Show us your Half hour markers on brass dials

[novicetimekeeper]

Let's compile a resource of half hour markers.

It would be helpful if you could give the maker, date, and country of origin.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

OK I can start with these that are currently set up in the house




1 Thos Barrett 1700
2. Thos Eayre 1740
3. Thos Baker 1700
4 Richard Fennel 1700
5 Peter Bower 1740
6. George Avenall 1730
7.John Knibb 1690
8. Henry Ward 1810
9. Thos Speakman 1690
10. John Mercer 1730
11. Thomas Hall 1730
12. John Voyce 1730

Dates are the start of the decade clocks likely made. All English.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Few more from the study



1. Charles Gretton 1690
2. Thomas Clarke 1730
3. Samuel Whitmore 1760
4. Anon 1730

 

[Chris Radano]

1. Thomas Ranger 1750
2. Anon Swiss 1740
3. Anon France 1790
4. Anon English hooded clock 1770
5. Anon German 1830
6. Anon Vienna(?) 1790



oops, these are not all brass dials. have iron and pewter in there.

 

[Chris Radano]

7. Prague 1700
8. Anon Possibly Vienna 1780

 

[jmclaugh]

Just goes to show how skilled and innovative engravers were. I have seen the reverse side of a chapter ring that had been reused, it was older than the new version as that had no half hour markers, they'd disappeared by then, relics of single handed clocks.

I remember reading somewhere that floating half hour markers are said to be later than fixed but I'm entirely convinced that's the case.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Yes floating came later, but it's a timeline for a maker, engraver, region. Not all were at the same place at the same time.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

This is one of my oldest clocks. No signature so don't really know how old but it is the oldest style of chapter ring for a two handed clock that I have.

The half hour markers are an early form but not as early as the trident type.

 

[daveR]

Well Nick, to get it going you have certainly blitzed the field !!, But to keep the list going g, here are two of mine. First, an English lantern clock which looks the part but for going through the usual 19th century rigours of a twin fusee movement, the other a GustaveBecker German vienna regulator.
David

 

[novicetimekeeper]

We welcome the converted lanterns, the alternative was scrapping them and then we would have lost them forever and details of their makers with them.

Very nice trident markers.

 

[Grant Perry]

Well, I only have one brass dial and was anxious to contribute, but to my dismay...not half hour markers. No names on this clock either, but it is rather unique with a dragon/serpent themed case...
Grant

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I have a couple of longcase without, and I only have two brackets, one with diamond lozenges and one without. Half hour markers never seem to have been a thing on dial clocks as they arrived too late.

 

[daveR]

Yes, ignore the Becker, you did say just brass dials, I wasn't reading it properly!

 

[Chris Radano]

I'm breaking the rules for an 18th century wood dial, Malta (1760?)

 

[Chris Radano]

Lorenz Furtwangler Sohne, 1890 brass dial

 

[DeanT]

1. Markwick jnr 1717
2. Markwick jnr 1700
3. James Mitchel 1695
4. Charles Murray 1720
5. Brouncker Watts 1717
6. Thomas Wright 1725

 

[DeanT]

1. Burputt (?) 1680
2. George Clarke 1720
3. Thomas Lumpkin 1720
4. Unsigned 1680
5. Unsigned 1710?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Lanterns are a great source of trident half markers. Sadly my only lantern, though rare in its own right, is too late for half hours. We need some dates dean

 

[DeanT]

The half hour markers have been used since the 16thC although usually plainer than the later English versions. Often a small T or star.

German, unsigned 1590
John Wise, English, 1660
Andreas Raeb, Hamburg, 1630
German, unsigned, 1620
German, unsigned, 1570

 

[DeanT]

.

Early French Pendule religieuse also had half hour markers. They also have the individual minutes numbered.
1. Chauvin 1660's
2. Pierre DeChesne 1680
3. Claude Raillard 1670's
4. Unsigned 1660's

 

[Chris Radano]

Lanterns are a great source of trident half markers. Sadly my only lantern, though rare in its own right, is too late for half hours.

My Miniature lantern, William Kipling 1730, no half hour markers.

 

[DeanT]

English longcases
1. Burrows 1710
2. Unsigned 1700
3. Foster 1695
4. Gavelle 1695
5. Gavelle 1700
6. Goddard 1710
7. Gretton 1710
8. Speakman 1705
9. Warner, Draycott, 1725

 

[Room 335]

1. D Seddon Frodsham 1760
2. Samuel Clay Gainsborough 1730?
3. John Lees Middleton 1780
4. Anon 1900
5. John Duffett Bristol 1760
6. Robt Markham London 1730
7. Thos Carter Bishop Auckland 1740
8. Windmills & Bennet London 1720
All English clocks

 

[Room 335]

A couple more...
1. Richd Houton Oversly Green 1730
2. Henry Buxton Penn/ Wolverhampton 1730
Again English longcase

 

[novicetimekeeper]

A couple more...
1. Richd Houton Oversly Green 1730
2. Henry Buxton Penn/ Wolverhampton 1730
Again English longcase

View attachment 619983 View attachment 619984

I like that last one, does that go all the way round the chapter ring?

 

[jmclaugh]

I like the last one too, quite unusual. I assume the date is wrong for # 4 Anon 1900?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I like the last one too, quite unusual. I assume the date is wrong for # 4 Anon 1900?

I think that is quite a modern one, perhaps three train?

 

[jmclaugh]

. View attachment 619947 View attachment 619948 View attachment 619949 View attachment 619950

Early French Pendule religieuse also had half hour markers. They also have the individual minutes numbered.
1. Chauvin 1660's
2. Pierre DeChesne 1680
3. Claude Raillard 1670's
4. Unsigned 1660's

Very nice, you also find individual minute numbering on early English longcase and bracket clocks.

