Show off all sizes of your BW Raymonds

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by musicguy, Mar 7, 2019.

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  1. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I found this movement on ebay and married it in a mint case that I
    found in a junk store(antique store). (The case is probably 10 years newer I think)
    My son just stole(not really) my montgomery dial Elgin BWR 472 in the same case(which is it's proper case)



    It's a 1913 Grade 372 19j BWR(the movement has been serviced since I took the photo )

    IMG_9543.jpg IMG_4552 (2).jpg

    elgin case1.jpg


    Rob
     
  2. 179

    179 Registered User
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    musicguy, it appears to have a gold hairspring, can you confirm? I like the jeweled barrel variant of the 3 Elgin made the best. You are very close on the 10 years.
     
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  3. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Yes it does have a gold plated hairspring. I was going to mention it
    but forgot thanks for pointing it out. I also like the jeweled barrel variant
    very much.


    Rob
     
  4. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    #54 musicguy, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    Here are two grade 77 BWR:

    1891 18 size grade 77 BWR


    1.jpeg 2.jpeg

    PL(private label) 1889 18 size grade 77

    PL 1888 B W Raymond 5.jpg PL 1888 B W Raymond 2.jpg


    Rob
     
  5. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Nice private label!
     
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  6. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Here's the newest addition to my bw raymond family. It's a grade 70, early stemwinder. Key wind, stem wind, slide lever set. It dates to 1874.

    The one falls into the same run as my other, and after a cleaning and some balance hole jewels, it's running great.

    a proper dial was donated from a third parts movement of this run. This had a flat dial on it when I received it. No doubt picked off for a gr 69 or something of the sort. They didn't even bother to put the dial pins back in.

    Anyways I just finished it today, and I'm proud to have it in the early Elgin stemwind collection.

    Have a great day!

    IMG_20190314_235900445.jpg IMG_20190314_235734702.jpg
     
  7. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Remember my earlier post about the original keywind BWR and the Grade 69? Well, according to the early materials catalog serial number list, yours is a stemwind BWR, not a Grade 70. The Grade 70 differs from the BWR in the same ways the Grade 69 and keywind BWR differ.

    Funny thing is, Elgin made the keywind BWR, the Grade 69, the stemwind BWR and the Grade 70 all at the same time. That is, they were still making the keywind BWRs after the introduced the Grade 69 and the stemwind BWR, and maybe even the Model 70. They didn't just stop making one and stars making the new one.
     
  8. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    That makes sense, since the grading system they adopted kinda lumped a ton of things together. All the serial lists call it a grade 70, so that's what I've been calling it. Your right though, it the same similarities and differences as your keywind example. I know there are differences between the earlier and later ones, but I never thought about them really being two different watches. At the time they only had the names and no grade #, so when my above one was produced, it would only make sense to call it stemwind bwr. Interesting! I think stemwind bwr sounds better anyways!

    Here's the later grade 70 for comparison. Do take note though, this 70 is later and had an overcoil hairspring. I'm still slowly working on when that was added to these, but the early stemwinder is flat. The rounded barrel bridge, the serial # placement, safety/patent pinion. Just to name a few

    IMG_20190201_203406052.jpg
     
  9. Rick Hufnagel

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  10. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Note that Casillas Grade 70 has a flat hairspring, and still has a keyguard and can be keywound. Later Grade 70s dropped that, and went to overcoil hairsprings.

    Also, as best I can tell from what I've seen all GENUINE BWR grade keywind and stemwind movements have straight-cut barrel bridges and serials on the upper plate, whereas the Grade 69 and grade 70 all have the wavy barrel bridge with serial stamped on it.
     
  11. Rick Hufnagel

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    I would love to get a look at one in this range.

    246501-246600

    They are the first stem wind bwrs.


    Who knows if any of these 100 even exist anymore..... The first Taylor's and Culver's are stemwind but still keyset, maybe these first bwrs are the same.
     
  12. diveboy

    diveboy Registered User
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    Before it was released as the B. W. Raymond, it was just known as the "Raymond" and work was started on the model in November 1866. it was modified during the first run from a backset model to front set as well which explains why the first run is different from the the other runs.
     
