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MuensterMann

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I have been following the Sherline Mill for Bushings thread. I mostly do my bushing work with a KWM bushing machine, but want a better method to find securely find the original center. Thus, the Sherline mill sounds like a path I would want to take. I have two old lathes that I do not use - perhaps because they need parts. However, I have a need to bush barrels and I do not have a device to hold the barrels or lids in these old lathes. But, I see the Sherline lathe has the 3 and 4 jaw chucks that would hold the barrels/lids nicely. Can a Sherline Mill accomplish bushings for barrels/lids just the same? Or is the lathe a better tool for that? I also need a method to polish pivots, is a lathe the way to go? Perhaps a need both mill and lathe!
 

Uhralt

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I have been following the Sherline Mill for Bushings thread. I mostly do my bushing work with a KWM bushing machine, but want a better method to find securely find the original center. Thus, the Sherline mill sounds like a path I would want to take. I have two old lathes that I do not use - perhaps because they need parts. However, I have a need to bush barrels and I do not have a device to hold the barrels or lids in these old lathes. But, I see the Sherline lathe has the 3 and 4 jaw chucks that would hold the barrels/lids nicely. Can a Sherline Mill accomplish bushings for barrels/lids just the same? Or is the lathe a better tool for that? I also need a method to polish pivots, is a lathe the way to go? Perhaps a need both mill and lathe!
I have both the Sherline lathe and mill. For bushing barrels and lids I use the lathe. I widen the hole of a barrel or lid with a boring tool and then make a custom bushing from a piece of brass pipe or a solid brass rod, depending on what comes close to the size I need. For bushing plates I use the mill.

Uhralt
 
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John P

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We use the Sherline mill with a rotary table to bush barrels and caps. Any size great or small.
P9290087_01.JPG
This set up is using the controller to slowly rotate the barrel around as it is cut. Rotating by hand works fine but a push of a button will rotate
the table 360 degrees or one degree at a time.
The same end mill cutter is used for the entire job and no accuracy is lost changing tooling.



The cap is milled the same way.
P9290091_01.JPG rebushin a cap.JPG

Once a bushing is tightly fitted and sometimes left proud we machine that off
and then fit the arbor to the bushing.


P9290094_01.JPG P9290098_01.JPG
It takes a bit of practice and trial-error learning to get this down pat. You have to sneak up on the fit of things
when you get close and that's where the mill shines with such fine adjustments. As you can see it does a beautiful job.




SETUP time is about 10 minutes or less.
There are other ways to get this job done but this works so well for us and i cant think of a better way to do it.
 

MuensterMann

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Thanks John for your input! Perhaps I just need a Sherline mill and then perhaps I can get one of my old lathes to be my pivot polisher.
 

MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

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I have both the Sherline lathe and mill. For bushing barrels and lids I use the lathe. I widen the hole of a barrel or lid with a boring tool and then make a custom bushing from a piece of brass pipe or a solid brass rod, depending on what comes close to the size I need. For bushing plates I use the mill.

Uhralt
I agree. It is important that the hole be centered and for barrels that is most easily accomplished with a lathe and a 3 or 4 jaw chuck
 
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MuensterMann

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Yes, I see that the 3 or 4 jaw chuck is important to fit the size of the barrel and it is available with the Sherline lathes. Are they available for older jewelers lathes (Peerless or Marshall, for example)? If not, then may have to update my tools!

I can see how the barrel in a chuck provides for the hole to centered. Is the mounting of a bit in the tailstock assumed to be centered as well? Or, does there need to be a centering tool and adjusting the tailstock position? Thanks!
 

Uhralt

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Is the mounting of a bit in the tailstock assumed to be centered as well? Or, does there need to be a centering tool and adjusting the tailstock position?
Not quite sure what you mean, are you talking about a drill bit? The tailstock should be centered well enough for drilling most centered holes. For delicate work, like re-pivoting, Sherline offers an adjustable tailstock adapter. For larger holes in a barrel one would use a drill only for a smaller initial hole (in case one used a plug). Then one would use a boring tool, mounted in a tool post on the cross slide, to make the final, centered hole.

Uhralt
 

Vernon

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Concerning the jewelers lathe, I have seen the chucks that you mentioned that fit these (I'm not sure if it would open enough for your job) but the motors on these may be a bit too light duty for this work.
 

MuensterMann

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Uhralt, I meant either a drill bit or a reamer. It sounds like the tailstock and the headstock are center well enough for the boring of center hole in the barrel. Okay, but for more precise centering an adjustable tailstock is used.

