Show off all sizes of your BW Raymonds

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by musicguy, Mar 7, 2019.

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  1. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Benjamin Wright Raymond - Wikipedia
    "was an American politician who twice served as mayor of Chicago, Illinois"

    He was also the first president(1864-1867) of the National Watch Company(which later changed its name the
    The Elgin National Watch Company). The watches named for B W Raymond were made
    throughout Elgins lifetime(circa 1864-1968). In addition, the 18 size B.W. Raymond was The National
    Watch Companies(Elgin's) first production watch. For a majority of Elgin's lifetime the B.W. Raymond
    was the top of the line RR watch for Elgin.(before and after when the Veritas and Father Time were around)
    Elgin made 18 size, 16 size and 12 size BWR's. There were even B.W. Raymond wrist watches.
    And not to forget the Lady Raymond.

    After some digging I realized that this was my first BWR (16s 21j from 1928)
    This is my everyday watch. I bought this particular one because I wanted to use it everyday
    without worrying about it. The movement is far from perfect(cosmetically)
    but mechanically it run's very well. The case is also well worn and they made a lot of the BWR 478's.

    BWR.jpg IMG_7917.jpg

    24893099-E6FD-4689-A1F6-A8219BC44CB9.jpeg 5. 1928 (not serviced) Elgin Pocket Watch Open Face 16s PW LS 21j (2).jpg



    Rob
     
  2. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Here's one of mine; its in a Canadian-made, B.W. Raymond Model case.

    16S_21J_BWR_42282315.jpg
     
  3. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Another one of mine is the first of the grade No. 590.

    16S_21J_BWR_590_42988001.jpg
     
  4. Keith R...

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    My original sidewinder 18 size.

    Keith R...

    100_2650 (800x600).jpg 100_2640 (800x600).jpg 100_2644 (800x600).jpg
     
  5. Dave Coatsworth

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    This was among the first five watches I bought when I started collecting. #42174. 4 ounce coin case.

    Elgin42174Mvmt.jpg Elgin42174Case2.jpg Elgin42174Case1.jpg Elgin42174Dial.jpg
     
  6. Lee Passarella

    Lee Passarella Registered User
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    I've shown mine on a different thread, but just for documentary completeness here it is: c. 1888, 18s in a very chunky coin silver case.

    431659-4983be221b507f60454333fc729bda45.jpg 431660-17afda2dbda8fe8ab30d2f07f35d3b4e.jpg
     
  7. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    Here is the only one I have, from 1927. I am assuming the case is original. SN 30691742

    IMG_7847.JPG IMG_7848.JPG IMG_7849.JPG IMG_7850.JPG
     
  8. Lee Passarella

    Lee Passarella Registered User
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    Addendum to Post #6. Here's the movement.

    IMG_0436.JPG
     
  9. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    How about some pendant set Benjamin's!!

    I think you guys have seen my older ones so I'll throw some 1890s in here

    Grade 77. Left is 1891 right is 1894

    Why have two? Left is 15 jewel and right is 17.

    The 77s. 70s and 27s all went to 17 jewel in the 1890s.

    One of these days the left one in the nickel case will get a new set of hands... That minute hand is aweful.

    The pictures turned sideways somehow. Sorry.

    IMG_20190307_175513899.jpg IMG_20190307_175441463.jpg
     
  10. Rick Hufnagel

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    You saw my 27 in the silver case that's 15 jewel in another thread, but this one I don't think I've shown before. It's a 27 from 1898, last year of production. It has the correct awesome double sunk fleur de lis dial, and is 17 jewels.

    Thanks for this thread Rob!

    Who has the little 12s one??!!?? I would love to see that!

    IMG_20190307_175606285.jpg IMG_20190307_175541940.jpg
     
  11. Steven Thornberry

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    A 16s 17Jewel Elgin B.W. Raymond grade 341, model 8, class 125, previously discussed in this thread: Elgin B.W. Raymond.

