grades:
  • 435 -- 17 jewels, 310 made
  • 437 -- 19 jewels, 2060 made
  • 438 -- 21 jewels, 1130 made
  • 439 -- 21 jewels extra, 330 or 370 made, depending on the source
All of these watches seem to have been factory cased, often in Knapp cases. Most or all seem to have been cased in solid gold or platinum cases.

I have one Grade 435 in my collection, with its original 14k unsigned case and dial, and correct hands. It has a 1919 inscription with a typo: Mother forJohn.

IMG_2311.JPG 019_edited.JPG 011_edited.JPG

I have one Grade 437, again in its original 14k case, with the original dial and correct hands.

IMG_2320.JPG IMG_1306.JPG IMG_1309.JPG

I have four Grade 438s

My favorite is this 18k Knapp-cased example.

IMG_3319.JPG IMG_3317.JPG IMG_3312.JPG

This two-tone 14k Grade 438 has an unusual dial.

DSC05489.JPG DSC05376.JPG

I will show the rest of my Model 1 extra thin collection in a subsequent post.
 

Ethan Lipsig

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My third Grade 438 is this 14k Knapp-cased enameled example, with a 1919 inscription.

IMG_1838.JPG IMG_1839.JPG

My last Grade 438 is the 14k-Solidarity cased example.

IMG_2125.JPG IMG_5905_edited.JPG

I have four Grade 439s.

The first is this 14k Knapp enameled case example.

IMG_1847.JPG IMG_0424_edited.JPG IMG_0417_edited.JPG

The second is also in a 14k Knapp enameled case.

IMG_9314_edited.JPG IMG_9313_edited.JPG

My third Grade 439 is the 18k example in an unsigned case, probably by Knapp. The watch is being restored by my watchmaker, who will replace the mismatched hands with an appropriate matching set.

IMG_4745.JPG IMG_4744.JPG

My last Grade 439 is this platinum example in an unsigned case. Sadly, a prior owner refinished the dial and replaced the hands. It came in a box, likely unoriginal, with a 10k chain and 14k knife. It is the only platinum-cased Illinois I have ever seen. If any of you know of another one, please let me know.

IMG_2024.JPG z Ill plat 439.jpg IMG_2027.JPG
 

Jerry Treiman

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My largest special collection would be Waltham watches that were custom cased by H.W. Matalene. This collection includes not only pocket watches but also wristwatches (men’s and women’s) and pendant watches. Since these watches were cased in gold and platinum, and the cases are the critical element of the research, I am in a race with the scrappers. Attached is a sampling. Research continues as I work on my writing.
sample.jpg

My next largest collection (33 watches or movements) is watches made by Waltham for E.Howard & Co. (16-size, 12-size and 6/0). I managed to collect examples of most variants, which are described in the two-part article published in the last two Bulletins of 2018 (vol.60, issues 5 & 6).
2sizes.jpg H829548fb.jpg

I continue to seek examples of all grades/sizes of special private-label movements made by Waltham for the Boston jeweler - Bigelow,Kennard & Co. I have 30 (21 cased) and am only missing a few. The results of my research are also being prepared for publication.
4bk.jpg BKsizes.jpg

Like Ethan, I also collect extra-thin model Illinois watches in their lovely custom cases. My mini-collection (18 watches) includes the 1st model (12-size, 4 grades), 2nd model (12-size, 1 grade), 13-size Illini (2-grades) and also the Hamilton grade 400 that evolved from the Illinois models (2 models and 5 of 6 case styles).
4grades_c.jpg Tycoons.jpg

Other mini-collections include Waltham’s “Riverside” grade ( The Riverside - Waltham's most popular movement grade and Waltham's Riverside grade -- the 12-size variants ) and high-grade Waltham ladies’ watches.
 