Vernon, thanks for that bit of information. I may need an upgrade!
 

Uhralt

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Uhralt, I meant either a drill bit or a reamer. It sounds like the tailstock and the headstock are center well enough for the boring of center hole in the barrel. Okay, but for more precise centering an adjustable tailstock is used.

Vernon, thanks for that bit of information. I may need an upgrade!
Maybe I misunderstood, but I think you will have a hard time finding a drill bit or a reamer that has exactly the diameter you need for the hole in a barrel to fit the arbor. In my opinion, boring is the way to go.

Uhralt
 

MuensterMann

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Uhralt, I was speaking in general terms "to make a hole" and I was thinking of my bushing reamer. I have never performed this procedure before on a barrel, but now that you mention it - it would be a bigger hole than usual. Since you used the verb "to bore", what tool/procedure is typically used with the lathe? (disclaimer: I am not a machinist, but love clock repair)
 

gmorse

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Hi MuensterMann,

Since you used the verb "to bore", what tool/procedure is typically used with the lathe?
The process of boring in the lathe is quite different from drilling or reaming, because it involves cutting on one one side of the hole only. It's the most accurate way of making a hole exactly to size. Boring bars are available in a wide variety of sizes, and all have the characteristic that they cut on one side of the tool as it's introduced into the already drilled and undersized hole. Essentially, instead of turning the outside diameter, you're turning the inside, without the possibility of wandering inherent in drills and reamers.

Regards,

Graham
 
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kinsler33

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You can also bush a barrel or a cap without a lathe or a mill. I bought a selection of brass tubing from Timesavers. Find a size whose inside is smaller than your arbor and whose outside diameter is larger than the worn hole. Ream out the hole until the tubing is a press fit and then slice a thin slice of tubing off. Insert this into the hole and either solder it in or rivet it in. Then broach out the ID of the tubing to fit the arbor. If you have steadier hands and are better with a jeweler's saw than I am the finished repair looks very nice.

Some barrels and caps simply cannot be bushed due to weird clearance requirements. For these I just close up the hole with a hammer and a large (1.5") bearing ball I somehow acquired and then ream out the slightly-closed hole to fit the arbor.
 
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Uhralt

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Uhralt, I was speaking in general terms "to make a hole" and I was thinking of my bushing reamer. I have never performed this procedure before on a barrel, but now that you mention it - it would be a bigger hole than usual. Since you used the verb "to bore", what tool/procedure is typically used with the lathe? (disclaimer: I am not a machinist, but love clock repair)
Graham explained it very well.

Uhralt
 

R. Croswell

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It sounds like the tailstock and the headstock are center well enough for the boring of center hole in the barrel.
Having the hole in the barrel centered is just as important as having the pivot centered. You cannot expect a drill bit in a tail stock to bore true into a hole that is worn off-center or out of round. A boring bar as has been described will bore on the center of rotation of the lathe, but will be no more accurate than a drill bit if the barrel is not perfectly centered before starting the bore. Scroll chucks are not always that accurate and you may find that some larger barrels are larger than can be accommodated by the standard Sherline 3-jay chuck.

RC
 

Uhralt

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Scroll chucks are not always that accurate and you may find that some larger barrels are larger than can be accommodated by the standard Sherline 3-jay chuck.
That's why I've got Sherline's larger 3-jaw chuck and inverted the jaws to hold barrels. That works pretty well even for larger barrels. I use the "normal" 3-jaw chuck for turning the custom bushings for the barrels. I just got tired of having to turn the jaws around when switching from boring the hole to making the bushings.

Uhralt
 

Jerry Kieffer

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These discussions are always interesting.

Personally I make no apologies for being meticulous and a perfectionist.

As such, I typically bore a barrel hole ever so slightly just to clean it up and then sleeve the arbor to a desired fit. For myself, this is less work while producing an invisible repair that duplicates original conditions not mention it is a sound metal working practice.

Again, as such, I sometimes encounter previously installed barrel bushings. Since I will not except soft solder, chemicals and friction on a spring barrel and lids, I almost always replace previous barrel bushings since my name goes on the job.

I typically fill the enlarged hole as follows.

(1) The barrel hole is bored ever so slightly larger to assure centering and required size.

(2) The hole is then Tapped using a very fine Tap such as a 5/16 x 80 TPI as an example depending on hole size.

(3) I then tap matching solid stock with an adjustable matching die. The first few turns are standard fit with the next few turns enlarged by adjusting the Die. This is repeated two or three times.

(4) The stock is then threaded into the barrel until it is extremely tight from the progressively larger thread produced in step no. 3.