    Dial.JPG Movement 6.JPG Movement 3.JPG
     
  12. Chris Radek

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    An old picture. A B.W.Raymond and a 3d-printed Utah Teapot.

    bwraymond.jpg
     
  13. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    Here is one of my B. W. Raymonds with available options. It is a grade 240 18s.

    DSC_0002a.jpg DSC_0004a.jpg
     
  14. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    This watch, being from the same era, goes with the ones shown in posts #2 & #3.

    16S_21J_BWR_No_478_Gold-Flashed_41306703.jpg
     
  15. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Here is the diminutive (5/0) Lady Raymond. Surprisingly it only has 15 jewels. Not nearly as impressive as its larger kin.
    LadyRaymond.jpg
     
  16. Nathan Moore

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    This Grade 273 B.W. Raymond is one of my favorites. Estimated production for the grade is only 880, usually within blocks of 10 or 20 at a time, making it one of the more scarce Raymond grades.

    IMG_5869.jpg IMG_5833 (1).jpg
     
  17. Nathan Moore

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    Grade 544 B.W Raymond, U.S. Army A.C. Estimated production for this grade is 200. (Not in the original case, unfortunately).

    IMG_5088 (1).jpg IMG_5079 (1).jpg
     
  18. Nathan Moore

    Nathan Moore Registered User
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    Elgin #135 B.W. Raymond, from the first run manufactured by the National Watch Company.

    IMG_4884 (1).jpg IMG_4878 (1).jpg
     
  19. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    From the first grade to the last (PW) grade; The No, 571 series:

    16S_21J_N0_571_372577.jpg 16S_21J_571-B_S951639.jpg 16S_21J_571-C_I51838.jpg
     
  20. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    Here is a couple of 16 size B. W. Raymonds that occupy similar cases. Both cases have the same exterior design with identical interior case back engravings (minus the serial #) for Pugh Brothers Jewelry.
    One is a 19 jewel grade 455. The other is a 21 jewel grade 391.

    DSC_0009a.jpg DSC_0007a.jpg DSC_0002a.jpg DSC_0005a.jpg
     
  21. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    #21 GeneJockey, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
    Raymonds....Let's see, I think I have one or two....

    Like these guys: 18s Keywind BWR from 1871; 16s 571 BWR from 1949; 13/0s730A BWR Railroad Wrist Chronometer from ~1961

    Raymonds 2.JPG

    Or these, all 16s: 23j 540 "Timemaster"from 1940; 21j 478 from 1943; 21j 590 from 1945; 21j 571 from 1949.

    Raymonds.jpg

    Or these - all 571s from the earliest to the last: 571a, from the second run of 571s in 1946 (technically not a Raymond); 571b from 1949; 571c from the last block of serials, sometime after 1955:

    Raymonds 3.jpg Raymonds 4.jpg


    (Note: the 571a/b/c nomenclature comes from Kent Singer's excellent NAWCC bulletin article "The Elgin 571 Revisited". After I read that, I HAD TO get a late and early model to go with my more typical 1949 one)

    EDIT: I also have an actual 1881 Grade 69 keywind BWR, which is distinct from the Model 1 BW Raymond keywind, and easily distinguishable visually. And a 1928 478 with blue hairspring, to go with the 1943 478 with its 'Elginium Y' hairspring.
     
  22. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Here are the "BWR" and "Grade 69" watches. The Grade 69 on the right is from 1881, after National Watch Company became Elgin National Watch Company.


    IMG_0962.jpg

    Here are the movements, again with the Grade 69 on the right. Sharp eyes will be able to identify several differences between the grades, though the most obvious one, the regulator, is actually not a difference between the grades, because genuine BWRs also came with the micrometric regulator.

    IMG_0965.jpg
     
  23. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Here's my 16s BWR of Grade 571, boasting 21j with 8 adjustments. Its Canadian railroad type dial sang out to me. I doubt that the pocket watch ever kept company with a steam locomotive, having been manufactured in 1952.

    BWR Mvt.jpg BWR Dial.jpg
     
  24. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Oh, I dunno. Apparently the last scheduled runs of steam-powered locomotives on Canadian National and Canadian Pacific railroads happened in 1960.
     