  13. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    I just picked up what may be one of the very last BW Raymond pocket watches ever made. If Wayne Schlitt, and Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer are right about the last block of 571 serial numbers extending to I-388000, this one, I-387972, was among the last 30.

    IMG_1343.jpg IMG_1356.jpg

    Does anyone have, or know of, any 571 with a higher serial number?
     
  14. Stephen Matusek

    Stephen Matusek Registered User
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    Here's my B.W. Raymond 494, 23J. it was running perfect but now runs fast & adjustment doesn't change it at all. I need to send it to someone to fix.

    Steve

    fullsizeoutput_91e.jpeg fullsizeoutput_91f.jpeg
     
  15. Rick Hufnagel

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    I know I've had them get magnetized, and that causes what you describe. Or it could just need a good cleaning and oil. I grabbed a cheapy demagnetizer from the auction site and it works great for watches and tools.

    Awesome watch!
     
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  16. Stephen Matusek

    Stephen Matusek Registered User
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    #66 Stephen Matusek, Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
    I have an old pocket watch demagnetizer. I'll try that. Thanks. I use it for demagnetizing tools also. BTW, mine is from 1934. I have around a 20 page testimony in 1944 from the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers & a man who was part of it was using a pocket watch using the winding feature.

    Steve
     
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  17. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Here is another 12 size 19j Elgin BWR from 1913. I don't know why but
    I have 3 of these 193's(I guess I like them) but only two are BWR the other is a private label.

    Adjusted to 5 positions

    1.jpeg 2.jpeg



    Rob
     
  18. Stephen Matusek

    Stephen Matusek Registered User
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    #68 Stephen Matusek, Mar 21, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
    Here are some more of mine. BTW my 494 in post 64 is now running perfect after demagnetizing & didn't lose a second until it was almost completely unwound. The serial #34900181 is for that 16s 494 23j. I have a couple others that don't seem to respond to fast & slow adjustment even after demagnetizing. Perhaps I'll try demagnetizing again. If that doesn't fix the problem, they will need servicing.
    Now for my other BWR's. First off is my keywind, serial #42681 is an 18s grade 69, 15j & runs but slow. You can see it is set all the way in fast position but still slow. No telling when it was last serviced. Of course it needs servicing & also a new spring in the lid. Next up is my 18s, grade 70, 15j, serial #2123226. It's a runner but has a chip in the dial at the 12 o'clock position so I need to replace it. The next 2 are the same grade, different years. They are both 16s, 21j grade 478. The first one serial #25837451 from 1923 & is quite ornate which I like very much but it needs a balance staff and/or jewels. The balance swings good so hopefully it just needs jewels but should it need a staff, no problem. Last is my serial #33934091 from 1934 & runs pretty good.
    Lots of very nice B.W. Raymond's here.

    Steve

    fullsizeoutput_927.jpeg fullsizeoutput_924.jpeg IMG_2990.JPG IMG_2991.JPG fullsizeoutput_92f.jpeg fullsizeoutput_92d.jpeg fullsizeoutput_92c.jpeg fullsizeoutput_930.jpeg
     
  19. Brad Maisto

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    6016174A-3B09-4487-8B90-EF47726B273D.jpeg 37122D0C-C621-4743-AC23-9ABF1094AE52.jpeg

    These are not that easy to photograph, but I thought I would share my 16S, grade 372 BWR, serial number 15,503,074 that I put into a Wadsworth 20 year YGF case worthy of this movement!
    Brad Maisto, KY Floral #44 Secretary
     
  20. Mike M.

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    Lee already posted a very nice 22j, gIlt damaskeened WWII A-13, but I thought I would add the British version with an Elgin marked dial and case.

    80ECC32D-E324-4FA2-8CD0-B8A1533C613E.jpeg View attachment 524724 14C2FC95-1EF0-48EA-B19F-EBB4DE59F7D1.jpeg 0B5617CC-423A-43C9-9DFF-C5E02AFCF156.jpeg 90F35F9E-F408-4ADB-9780-828BB799E573.jpeg
     
  21. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    I don't think that one of these has been posted in this thread yet (and I'm too lazy to go back and check, so I apologize if I've missed it).