(5) I then machine both sides of the barrel flush and dress invisible. The resulting blank is then spot drilled, drilled and bored to desired size.

This procedure can be used on both barrels and lids.

Jerry Kieffer
 

fbicknel

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extremely tight from the progressively larger thread produced in step no. 3
So, like the way a pipe thread works, eh?
The resulting blank is then spot drilled, drilled and bored to desired size.
When you drill this, wouldn't it try to turn in the barrel? Obviously, you drill in the direction that would tend to tighten, but since you just machined flush, if it moved even a fraction of a degree, it would ruin all your careful flushing and dressing, no?

I can read between the lines that you've never had this happen, but that was the first thing that came to mind for me.
 

Jerry Kieffer

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So, like the way a pipe thread works, eh?

When you drill this, wouldn't it try to turn in the barrel? Obviously, you drill in the direction that would tend to tighten, but since you just machined flush, if it moved even a fraction of a degree, it would ruin all your careful flushing and dressing, no?

I can read between the lines that you've never had this happen, but that was the first thing that came to mind for me.
I can see where my explanation may be slightly confusing. As mentioned, solid stock is threaded into the barrel or lid. It is then parted off leaving a stub left in the barrel. The stub is then machined flush on the front and back and dressed flush. Again as mentioned, the stock was threaded as tight as threads permit with a strength of withstanding many times any machining or drilling procedure regardless of direction. Yes the threading procedure acts like a tapered thread.

Jerry Kieffer
 
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MuensterMann

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Having the hole in the barrel centered is just as important as having the pivot centered. You cannot expect a drill bit in a tail stock to bore true into a hole that is worn off-center or out of round. A boring bar as has been described will bore on the center of rotation of the lathe, but will be no more accurate than a drill bit if the barrel is not perfectly centered before starting the bore. Scroll chucks are not always that accurate and you may find that some larger barrels are larger than can be accommodated by the standard Sherline 3-jay chuck.
Graham: Thank you for the boring explanation! [pun intended] I imagine there is a boring bit (boring bar) that is used in the lathe for this purpose.

RC: As for size of a 3 or 4 way chuck, it appears that it is better to get the 3 1/8" one as opposed to the 2.5 " one fro Sherline. Good data. If the chucks are not always accurate, how do you deal with inaccuracy for this particular job? Or, is it good enough in terms of barrels?
 

gmorse

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Hi MuensterMann,

I imagine there is a boring bit (boring bar) that is used in the lathe for this purpose.
Yes, it's set up in the tool post like any other cutter.

If the chucks are not always accurate, how do you deal with inaccuracy for this particular job?
If a scrolling chuck, (one where all the jaws move together), isn't accurate enough, then an independent 4-jaw will allow you to set each jaw separately so that the barrel will run true. Test using a dial indicator on the outside of the barrel. It takes a little longer, but you end up with a better job.

Regards,

Graham
 

MuensterMann

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Thanks Graham! Okay, that is the difference between the two jaw types and how to achieve center. And, a dial indicator is an important tool to have to measure. This really helps my understanding and what I may need to make sure I have.
 

Uhralt

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Test using a dial indicator on the outside of the barrel.
Sometimes this is problematic if the barrel has been deformed in the past, for example by a broken spring. This would give you an incorrect reading. In that case I would rely on the self-centering 3 jaw chuck. For most barrel repairs the accuracy is sufficient. Maybe not for a barrel with very fine, shallow teeth.

Uhralt
 

gmorse

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Hi Uhralt,

Sometimes this is problematic if the barrel has been deformed in the past, for example by a broken spring. This would give you an incorrect reading. In that case I would rely on the self-centering 3 jaw chuck. For most barrel repairs the accuracy is sufficient. Maybe not for a barrel with very fine, shallow teeth.
Yes, you're right. However, if the teeth themselves aren't damaged, you can use the dial on a tooth in several positions to get as close as possible to running true. If the teeth are mashed as well, then you have other problems!

Regards,

Graham
 

Uhralt

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Hi Uhralt,



Yes, you're right. However, if the teeth themselves aren't damaged, you can use the dial on a tooth in several positions to get as close as possible to running true. If the teeth are mashed as well, then you have other problems!

Regards,

Graham
True, that would work too.

Uhralt
 

MuensterMann

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Would using a mill in the same way for clock plate bushing work for the barrel? As I am writing this I am thinking how to hold the barrel......
 