LloydB

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[snipped]
...
To kick things off, one of my special collections is Elgin C.H. Hulburds.
I have one of the largest collection of these watches. C.H. Hulburd was
Elgin's top-of-the-line prestige model. No more than about 810 were made.
They all had movements that looked like this, except for minor variations
discussed in Elgin Hulburd research [snipped] Hulburds were cased

View attachment 612258
Your #3 under 18K is a total knockout! :clap: :chuckling:

View attachment 612258

I don't suppose you'd...
.................. No, of course not...
...................................... Never mind. ;)
 
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Dave Coatsworth

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One of my focus areas within the realm of collecting Illinois private labels is on the grade 116. The 16-size model 1, 2, and 3 were Illinois' earliest 16-size movements. The grade 116 was the highest grade among these models. It was also the only adjusted grade. It is not a very common grade, but I have managed to accumulate 11 of them over the past several years.

Illinois1049435Mvmt.jpg Illinois1049500Mvmt.jpg illinois1049520Mvmt.jpg Illinois1049638Mvmt.jpg Illinois1157854Mvmt.jpg Illinois1167615Mvmt.jpg Illinois1167682Mvmt.jpg Illinois1183013Mvmt.jpg Illinois1183040Mvmt.jpg Illinois1183062Mvmt.jpg Illinois1263928Mvmt.jpg
 

bruce linde

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ok, so i'm a clock guy... but i just read this thread and WOW... i am blown away by the lovely watches and collections pictured here. gorgeous stuff.
 

vintageguy

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The posted collections are so cool! I myself have several sub-collections, one of which consists of Illinois Model 1 KW/KS watches in big beefy coin silver (for the most part) cases. I love the old West and these have a real attraction for me.

Stuart Movement.jpg Stuart Dial.jpg Stuart Case.jpg Bunn Movement.jpg Bunn Dial.jpg Bunn Case.jpg Dean Movement.jpg Dean Dial.jpg Dean Case.jpg Miller Adjusted Movement.jpg Miller Adjusted Dial.jpg Miller Adjusted Case.jpg Bates Movement.jpg Bates Dial.jpg Bates Case.jpg Columbia Movement.jpg Columbia Dial.jpg Columbia Case.jpg
 

vintageguy

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vintageguy

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I'm also a big fan of Illinois Getty Models. I think it's because of the half-moon click and the fine, thin demaskeen pattern on many of the grades.

173 Dial.jpg 173 Movement.jpg 175 Dial.jpg 175 Movement.jpg
185 Dial.jpg 185 Movement.jpg 187 Dial.jpg 187 Movement.jpg
A Lincoln Dial.jpg A Lincoln Movement.jpg A Lincoln2 Dial.jpg A Lincoln2 Movement.jpg
Sangamo1 Dial.jpg Sangamo1 Movement.jpg Sangamo2 Dial.jpg Sangamo2 Movement.jpg
Sangamo3 Dial.jpg Sangamo3 Movement.jpg Sangamo4 Dial.jpg Sangamo4 Movement.jpg
 

luvsthetick

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Yet another special American collection, Seth Thomas Eagle series.

DSC_0004at.jpg

Movements had one of three size eagles engraved on the movement.

DSC_0011-001 (2)fa.jpg DSC_0001bwcv.jpg DSC_0010atcnr.jpg

There is a fourth design, a large eagle with the pose of my small eagle. I have not found one yet.

One can be seen on American Timekeeper's site here (https://seththomasresearch.com/models-6-and-7)
Scroll down to the eagle movements.
 

4thdimension

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Did this many years ago .... Waterbury 4 size, both the W & N Series... Duplex escapement ... Appears they had
A multitude of dials and cases ....

View attachment 612468 View attachment 612469 View attachment 612470 View attachment 612471

The hardest one to find, the Aluminum movement ... View attachment 612472 View attachment 612473 View attachment 612474 View attachment 612475
Addisons are what I collected too, about 200 including the larger sizes, but I haven’t found one in years. You have several beauts! -Cort
 

John Pavlik

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Thanks Cort, and thanks for getting the Aluminum example going .... Hope that famous named son is Appreciating his name !
 

Clint Geller

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This is a fabulous thread. I will post pix of my Civil War provenance collection later today. I'm off to get a flu shot.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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The only Waltham that I sought out for a "special collection" was the open-face 1892 model Vanguard. I've sold off some of this collection but still have 5; these being a 1st run 17j (shown below), a 1st run 21j, a 21j in the 7 million range, a 21j WI and a 23 WI. The 17j jewel is the only one for which a picture is handy.