    Anyway, here's a grade No.472 with its Invar Balance. You can tell, even if the dial has been swapped with an incorrect replacement, by the extra length of the balance rim beyond the arm, prior to the cut. A conventional bimetallic compensated balance only has short stubs of rim beyond the arm. The Invar balance's rim stubs are long enough to have a balance screw.

    And, of course, its in its proper "Elgin R.R." case.

    KLS_16S_21J_BWR_472_29481328.jpg 1924_Aug_NewBWR.jpg
     
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  22. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    RE 472,
    I did buy a beautiful Elgin 472 with mint montgomery dial(with the invar marking in seconds area) in the correct
    Elgin case..............but my son decided it was his.
    s-l1600c (1) - Copy.jpg


    Rob
     
  23. 179

    179 Registered User
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    I get the impression from the ad other watches were fitted with the Invar Balance.
     
  24. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    I think that there were other Elgin watches fitted with Invar Balances (perhaps an Elgin expert will comment on this), just not other railroad watches.
     
  25. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Here's another BWR:

    KLS_16S_23J_BWR_494_WI_33595795.jpg
     
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  26. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Just so you don't think that I'm fixated on 16-size watches, here's an example of the most common grade of the 18-size, 3/4-plate Veritas model movements. No kidding after introducing the 8th model (in 1901) as the "1901 Model", Elgin switched to referring to it as the "Veritas model" - regardless of the grade (see 1909 ad, below).

    With a total production of 68,000, the quantity of BWR grade No. 240 movements built was greater than all other 8th model railroad grade movements built by Elgin, combined (61,900). And there were only a little over 16,000 non-railroad grade 8th model movements made.

    KLS_18S_19J_BWR_240_13670266.jpg 1901_Mar-6_Veritas_Introduction.jpg 1909_Oct_The_New_Elgin.jpg
     
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  27. Rhett Lucke

    Rhett Lucke Board Secretary
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    Duplicated from the thread on coin silver cases, here's one of my B.W. Raymonds

    IMG_5648.jpg
     
  28. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Only 4,400 of the 18-size, 21-jewel BWR grade No. 390 movements were built, not even one tenth of the 68,000 19-jewel BWR grade No.240 movements that were cranked out by Elgin. Nevertheless, it is more than enough for the watch to be considered common.

    KLS_18S_21J_BWR_390_15939171.jpg
     
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  29. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    The 540 had an Invar balance and Elginium Y hairspring. The balance is cut, but not at the arm. More like 2/3 of the way around. The hairspring is white, like the late 478s, but the have a conventional balance cut next to the arm.
     
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  30. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Thanks!
     
  31. okiejohn

    okiejohn Registered User

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    Here's my latest BWR acquisition, a running, Grade 70 in a swing-out, nickel Crescent case. SN 4553117, an 18s, 17j watch.

    3c6df2816c4d693c71d1c2c3c3a53c62.jpg 1ce5e6533caca7a89ce08099786ae72f (1).jpg 4a58eeb85bfcfb2905a4ad718831e958.jpg
     
  32. okiejohn

    okiejohn Registered User

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    And my other recent BWR acquisition, a running, Grade 391 16s, 21j with Montgomery/Canadian (?) style dial, in a base metal Keystone case, SN 16374797.

    be86881283d4a491751dcfad63575329.jpg 820ad642226eed1d28508a801cd56bbe.jpg 5b79d6c9c4e91d0ef9abed456a6a6078.jpg
     
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  33. okiejohn

    okiejohn Registered User

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    I don't think I've listed my BWR Grade 478 yet...SN 41929664. A 16s, 21j watch in an Illinois Watch Case Co. GF case.

    2d37a539aaff8e7cf0510e6b953691d2.jpg 9e7ccaac7d104566ca795399522fdf23.jpg a2fc7ce6455cc330bb5c2de1c4811973.jpg
     
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  34. rrwatch

    rrwatch Registered User
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    Here is an 18 size Elgin B. W. Raymond 21 jewel Grade 390 with the winding indicator complication.