 

[jmclaugh]

Yes floating came later, but it's a timeline for a maker, engraver, region. Not all were at the same place at the same time.

The reason I'm not convinced is floating ones are found on 17th C lantern clocks along of course with fixed ones.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I think the reason rooted half hours are more important for earlier clocks is that they had a purpose on single handers that became redundant on two handers. The line bisecting the hour was a useful guide for the eye.

 

[Enavance]

Mart. Elwood, circa 1700
Chr. Gould, circa 1710

 

[DeanT]

Very nice, you also find individual minute numbering on early English longcase and bracket clocks.

Yes the very earliest English pendulum clock have that. I have seen it on a very few rare German clocks from 16thC and early 17thC.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Here is another along those lines but this is Dutch I guess around 1700

 

[P.Hageman]

Here are a few of mine.

Anthonie Hebert, Archer Stow (2x). Francis Stamper, George Booth, Dilkes Sibford, Handscomb Ampthill, John Washbourn, John Wilks, Joseph Cooper

 

[P.Hageman]

James Goodyer, John Burges, John Sanderson, John Shepley, Muzzel Bolney, Richard Gilkes, Richard Savage, Richard Sill, Samuel Greenhill, William Atkinson

 

[P.Hageman]

William Ball, William Green

 

[jmclaugh]

Mart. Elwood, circa 1700
Chr. Gould, circa 1710

View attachment 620052 View attachment 620053

The single train Gould one is unusual as is the position of the calendar.

Lots of lovely clocks on this thread.

 

[Enavance]

It is illustrated in "Georgian Bracket Clock" by Richard Barder (Plate I/8).

 

[FDelGreco]

I'm thinking that since the dial maker was very often different from the clockmaker, the clockmakers' names are not relevant. What might be relevant are the date of the clock and where it was made. (Similar dates and locales may have similar half-hour markers because they were made by the same dial maker.) Just an opinion.

Frank

 

[DeanT]

I'm thinking that since the dial maker was very often different from the clockmaker, the clockmakers' names are not relevant. What might be relevant are the date of the clock and where it was made. (Similar dates and locales may have similar half-hour markers because they were made by the same dial maker.) Just an opinion.

Frank

It appears many of the London makers used similar patterns and quite possibly a small numbers of engravers leading to fairly homogenous designs.

The provincial ones can be quite different. Maybe the clockmaker themselves did some of the engraving or there was a local engraver who did his own thing?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Certainly some provincial makers were known to do their own engraving. Loomes suggests that the trident marker and the lozenge were part of that. Some provincial makers supplied dials to other makers

We know that Peter Bower of Redlynch advertised by hanging dials in the tree outside his cottage. This would be a big expense if he had to buy them in, given that clocks were only made to order.

His early work has quite simple engraving which supports this idea.

 

[oldcat61]

About when did half hour markers stop? Would the time frame be different in Scotland? Just curious, both my brass dials are apparently too late ( 1775-80)

 

[novicetimekeeper]

It was later in the North, and I expect also in Scotland. They seem to have been kept as decorative for longer in the North. I don't have any quotes from books but I would say gone by mid century in London and spreading out in fashion from there. My later Wimborne clock is without them, that's perhaps 1760. They don't appear on any dial clocks I'm aware of and they start around 1770.

 

[abe]

Here are two shots of my Thomas Lister of Halifax tall case clock. Lister, Jr. worked alone in Halifax until 1795. He then partnered with Bromley. So this clock was made in or before 1795.

 

[zedric]

Here are my Benjamin Rogers (1730) "flowerpot" design markers, for this thread

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Here are two shots of my Thomas Lister of Halifax tall case clock. Lister, Jr. worked alone in Halifax until 1795. He then partnered with Bromley. So this clock was made in or before 1795.

View attachment 620330

View attachment 620331

Have you had this chapter ring off yet? I'm still not convinced it is original to the clock, removing it would probably confirm that one way or another

 

[jmclaugh]

My understanding is by around 1760 on two handed longcase clocks half hour markers had largely gone along with quarter hour ones. As ever there are always exceptions and one is shown in Barber's book on provincial longcases dated to c. 1770 which retains half hour markers but not quarter hour ones. The chapter ring of the Thomas Lister II clock above also unexpectedly has the earlier feature of smaller minute numbering outside the minute band.

Here's my single hander by Thomas Powell, Ravensthorpe, Northamptonshire c. 1750

 

[abe]

Have you had this chapter ring off yet? I'm still not convinced it is original to the clock, removing it would probably confirm that one way or another

I know we have had this discussion before about the date or authenticity of my Lister clock. Some said, if I recall correctly, that the Hepplewhite case came later. I'll have to search for that thread.

What would taking off the chapter ring show me? How difficult is that?

Is it possible that it is a Lister dial on a later clock? or a Lister clock in a later case?

 

[jmclaugh]

IWhat would taking off the chapter ring show me? How difficult is that?

I think the suggestion is it might reveal evidence it has been dancing with more than one dial. Removing a chapter ring isn't straightforward if the dial is attached to the movement and best to be familar with what you are doing especially on such a lovely dial.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

If you don't want to take the dial off you can take the hood off and have a very good look, take the movement and dial out so you can see better, look for any unused holes or unused fixings. If it has a different chapter ring then there will be evidence of this.

If the movement has been on a different dial, again unused holes. or changed fixings.

You should be able to take photographs too but you will be able to see what I'm talking about for yourself.