    Paul Sullivan, viclip and Keith R... like this.
  25. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    That article was written by Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer.
     
  26. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    No doubt. I was born in the 1950s & never saw a steam locomotive in action, wish I had. Guess I was born in the wrong part of this vast country. I do recall seeing 2 or 3 of them "warehoused" in a large structure owned by a local shortline known as the "Essex Terminal Railway", that would have been in the late 1950s or early 1960s.

    I've read that some Canadian shortlines kept steam locomotives running well beyond 1960. I imagine that for a shortline the initial capital expenditure entailed in transitioning to a diesel-electric engine would have been considerable.
     
  27. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Thanks, Kent! I couldn't remember Ed's name. I kept thinking "Uberoth? No, that's that sports announcer."

    Love the two articles, BTW!!!
     
  28. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    I don't know about north of the boarder, but steam was still running on the Long Island Rail Road (where I grew up) and on the New York Central System in the early-to-mid 1950s.
     
  29. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    I wish I could have witnessed a steam locomotive running a load of freight at full throttle. The sights, smells & sounds including physical vibration, must really have been something!
     
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  30. Rick Hufnagel

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    I've been looking for the first open faced lever set bw Raymond for a while. Just kind of poking around. Is the 180 the first one? 1898 with the lowest sn being 7131001. Am I missing a grade that's earlier? I've been looking for one casually with the premise that it is the first one, I just want to check with the experts! Or find out where I can find that info. Anyone have one?
     
  31. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    And mine :)

    IMG_2862.JPG

    Notice the early balance wheel arms shape (and mean time screws) - only some of the 3 digit BWRs have them :)
     
  32. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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  33. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    1913 12 size BWR 193

    s-l16f00.jpg DB81EF97-94F5-40AE-A122-41B0F9033887.jpeg
    s-l1600.jpg

    Rob
     
  34. grtnev

    grtnev Registered User
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    First two pictures are serial number: 13506599; 16 size, grade 361, B. W. Raymond, 17 j, Adj 5P, Model 13. Total Production was 1000 movements, all from 1907 from serial numbers 13506001 to 13507000.

    The Model 13 used the distinctive plates commonly referred to as the “Lord Elgin” style. The single run of the Grade 361, consisting of one thousand open-face movements, was made in 1907.
    I also have a 23j Veritas grade 350 (1000 total production in 1906), a 21j Veritas grade 360 (1000 total production in 1907) and am still on the hunt for a 23j Lord Elgin grade 351 (600 total production in 1906) to complete the set.

    The last two pictures are serial number 28029994, a grade 478 B. W. Raymond with wind indicator, ca 1925. Referencing other postings on this forum, “the Elgin BW Raymond, Grade 478, 16s, 21j, A5P was produced in quantity; with 185,400 made from 1922 to 1943. It is difficult to generalize from the known, documented examples but the wind indicator variants seem to be in blocks of 100 or, once in a while 200, with no non-WI watches reported within those blocks. If this is true, there were approximately 6,000 wind indicator versions of the BWR grade No. 478 built.”

    DSC02084.JPG DSC02079.JPG Dial 2.jpg Movement.jpg
     
  35. D Magner

    D Magner Registered User
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    B.W.Raymond 15 jewel from about 1889.
    David

    1871 Elgin 031 copy.jpg 1871 Elgin 047 copy.jpg
     
  36. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Since D Manger posted their grade 27 I figured I would post my 1887 one as well

    1887 Elgin BW Raymond Pocket Watch Hunter 18s PW LS 15j - Copy.jpg bwraymond.png

    IMG_1086 (2).jpg

    Rob
     
  37. Rick Hufnagel

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    #37 Rick Hufnagel, Mar 9, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
    Here's a couple more lady Raymond's.
    15 jewels unadjusted. Size 5/0

    Left is grade 380 from 1912
    7000 produced from 1910-12

    Right is grade 408 from 1915
    18000 produced between 1913 and 1917

    (Pocket watch database and elgintime website).


