Shellac solvent alternatives?

[Schatznut]

I'm refinishing a late-1940's Juba tambour clock that has perfect woodwork but the original shellac finish was coming off in big chunks. I've got it stripped and ready to take a new finish, and my dewaxed orange shellac flakes should arrive soon. But I live in California, which has imposed a ban on the sale of denatured alcohol, so I'm in a quandary. I've read a lot of opinions but I'm wondering if someone has successful hands-on experience with an alternative solvent. Appreciate any help you can offer.

 

[svenedin]

As you know, shellac is usually dissolved in Ethanol but it will also dissolve in Methanol or Isopropyl alcohol. Denatured alcohol is Ethanol with some methanol, a dye and a bittering agent.

 

[T.Cu]

Alcohol quickly absorbs water anyway, and so if you have to buy some in a small quantity, like from a drug store, don't get the 70% stuff, you need the 99% or whatever stronger stuff they offer. I needed higher quantities, so I had to have a bunch of 99% shipped to me from Washington to California.

 

[Schatznut]

Ironically, I can get reagent-grade (>99% pure) methanol here. I'll give that a try.

 

[svenedin]

Ironically, I can get reagent-grade (>99% pure) methanol here. I'll give that a try.

That will work but it is more volatile than ethanol and will evaporate faster. You might be better with isopropyl alcohol

 

[Schatznut]

I'll mix up a couple of test batches using methanol and isopropanol and test them on some scrap veneer first. I'm not worried about the volatility of methanol but I am concerned about isopropanol's affinity for water.

 

[svenedin]

I'll mix up a couple of test batches using methanol and isopropanol and test them on some scrap veneer first. I'm not worried about the volatility of methanol but I am concerned about isopropanol's affinity for water.

Please let us know. I have read that isopropyl alcohol gives a longer working time that is advantageous but I have never tried it myself. I use what is called methylated spirits in the U.K. (denatured ethanol).

 

[Schatznut]

I'll report my progress - it will be a while yet, as I've got a lot of projects to get out of the way before I can concentrate on the fun stuff.

 

[demoman3955]

Ironically, I can get reagent-grade (>99% pure) methanol here. I'll give that a try.

race car supply places sell methanol for race cars, and i bet they would give ya a splash to try. what part of california? in the bay area, i think in san leandro, theres ERC race gas which used to have ethanol.

 

[Schatznut]

race car supply places sell methanol for race cars, and i bet they would give ya a splash to try. what part of california? in the bay area, i think in san leandro, theres ERC race gas which used to have ethanol.

Thanks for the tip! I'm in San Diego County, the southernmost part of the state.

 

[demoman3955]

Thanks for the tip! I'm in San Diego County, the southernmost part of the state.

I did some research and here is one company you can search a dealer for them by putting in your zip code. its the M1 product number.

Racing Fuel: 70+ Proprietary Race Fuel Blends | VP Racing Fuels

VP Racing Fuels engineers over 70 proprietary leaded and unleaded race fuel blends - proven to make more power! We have fuels for every racing application.

vpracingfuels.com

 

[Arthur Cagle]

How about cheap vodka? I've heard that some of that stuff would peel paint, lol, so it probably would work on shellac! Seriously, worth a shot (pun intended)!

It's a wonder California hasn't banned breathing air...but they're probably working on it.

 

[Schatznut]

How about cheap vodka? I've heard that some of that stuff would peel paint, lol, so it probably would work on shellac! Seriously, worth a shot (pun intended)!

It's a wonder California hasn't banned breathing air...but they're probably working on it.

The problem, as I understand it, is the water content of the alcohol. 80 proof is 40% water, and even cheap isopropanol is more pure than that. Reagent grades are >99% alcohol and they're available.

A long time ago we in California got tired of our dirty air and decided to do something about it. We passed bond issues and supported the California Air Resources Board's establishment of emissions standards better than federal standards. There are certain things we can't get, like denatured alcohol, but that's a small concession to make. We opted to pay for clean air and we've now got it. Yeah, it's an expensive place to live but it's worth it.

 

[demoman3955]

The problem, as I understand it, is the water content of the alcohol. 80 proof is 40% water, and even cheap isopropanol is more pure than that. Reagent grades are >99% alcohol and they're available.

A long time ago we in California got tired of our dirty air and decided to do something about it. We passed bond issues and supported the California Air Resources Board's establishment of emissions standards better than federal standards. There are certain things we can't get, like denatured alcohol, but that's a small concession to make. We opted to pay for clean air and we've now got it. Yeah, it's an expensive place to live but it's worth it.

hahaha i moved from there 5 years ago to oregon, and where im at, we have clean air, plenty of water and still have the stuff that california banned. Working construction, i seen all things that were bad for you and why they were banned or had to be cleaned up in the name of safety, and its more about money and whos pockets it goes into, which is sad. lol

 

[Schatznut]

OK, here's a progress report.

Interestingly, even though denatured alcohol is not for sale in California, ethyl alcohol (denatured) is still made and distributed here, so I bought a gallon of it. It's no more expensive than other technical-grade alcohols (>99% pure).

I mixed my dewaxed orange shellac flakes into the alcohol at a 2# cut and put the bottle in the sun for a while to warm it gently. It dissolved slowly but completely with a lot of agitation.

I'm practicing on a scrap of walnut veneer, which I prepped with #0000 steel wool. The shellac is very thin, so it is going to take many coats to build up an appreciable film thickness, and it will never completely fill the grain structure of the wood. This is fine with me, as I don't want to obscure the beautiful grain on the clock case. If one wants a perfectly smooth glossy finish, using a grain filler would be necessary.