Vernon

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One of the members here uses the mill but he has the barrel mounted on the rotary table.
Uhralt's post two is what I do.
I have both the Sherline lathe and mill. For bushing barrels and lids I use the lathe. I widen the hole of a barrel or lid with a boring tool and then make a custom bushing from a piece of brass pipe or a solid brass rod, depending on what comes close to the size I need. For bushing plates I use the mill.

Uhralt
 

MuensterMann

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Seems most use lathe. However, always interested in the mill method - since I will be buying a mill first for bushing.
 

Vernon

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Well, all we have to do is scroll up to post three. You might private message John P.
 

John P

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P1010139.JPG

Here is the rotary table and mine came with a motor and controller. I think this costs extra. For this operation i use the hand wheel only.
It mounts on to the mill using standard hardware and uses a 3 jaw chuck to hold the barrel or cap to be bushed.
Once mounted, you would lower the end mill cutter into the hole and start cutting on the good side, bit by bit until the hole is round. I use the hand wheel to slowly rotate the barrel in a direction that throws the chips out of the work, not passing them thru.
MILL SET FOR BARRELS (4).JPG MILL SET FOR BARRELS (2).JPG

Then continue cutting until it will accept a bushing that will work for you. You want a tight fit and use a bushing that sits proud of the barrel so you can lightly brad it in. Then you remount the barrel in the chuck and open up the bushing to fit the arbor.

One must pay attention because some barrels are thicker in the center where the arbor runs. You can set the bushing deep into the barrel to replace any boss you may have removed when fitting the bush to barrel. Then turn the barrel over in the chuck and fit end shake of the arbor with the same end mill.
Hermle barrels have no boss but some french and german barrels do.

After a bit of practice you will be able to restore any mainspring barrel or cap very quickly with an accuracy that would be hard to duplicate.
 

Bruce Alexander

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I'm sure that's a very nice accessory to have and I imagine you can do a lot with it, but if it is the same thing I'm looking at here: CNC Rotary Table Indexer – Sherline Products you can buy a 17" Lathe for less: 17″ Lathe – Sherline Products

With the proper set up, I think you can use your Mill as a Lathe for work such as this. Check with Jerry Kieffer to explore all of your options before making a purchase decision would be my advice.

Bruce
 

bangster

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Mark Butterworth (Butterworth Clocks) carries Sherline lathes.
 

MuensterMann

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As for repairing barrels and barrel lids with a lathe, what "boring" items should I order with my Sherline lathe?
 

shutterbug

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Pretty much what you'd use for bushing. The lids might be a challenge to hold straight in the jaws though. A four jaw chuck would be best, but you could make a 3 jaw work too.
 

Uhralt

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Pretty much what you'd use for bushing. The lids might be a challenge to hold straight in the jaws though. A four jaw chuck would be best, but you could make a 3 jaw work too.
In addition to what is needed for standard bushings, you will need a small boring bar to work on barrels and lids.. I found it best to put the lid back to the empty barrel in order to ream the lid hole for a bushing. This way you can make sure that the hole in the lid is concentric to the barrel.

Uhralt
 

Jerry Kieffer

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As for repairing barrels and barrel lids with a lathe, what "boring" items should I order with my Sherline lathe?
Muenster
Thats a good question.

Sherline makes a tool post (first photo) with a 3/8" hole designed to hold standard 3/8" shank boring bars. However, these boring bars are generally to large for horological work.

A far more practical and accurate selection is available with 3/16" and 1/8" shank solid carbide boring bars. These can be shimmed and utilized in the Lathe tool slot but it is a pain to setup for each use.

To use these, I simply drill a 1/8" and 3/16" hole in a standard tool post using the lathe spindle and install a couple of setscrews per second photo. The second photo shows a 1/8" boring bar installed and a red arrow pointing to the 3/16" hole in another direction. Because these bars are a center cut, they automatically center when installed if the hole is drilled with the lathe spindle.

A sample selection of this type of boring bars can be seen in the right hand chart in the following link.


When ordering pay attention to Shank diameter, Min. hole size and depth of cut. Do not order depth of cut any greater than is required as the greater the depth, the less rigid the bar becomes.

Jerry Kieffer

fullsizeoutput_8b4.jpeg fullsizeoutput_8b9.jpeg
 

MuensterMann

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Ah, interesting. I am glad I asked the question. I found this video:
and it seems that the person had to make a homemade holder as well. Glad I have seen this video and asked the question here. I was thinking that the boring bar would be like a drill bit where the diameter is the size of the hole. However, I see the boring bar is smaller and actually removes diameter as the lathe spins. I was thinking I needed to buy a boring head and tools (bars) from Sherline.
 

shutterbug

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Interesting! I never would have thought to use a Dremel burr as the boring bar. That's my lathe too, and I never heard of reversing the jaws. But for caps, I have purchased a larger cap and trimmed down the outer diameter to fit the barrel. Six of one and a half dozen of the other. Whichever is faster ;)
 

MuensterMann

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Is a Dremel burr and boring bar similar? And the technique to make the hole larger to accommodate a bushing the same?