    EBU 18144 Elgin B W Raymond WI 390 21J OF Case Back.jpg EBU 18144 Elgin B W Raymond WI 390 21J OF Dial.jpg EBU 18144 Elgin B W Raymond WI 390 21J OF Mvt.jpg
     
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  35. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    #85 musicguy, Dec 31, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
    Here are two circa 1871(ish) 18 size National Watch Co BW Raymonds that I have posted already(a few times)
    but not in this BW Raymond thread

    0000.01.jpg
    bwr1871.jpeg 599515074.jpg


    EDIT: I switched out the first movement photo for a newer clearer one.



    Rob
     
  36. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Thanks for bringing this one back up!

    Here's a few to add just because

    This is the one im keeping for the series 2 collection. Slide lever, beautiful Gilt, perfect dial and hands. Terrible picture.
    4e6f9c8647db088976dcd41fa29d2e8b.jpg f65d2dbf5919518a166ab51109af39c2.jpg

    Here is the series 2 Bwr for carrying around.
    4558ddfb198fa80f1ec839b0da1f2ca0.jpg
    Lastly... Who can resist the great Damaskeen of the grade 27!
    ab589261de0c45ed6b7e743391e686c3.jpg
     
  37. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I know I can't.....I got me one of them. Nice watches Rick.


    Rob
     
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  38. miguel angel cladera

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    Here is mine, really love this watch.

    20190916_183005.jpg 20190917_185253.jpg
     
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  39. miguel angel cladera

    miguel angel cladera Registered User
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  40. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I was looking at the 1875 Elgin Almanac(posted on the NAWCC Message Board by John F. January 2008)
    and it talks about "the two grades of the B. W. Raymond movement" I noticed that I have both of these
    grades and my serial numbers are fairly close to the ones in the 1875 Elgin Almanac. So I had a little time tonight
    and I put them together in one image. The B. W. Raymond on the right has the C. S. Moseley & G. Hunter Watch Regulator
    Patented Nov. 17, 1874 (No. 157,021) The one on the left has a plain regulator(I believe a Bosley Variant).
    Both match up with the 1875 Almanac image above it. The one with the Moseley Regulator has a single
    sunk dial and the one without has a double sunk dial. I'm not sure that we classify
    these as different grades now, but obviously Elgin did in 1875. There are some differences
    between the movements(jewel settings, and micro regulator, font, and dials).
    Both are National Watch Co. Dials.
    I also used an old photo I did replace the case screw with a blue domed one.
    I also believe the higher serial number was finished before the lower one(but that is just a guess).

    (Click on to enlarge)
    1875 Elgin Almanac with photos of watchs.png



    The text in the 1875 Elgin Almanac says:
    Of the movements represented we
    desire to call especial attention to the
    two grades of the "B. W. Raymond"
    Movement, also to the "H.Z. Culver"
    and "H.H. Taylor adjusted. Particular
    attention is given in the manufacture
    of these movements to their adjustment
    and regulation and it is believed that they are,
    without exception, the best full plate
    watches made in this country.
    They have been subjected to every known test
    in their use upon land and water, upon
    the rail and in the shops, and as a result
    they rank to-day, with dealers who have
    sold them, and the purchasers
    who are wearing them, as among the finest
    time -keepers in the market.
    (obviously written by Elgin themselves;))

    Rob
     
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  41. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    This is a great range for B.W. Raymond study. In this run and a few previous, there are adjusted marked and not, single and double sunk dials, PRR dials, patent and plain regulators... Very interesting. I've liked your dial theory since you first mentioned it! Would be fun to research that.
     
  42. Mark UK

    Mark UK Registered User

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    My first BWR, 'twas an orphan but now housed in a worn but cosy fit Illinois Coin case. The info I have to hand says it's a grade 183 from 1904.
    elg1.jpg IMG1791.jpg IMG_2900.jpg IMG_2899.jpg
     
  43. Mark UK

    Mark UK Registered User

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    Arrived today, grade 27 from 1889...
    IMG_4788.JPG IMG_4785.JPG IMG_4780.JPG IMG_4782.JPG
     
  44. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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