P1050163.JPG
 

Clint Geller

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Well, not quite all of my eleven Civil War provenance watches are fully American, though I believe all the cases to be American, and all their historical interest is American. So here they are, broken up over two emails. Many of these watches have great stories to go with them, which I will be happy to provide upon request. One presentee received the Medal of Honor, another owner is documented to have been killed in action with the watch in his pocket, a third owner was mortally wounded likely with the watch in his pocket, and that just scratches the surface.

View attachment 612781 WJ Palmer Cuvette - 3 best.JPG Capt Peckens Watch Inscribed Cuvette.JPG Capt Peckens Watch Movement.JPG Capt J Eddy 20 S Cuvette - 2.JPG Capt J Eddy 20 S Movt Dir Light.JPG Col GW Gallup Dust Cover Close-Up.JPG Col GW Gallup Watch Movement.JPG Copeland Presentation - Best cropped.jpg Gen JT Copeland Case front.jpg Gen JT Copeland Case Rear lid interior.jpg Gen JT Copeland Movement #107,296.jpg Fuller Watch Cuvette and Presentation.JPG Fuller Watch Movement.JPG Captain WJ Palmer - in uniform.jpg General WJ Palmer - in uniform.jpg Captain Peckens in uniform.jpg Colonel Copeland - 1.jpg Col Copeland of the 5th MI Cav.gif Fuller-John-Wallace[1].jpg
 
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musicguy

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One of the things I collected early on was watches with few copies made ("rare" or "uncommon" in Complete Price Guide parlance). Let's see if I can organize these in fewest to most copies.

U. S. Watch Co. Waltham "The President" 18s 17J HC ~150 - 200 copies:

PresFace.jpg PresidentMovement.jpg

Rockford Model 8 Grade 79 18s 16J ~200 copies:

PB080012.jpg PB290021.jpg

Illinois Model 4 Bunn 18s 15J ~300 copies:

P8160005.jpg P8160002.jpg

Hamilton 932 18S 16J ~400 copies:

Face2.jpg Hamilton932-191.jpg

Columbus "Ruby" 16s 21J ~550 copies:

Columbus Ruby.jpg Columbus Ruby Movement.png

Rockford Model 9 Grade 905 18s 21J ~600 copies:

Rockford.jpg RockfordHausermansRR.JPG View attachment 613146
 
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Ethan Lipsig

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In post 13, Jerry Treiman wrote "Like Ethan, I also collect extra-thin model Illinois watches in their lovely custom cases. My mini-collection (18 watches) includes the 1st model (12-size, 4 grades), 2nd model (12-size, 1 grade), 13-size Illini (2-grades) and also the Hamilton grade 400 that evolved from the Illinois models (2 models and 5 of 6 case styles).
529392-58ee2aa9e8d71b063f49949fa61ca7f6.jpg "

But Jerry did not post any photos of the 12-size or 13-size Illini grades. I collect those grades, as well as the Hamilton 400s Jerry showed in his posting.

In this and my next two posts, I will show my Illini collection.

First up is the original Illini, which was not based on the extra-thin model. Rather, it a 23 jewel grade based on Model 3. It is similar to Grade 410.

1 (1).jpeg

Only 200 were made, all in 1916. I am only aware of 21 still existing examples. If you have one that is not on the list below, please let me know.

Known examples:
  1. 2,933,909
  2. 2,933,918
  3. 2,933,922
  4. 2,933,944
  5. 2,933,946
  6. 2,933,951
  7. 2,933,952
  8. 2,933,958
  9. 2,933,964
  10. 2,933,971
  11. 2,933,972
  12. 2,933,978
  13. 2,933,992
  14. 2,933,997
  15. 2,935,011
  16. 2,935,041
  17. 2,935,044
  18. 2,935,073
  19. 2,935,076
  20. 2,935,080
  21. 2,935,097
Because 23 jewel Illinis are scarce, I had to collect what I could find, which were not pristine examples.

I acquired my first example, #2,933,918, as an uncased movement with a poor dial. I re-cased it in a 14k Knapp case that had housed an Illinois Autocrat. I replaced the dial with a refinished dial I took from an A. Lincoln movement.

