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Shellac & More Case Restoration

lamarw

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OK Guys, I am making progress. This is kind of a follow-on to Drew's previous thread. The Orange Shellac process is progressing nicely with Bob, Craig, and Tom's instructions. I have about twenty coats on now and it is working great. I performed the first 10 or so applications with just the Orange Shellac mixed with denatured alcohol without any difficulty. I am glad I did not have Drew's problems. I then received my mail order of the pumice, rottenstone, and the Shellac-Wet that Bob mentioned. It was time for my next mix of Orange Shellac, and I mixed in the Shellac-Wet. Bob, it does make a noticable differnce. I have found the last ten coats or so of application so much smoother. Seems like drying times maybe quicker but not sure of that. I am about ready for the wet sanding, pumice, rottenstone process. Wet sanding is straight forward, but with the pumice and rottenstone I have an additonal question. How do you apply? Do you form a paste with the paraffin oil and fine powders or do you apply a coat of paraffin oil and then sprinkle on the pumice polish and later rottenstone in the same kind of application? I am leaning toward a mild paste.

Couple of little things I have discovered. In tight corners and along edges - the use of Q-tips coated with the Shellac works great. It also does not seem to leave any fibers if you change Q-Tips often. You really don't need that many. I have also found my rubber applicator better at more the golf ball size than the tangerine size. I assume modifying the size of the rubber applicator to the size of the project is wise. I will be doing a desk top, and I think the tangerine size will be preferable. Another pre-shellac but more of a veneer trick. Use kitchen wax paper (not plastic wrap) between your newly glued appled veneer piece and the clamp or clamping boards. The hide glue will not stick to the wax paper, and you have a clean release when releasing the clamps or other materials that helped you clamp on the new veneer.

It is looking so great that I am almost afraid of the rub - So - Back to the question - Should I form a paste or do a sprinkle with the pumice/rottenstone and parrafin oil?
 

lamarw

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Shellac & More Case Restoration

OK Guys, I am making progress. This is kind of a follow-on to Drew's previous thread. The Orange Shellac process is progressing nicely with Bob, Craig, and Tom's instructions. I have about twenty coats on now and it is working great. I performed the first 10 or so applications with just the Orange Shellac mixed with denatured alcohol without any difficulty. I am glad I did not have Drew's problems. I then received my mail order of the pumice, rottenstone, and the Shellac-Wet that Bob mentioned. It was time for my next mix of Orange Shellac, and I mixed in the Shellac-Wet. Bob, it does make a noticable differnce. I have found the last ten coats or so of application so much smoother. Seems like drying times maybe quicker but not sure of that. I am about ready for the wet sanding, pumice, rottenstone process. Wet sanding is straight forward, but with the pumice and rottenstone I have an additonal question. How do you apply? Do you form a paste with the paraffin oil and fine powders or do you apply a coat of paraffin oil and then sprinkle on the pumice polish and later rottenstone in the same kind of application? I am leaning toward a mild paste.

Couple of little things I have discovered. In tight corners and along edges - the use of Q-tips coated with the Shellac works great. It also does not seem to leave any fibers if you change Q-Tips often. You really don't need that many. I have also found my rubber applicator better at more the golf ball size than the tangerine size. I assume modifying the size of the rubber applicator to the size of the project is wise. I will be doing a desk top, and I think the tangerine size will be preferable. Another pre-shellac but more of a veneer trick. Use kitchen wax paper (not plastic wrap) between your newly glued appled veneer piece and the clamp or clamping boards. The hide glue will not stick to the wax paper, and you have a clean release when releasing the clamps or other materials that helped you clamp on the new veneer.

It is looking so great that I am almost afraid of the rub - So - Back to the question - Should I form a paste or do a sprinkle with the pumice/rottenstone and parrafin oil?
 

Robert M.

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Lamar,it makes me proud to be an American when you talk like that. :)First of all you'll want to start your rubbing process with your pumices .I don't know whether you bought both grades(coarse and fine) if so you'll obviously start with the coarse pumice then the fine pumice,and last but not least the rottenstone.(very fine abrasive).Get yourself a pc. of cotton tee shirt and saturate it with paraffin oil,not to the point where its dripping all over you but kinda wet.Then sprinkle a fair amout of pumice on your rag.Don't put it on your saturated rag like you're putting Parmesan Cheese on your sphagetti but apply enough to your rag to cover the rubbing side of your rag.take that ole rag and commence rubbing in the direction of the grain.Rub until you see some noticabble difference in the gloss of your Shellac.Don't forget you still have two more rub outs to go so don't beat it in the ground.And remember to wipe your case off ocassionally to check your rubbing progress.You'll do this with all three applications.Repeat this process with the fine pumice and don't forget to do the inspection thing.Once you are happy with your pumice progess its time to move on to the coup de grace,rottenstone,No big deal just rub your case out the same way as the previous instructions.Personally I like to get a little aggresive with the rottenstone becuse I think it really does a Helluva job making that Shellac glow.Hey!did you wipe that rottenstone off your case to check your progress,don't forget to do that.You'll also want to use a separate rag for each abrasive application.One for each pumice and another rag for your rottenstone.If you're comfortable with your sanding techniques the only thing I would suggest to you is not to get too aggressive.Many a quality Shellac application has been damaged by a heavy hand.All you want to do are knock the nibs down not change the complexion of the case.Nuff said about that.You take your good ole time and rub that case out with the items you purchased you going to be a real happy camper when all is said and done.Remember,slow and steady wins the race every time.
I'm glad you liked the Shellac-Wet.I was afraid I might be delusional and I just imagined it helped.Personally I swear by it.Thank you for the wax paper suggestion.I think Craig is a big proponent of that method also.
Well Lamar I hope all this rambling was of some help to you.Craig was a tremendous help to me when I started and if I can pass on that gesture of kindness nothing would make me happier well almost nothing,but thats another story. :)Thank you for posting your question.Best of luck with your clockcase.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton
 