Is the center of the hole maintained with this method??

Shutterbug: So, you find a new cap with the same hole size and then just make the lid diameter to match the barrel?
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Is a Dremel burr and boring bar similar? And the technique to make the hole larger to accommodate a bushing the same?

Is the center of the hole maintained with this method??

Shutterbug: So, you find a new cap with the same hole size and then just make the lid diameter to match the barrel?
Muenster

The use of boring bars is covered in the Sherline Manual that comes with the lathe.

However, If you once use a boring bar, you will never use a dremel bur for the same purpose.

Boring bars will machine a hole to the center of spindle rotation. Another words if a particular OD is held in a self centering chuck, then a hole machined with a boring bar will be centered to that OD.

If you own a Sherline, (Or even a Unimat) I would strongly suggest that you read the Sherline instruction guide as many times as it takes to under stand each machining procedure. Repair and construction of Horological movements only requires basic machining practices that are all covered in this guide. Initial practice on steel is best done with standard 12L14 steel until procedures are mastered.

Jerry Kieffer
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Interesting! I never would have thought to use a Dremel burr as the boring bar. That's my lathe too, and I never heard of reversing the jaws. But for caps, I have purchased a larger cap and trimmed down the outer diameter to fit the barrel. Six of one and a half dozen of the other. Whichever is faster ;)
Shutterbug

I am very familiar with Unimat Lathes and have four in my Tool collection.

They were very interesting when introduced and of course I had to have one, While quite Versatile, they do have their issues and challenges.
However, life with these machine can be a little more enjoyable with the proper instruction guide that came with the machines per example in the first photo. They are often available on E-Bay

The main purpose for this post was to provide the the proper sequence when reversing your jaws second photo. Without it, life will be a little less enjoyable.

Jerry Kieffer


fullsizeoutput_8bd.jpeg fullsizeoutput_8bb.jpeg
 

shutterbug

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Thanks, Jerry. I'll see if I can find one.

Muenster - Yes, I've done that a few times successfully. You can mount the cap on a bolt with a couple of washers and a nut and mount it in the chuck. The bolt size needs to match the hole pretty closely. I'm sure there are better ways :)
 
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Wayne A

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Don't know if this was the best way to hold the smaller boring bars but its been working for what I do. Just made adapters to fit them.

20210922_082121.jpg
 

MuensterMann

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Yes, I plan to use a boring bar with my Sherline lathe (just learning all about it). I did read the Sherline instructions that came with the lathe, but not much about boring. I did look up the difference between drilling (make hole), boring (make hole bigger) and reaming (finish hole to be smooth).

It seems that I do not need any boring items from Sherline, since the bore tool will be smaller than what Sherline offers. With that said, I will be making some sort of holder to hold the boring bar. It also seems that I should have have a boring bar (or an assortment of bars) to either match the size of the hole (diameter) for a sleeve or bushing to fit snugly.

Okay, the boring bar will be centered to the center of the hole being bored. Thus, why I need boring bars to match the correct diameter.

So, the video shows a method to accomplish the same thing - however, it may not be the best method. Perhaps the method does not guarantee a centered hole:???:
 

Vernon

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Munster,

The bore bar size will depend on the size hole that you are starting with. The bar just needs to be able to enter comfortably. Jump to a larger size as the hole size and demands increase. You are only cutting on one side of the hole and moving the cross slide to increase hole size. This bar is a Sherline product, of course others may be available.

Vernon

IMG_20180712_183015.jpg
 
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MuensterMann

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Thanks Vernon! That explanation hit the spot. It follows the that video pretty well - just that the operator did not use a boring bar.

So, when talking about being centered, the height is centered (vertical). Then the horizontal (cross slide) is moved to hit the hole diameter and then to start cutting at it.

I am getting there!

Sounds like it is best to make the holder. Not sure if Sherline sells a holder that would work for me - as Jerry mentioned that what they sell is too big (3/8 inch). Vernon, as I am looking at your photo, did you do what Jerry did?
 

MuensterMann

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Sorry, I meant make your own holder (hole in holder, and set screw in side)? Or did you hold it using another technique?? Thanks!
 

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