1 (1).jpg 1 (2).JPG 1 (3).JPG

When I acquired my second example, #2,935,041, it was in a ygf case and hand damaged hands. I put it in a 14k Wadsworth case taken from an Illinois Grade 406 and I replaced the hands with ones from an A. Lincoln.

2 (1).jpg 2 (3).jpg 2 (2).JPG
 

Ethan Lipsig

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There were two 13-size Illini grades, Grade 538 and the "extra" Grade 539. I understand the difference are (a) different Geneva striping, (b) different escape wheel cap jewel settings, (c) different pallet bridges, and (d) recessed hub escape wheels on some 539s.


3 (3).JPG 7 (2).JPG
Grade 538 Grade 539

Here are my Grade 538s.

14k Carved Empire Case
3 (1).JPG 3 (2).JPG

18k Carved Empire Case
6 (1).JPG 6 (2).JPG

18k Carved Empire Case
5 (1).JPG 5 (2).JPG

14k Plain Empire Case
4 (1).jpg 4 (2).JPG 4 (3).JPG 4 (4).JPG 4 (5).JPG

Here are my Grade 539s.

14k Plain Empire Case
7 (1).JPG 7 (3).JPG

18k Solidarity Carved Empire Case
8 (1).JPG 8 (2).JPG 9 (1).JPG
 

Ethan Lipsig

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The last Illini grade was the 12-size Grade 528, which served as a basis for the Hamilton 400. Grade 528s are scarce. Only 400-600 were made. The 528 movement looked like this:

9 (4).JPG

I have two Grade 528s in my collection both in 14k Keystone Dictator cases.

9 (1).JPG 9 (2).JPG 9 (3).JPG


10 (1).JPG 10 (2).JPG
 

Ethan Lipsig

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My special collections include watches in oddly-shaped cases. Well over 90% of pocket watches were cased in round cases or many-sided pentagonal cases, such as pentagons, hexagons, and octagons. Very few were cased in oval, square, rectangular, tonneau, cushion, or other oddly-shaped cases. American-made watches were especially unlikely to be cased in oddly-shaped cases. I only have two in my collection. Both are Walthams in solid gold cases made by Henry Matalene, shown below.

1.jpg 2.jpg
 

luvsthetick

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A pair of Columbus made private label watches. As often the case with me, one watch often leads to a hunt for another. Usually, the more plentiful, or easier to find is what I acquire 1st. Such was true in my search for a hunter cased example of this watch.

Originally attracted by the private label dial I could not pass up this nice example.

DSC_0001st.jpg DSC_0012st.jpg

A little research produced a picture to go with the name on the dial and a text description of the end of this watch club.

menofohioinninet00clev_0179[1]at.jpg books[1]a.png

My quest for a hunter movement wound up taking years. Finally this poor example appeared and it became mine. Accompanying this movement was the correct dial someone had the foresight to store in a dial container packed with foam and all numbered parts remained with the movement.

DSC_0023a.jpg

After collecting the parts necessary for a restoration, here is the watch today.

DSC_0013ac.jpg DSC_0011ac.jpg

Another completed set.

DSC_0025a.jpg
 

Dr. Jon

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I have an atraction to Hamilton bridge models. One of my favorites groups is the 0 size. Here is a 982/983

530469-4ae2db942a6069469d039818edb34e29.png

530470-820beb5b9dd340dc5919dbf73500fdd4.png

The 9783 is marked "Lady Hamilton" and I doubt they were referring to Lord Nelson's Lady. Many of these were cased as wrist watches and went out as trench watches in World War I. NOte teh resembalnce of this movement to Swiss C. H. Meylan watches.

And the 19 Jewel 985

530471-143ac94643cce239a43face312bf2bc9.jpg

530472-d6636592e2d02bd21433b39b2a50a5f9.png

dial.png mvt.png Dial_web.jpg Movemetn_90_small.png
 

Rick Hufnagel

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I also have a Woolworth problem....