    The smallest pocket watch I own is a nice b&b royal case, Just as an example. I got it to case the lady Raymond, but the movement inside was in perfect shape, and I couldn't justify changing it. But it gives you an idea of what they would look like cased up.

    IMG_20190309_124054934.jpg 15521541879461326313383.jpg
     
  38. okiejohn

    okiejohn Registered User

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    Here's my BWR Grade 455, SN 21235944. 19j, 16S.

    577a70b0b5d5bc1d486f0bb68ec593a7.JPG 419295c41caef610d9291b71fa6e45d4.JPG
     
  39. okiejohn

    okiejohn Registered User

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    #39 okiejohn, Mar 11, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    and here's my BWR Grade 571... SN N46699 in a stainless steel Star Watch Co. case

    b4320c0923c7ae41653e713ba38afe62.JPG 6aec156f9049f1285b6a24698293c3f3.JPG
     
  40. Fritz Katzenjammer

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    #40 Fritz Katzenjammer, Mar 11, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    1925ish... one of my favorite watches to wear because the components of that dial are just so THICK!
    P1030833.JPG P1030849.JPG

    its the kind of watch you pull out, look at a bit too long and then place it back in your pocket only to realize you never saw the time, only the beautiful watch.
     
  41. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Here is another 18s, a 1903 19j BWR Grade 240

    24580515-00F9-49CF-95FF-DA5406852DBE (2).jpeg 665A4248-797E-48C6-AFF8-873F044BCD24 (2).jpeg


    Rob
     
  42. Rick Hufnagel

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    That dial is fantastic!

    Your gonna make me look and see if mine has raised jewel setting like that! Haha. Beautiful watch!
     
  43. Dave Coatsworth

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    I suppose I can add this one here as technically it is a grade 240 B. W. Raymond. Private label for H. V. Dalling of Woodstock, New Brunswick. Serial number 11586047.

    Elgin11586047Dial.jpg Elgin11586047Mvmt.jpg
     
  44. Rick Hufnagel

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    Here's another 240 in case Rob's, Dave's, and lovetheticks wasn't enough.

    This was my first watch. Had it since early 2000's I'd say. Thought it was broken for first couple years because I didn't know about the lever! Ha! One day I pulled it out of the drawer and the pocket watch bug hit me hard! Haven't stopped since.

    Nickel Philadelphia case, but it's original. You guys have way nicer dials.

    IMG_20181025_215157852.jpg IMG_20181025_215246145.jpg
     
  45. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Well, it is a BW Raymond thread. I originally had it one this side, in the early possible
    rail road thread, using seller photos. So here's my camera shots (but old camera still
    holding out).

    I've also been timing Verges with it.

    Keith R...

    100_4566 (1600x1200).jpg 100_4580 (1200x1600).jpg 100_4587 (1600x1200).jpg
     
  46. Chris Radek

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    I guess I had never thought about just how wide a variety of National/Elgin watches had the Raymond name on them. From the very first #10Xs through to some of the last, like the DuraBalance model on my wrist ... which brings me to another thought: we know a lot about the very first watches from the company, but do we know what the last watch was (before the vampires bought the name to try to suck remaining blood out of it I mean)?

    If we don't/can't know, I'm going to go ahead and assume it was a cal 780 in a BWR wrist watch.
     
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  47. Rick Hufnagel

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    I don't know... But that is definitely a question for genejockey!

    The last bwr wristie was a Swiss movement when Elgin started importing movements.

    Grade 873 . As1640b. 21 jewels
     
  48. Rick Hufnagel

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    1604b. Sorry not 1640
     
  49. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    There are a number of answers to that. Last BWR pocket watch? A 571 with a serial number over I387000. Last US built BWR? 780 wristie. Last BWBWRled Elgin product? The one Rick Hufnagel mentioned.
     
  50. PW Collector

    PW Collector Registered User

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    Grade 445, 16 size, 19 jewels, circa 1919.
    Dave

    DSCN0950.JPG DSCN0951.JPG
     

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