There is a thread in this forum regarding the proper type of brush to use, and one person in England with a lot of experience was adamant, even dogmatic, that one must use a brush called a "mop" rather than a conventional brush. Of course artists' mop brushes are rare and expensive on this side of the pond, so my wife gave me a cosmetic makeup brush that sure looks like a mop. Here's an example on eBay that is similar:

BOBBI BROWN Full Coverage Face Foundation Powder Brush Brand New Sealed 716170109640 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for BOBBI BROWN Full Coverage Face Foundation Powder Brush Brand New Sealed at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

It works perfectly, and I'm able to float the shellac onto the veneer very evenly. In dry air, the alcohol flashes off quickly so coats can be added at a decent pace. I have found that once the grain is sealed with the first couple of coats, the shellac floats on more evenly if it is brushed on across the grain instead of with it. I keep my mop soaking in isopropyl alcohol between coats. Using a mop, I'm convinced one could mix the shellac to a 3# cut and be successful getting it onto the surface smoothly. This would build the film more quickly.

I can see why manufacturers ditched shellac as soon as viable lacquers and varnishes became available. Relative to more modern finishes, it's time-consuming to work with, and will take a large number of coats to build adequate film thickness. However, the veneer I'm working with is starting to develop a very pretty sheen, and when it's finished, it's going to look beautiful. I'll post a photo after I get another couple of coats on it.

More to follow.

 

[svenedin]

OK, here's a progress report.

Interestingly, even though denatured alcohol is not for sale in California, ethyl alcohol (denatured) is still made and distributed here, so I bought a gallon of it. It's no more expensive than other technical-grade alcohols (>99% pure).

I mixed my dewaxed orange shellac flakes into the alcohol at a 2# cut and put the bottle in the sun for a while to warm it gently. It dissolved slowly but completely with a lot of agitation.

I'm practicing on a scrap of walnut veneer, which I prepped with #0000 steel wool. The shellac is very thin, so it is going to take many coats to build up an appreciable film thickness, and it will never completely fill the grain structure of the wood. This is fine with me, as I don't want to obscure the beautiful grain on the clock case. If one wants a perfectly smooth glossy finish, using a grain filler would be necessary.

There is a thread in this forum regarding the proper type of brush to use, and one person in England with a lot of experience was adamant, even dogmatic, that one must use a brush called a "mop" rather than a conventional brush. Of course artists' mop brushes are rare and expensive on this side of the pond, so my wife gave me a cosmetic makeup brush that sure looks like a mop. Here's an example on eBay that is similar:

BOBBI BROWN Full Coverage Face Foundation Powder Brush Brand New Sealed 716170109640 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for BOBBI BROWN Full Coverage Face Foundation Powder Brush Brand New Sealed at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

It works perfectly, and I'm able to float the shellac onto the veneer very evenly. In dry air, the alcohol flashes off quickly so coats can be added at a decent pace. I have found that once the grain is sealed with the first couple of coats, the shellac floats on more evenly if it is brushed on across the grain instead of with it. I keep my mop soaking in isopropyl alcohol between coats. Using a mop, I'm convinced one could mix the shellac to a 3# cut and be successful getting it onto the surface smoothly. This would build the film more quickly.

I can see why manufacturers ditched shellac as soon as viable lacquers and varnishes became available. Relative to more modern finishes, it's time-consuming to work with, and will take a large number of coats to build adequate film thickness. However, the veneer I'm working with is starting to develop a very pretty sheen, and when it's finished, it's going to look beautiful. I'll post a photo after I get another couple of coats on it.

More to follow.

The best mops for this purpose are made from Squirrel fur (usually called Zorino in this context). However, I don't use a brush I use a "rubber" which is made from a piece of cotton or linen cloth wrapped around cotton rags or cotton wool. Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) will work fine. Shellac does dissolve well in ethanol which is why spills of spirits like Brandy at Christmas makes such a mess of a French polished dining table (I don't know how many times my dining table has needed repair due to this!!!)

 

[Schatznut]

I had immediate success yesterday applying the shellac to the test piece, so rather than waste any more time on it, I cut to the chase and started refinishing the clock case. It went amazingly well, and I cut back and polished the case this morning. I now understand the advantages of the mop brush - it holds a significant amount of shellac, and its bristles are so soft that the finish just glides onto the surface like glass. I'm sure similar results would be achieved using a pad; I just happened to have this brush available so I used it. When cutting the finish back, I went straight to 600 grit and mineral oil, and it was already so smooth that there were only slight imperfections to be knocked down. I then rubbed it down with 0000 steel wool soaked in mineral oil and applied a coat of wax.

The old finish was so brittle that I removed most of it dry, with a cabinet scraper. The wood underneath was in perfect condition, so all I needed to do was prep it with 0000 steel wool and wipe with a tack cloth. The final finish is 8-10 coats thick and shows off the beautiful wood grain to best advantage.

Before and after photos are below.





I have already overhauled the movement and I've got to put it back in the case - right now!

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

What a fine job on the Juba! It should look wonderful for years to come.

 

[Schatznut]

Thank you, Thomas! It came out so much better than I was expecting. Here it is, all finished up. It had lived on Florida's Gulf Coast before I got it, and the brass of the bezel and dial were badly corroded. Fortunately, I was able to get it all polished up without damaging the cream--colored paint on the dial.

Because I had no idea how much shellac it would take, I mixed up *way* more than was necessary, and since it has a shelf life of about six months, I've got a couple more beat-up old tambour clocks coming so I can use up the excess material. I may try a french polish on one of them just for the experience.