Here are 9 variations of NY/Hampdens 15 jewel Gilt workhorse. You'll notice the variations in long/short balance cock, adjusted and not, deep and shallow engraved balance cocks, fancy and plain Springfield markings, private label and not, and there's one Hampden Watch co marked.

There are still many more variations out there. 5 of these come from the "Hampden/NY grey area" pile.

PicsArt_09-16-12.14.57.jpg

This is a great thread, good fun!
 

Jerry Treiman

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Another mini-collecton of mine is the top three 12-size Elgins as listed in the 1903 Otto Young catalog (posted on Wayne Schlitt’s Elgin web site)
1903.jpg

Here are my 23-jewel grades 190 and 194 (production of 4,000 and 3,000 respectively).
190 copy.jpg 194 copy.jpg

Here are the 21-jewel grades 236 & 237 (production of 2,000 each). For some reason I never took a front photo of the open-face gr.237.
gr236d copy.jpg 236-237 copy.jpg

And here are my 19-jewel grades 189 & 193 (production of 10,000 each).
189 copy.jpg 193 copy.jpg

All except the grade 193 are in original cases.
 

musicguy

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Another mini-collection of mine is the top three 12-size Elgin's as listed in the 1903 Otto Young catalog
Thanks for showing these. I was just looking at this catalogue last night.
It was some of these jobber's catalogs that really got me focused on certain watches.


Rob
 

Paul Sullivan

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I have to admit I have quite a few sub-collections in my entire pocket watch collection and almost all are within the Hamilton, Elgin, and Waltham brands as they make up nearly 90% of of all my American pocket watches with a number of Illinois, and the few odd Hampden, Rockford, Howard, and Columbus examples making up the rest.

I look for 18s watches made between 1892 to 1920 and 16s from 1890 to 1960's which matches the period of Hamilton's operations as Hamiltons make up the largest part of my collection and I generally buy Elgin, Waltham, Illinois, and others from the same period also.

One watch I became interested in was Waltham's famous 18s model 1892 which offers some 18 grades with 57 different variations among them, ranging from 15 to 23 jewels and from the common to vary scarce with plenty of variety in between.

Here are some that I've collected;

1892 ATCo. 17j with original movement and case papers still inside the case.
1892 ATCo. 17j w original case and mvmnt papers e.JPG

1892 HC Royal to Crescent St. factory conversion of the movement by milling out "Royal" and engraving "Crescent St." in it's place .
Royal-Cres. St. conversion 781049 SN Pos 3-side.jpg

1892 P.S. Bartlett 1892 Royal Two tone
1892 P.S. Bartlett  16161222 .JPG 1892 Royal Tu-tone 7672426.jpg

1892 ATCo. Premier 1892 Riverside
1892 ATCo. Premier 10539948.jpg 1892 Riv. 18s 7026717 Mvmnt (1)-side.JPG

1892 Vanguard (early) 1892 Canadian Railroad Time Service (also in the last run of the model 1892).
1892 vanguard  6027994 mvmnt.-side.JPG CRTS 92 22017547 SN movement-side.JPG

Another 1892 Crescent St. factory conversion.
Cres. St 7752952  mvmnt-side.JPG

...and these are just a few of the many variants in the 1892s. I also think it's about the best looking
18s movement, with the sunken balance wheel and raised barrel bridge gave the movement a cool 3 tiered appearance and Tu-tone versions enhance the look.

And here's a very small collection of just 4 Hamilton 18s 924s and represent the changes in their markings from the first to the last run. The example on the upper left is from the first run of the
924 but note it still has the damaskeening of the 930, which it replaced, and below it the familiar damaskeen pattern appears well into the 924's second run. On the top right the grade number appears on the right of the barrel bridge, and below, in the very last runs, "Made in U.S.A." stamped around the left barrel bridge. Also the first and the last movements are from the first and last runs of the 924. Along with first runs I also keep a look out for last run watches depending on grade.

01 924 PLC. Luther, Scranton PA-tile.JPG

Hamilton watches, particularly in their early production years, sold much of their production directly
to private jewelers and dealers and the company catered to their business with private label dials at a very low cost and unique damaskeen patterns were some times ordered, making then very collectible also.

There's always some excuse you can use to buy another watch!

Paul
 
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