lamarw

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Thanks Bob, That application process for the pumice and rottenstone does make good sense, and I guess that is why I did not think of it. I did get both grades of pumice that you suggested, and I am using your cheat sheet. I will start the process with your additional helpful guidance. The 4F pumice did provide instructions, but failed to mention that one step of how to apply. Got it down now with your additonal assist. Glad I ask first.

I am in total agreement, the Shellac-wet is good stuff. Makes you wonder what is in it?

I should of known that someone had thought of the wax paper before I did for veneer application. It is possible that I read it, and it stuck somewhere that wax paper would not.

Thanks for all your help. Best Regards,
 
D

DrewV

Shellac & More Case Restoration

I'll second what Robert said about not being overly-aggressive with the sandpaper. I've wet-sanded tons of other projects over the years, but even with all that experience I still managed to sand through the shellac on the door of my Ogee, not once, but TWICE. Set me back probably 2 weeks trying to recover and build the finish back up. Do like he says, knock down the high spots and leave it at that!

My mistake was thinking that the 20-something coats of shellac that I had applied were actually thick enough to fill all the grain completely. Well, it POSSIBLY did, but the difference between filling the grain and sanding through the high spots is about 0.00001". That 400 grit paper sands through the entire finish like butter in about 3 seconds. Take it easy, take your time, and ONLY knock down the irregular finish. Don't try to get it all down smooth (eliminating all the grain voids), because it probably won't happen, unless you've got a LOT of shellac on there.

The 0000 steel wool rubdown will make those voids go away anyways, so don't worry too much about what the finish looks like after you've finished with the sandpaper.

There, I feel better. I just hope I don't make the same mistake a THIRD time... sheesh.
 

lamarw

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Thank You Drew, The voice of experiece does scream out to this endeavor.

My project basically started out with a label and is progressing from there. The project is a Seth Thomas Large Rosewood Gilt Column 8-Day Weight Driven with a beautiful Lyre Movement. I think before the project is over, I will of encountered almost every aspect of clock restoration.

The next step will be the reverse paintings restoration that will have to be professionally done. The current ones are about 80%. Sooth's latest post on that subject and other's help will accomplish that part.

I am still dealing with the proper dial. i am currently on my third attempt of trial and error in that area. I am a perfectionist.

The beat goes on.
 

Robert M.

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Man I'm sure glad Drew posted a reply.I forgot to mention that before you do the abrasive thing you will want to rub your case out with wool lube and 0000 steel wool but I think you can cheat and use paraffin oil.As long as you have a lubricant I don't see a problem.Don't get too aggressive with the steel wool.Remember you still have three polishing phases left after you steel wool your case.Rub with the grain and check your progress frequently.
Mucho sorry about the careless omission Lamar and thank you Drew for mentioning the steel wool.
Best of luck with your clockcase.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton
 
D

DrewV

Shellac & More Case Restoration

I spoke with Craig briefly about using the steel wool. His opinion was that a heavier lubricant (like wool lube or paste wax) was needed in order to prevent deep scratches in the finish from the wool.

He expected that the paraffin oil would be too thin to be effective as a lubricant, although he invited me to try it for myself just to see.

I believe that I may try using a thicker oil (possibly Olive Oil) as a lubricant for the steel wool instead of paraffin oil. That way, I won't have to spend extra time trying to remove the wax before going to the pumice rubdown.

One other thing to mention is that it's not necessarily required to use 2F, 4F, then rottenstone to achieve the proper finish. In fact, most cases (especially Ogees) that I've seen have such a dull satin finish that you probably could stop right with the steel wool and wax, without polishing any further with pumice or rottenstone.

Just my opinion, but I'm currently working on two Ogees. One has a nice tight-grained walnut veneer that I will at least polish with pumice and probably rottenstone just to see how much detail I can bring out before applying wax. But the other has a spectacular mahogany burl veneer that I will definitely not go beyond the pumice, and probably in fact will stop at the steel wool.

I guess what I'm saying is that for a finish, not only does it depend on the style of clock, but also the type of wood that's used, to determine where to stop in the rubbing out stages. Fine Vienna clocks or French regulators might be best with a rottenstone polishing, but your average Ogee would probably look more "authentic" with a straight steel wool or at most a pumice rubdown.

Frankly, I was very surprised at the quality of the finish obtained with the steel wool and wax. It really did look authentically antique. No scratches, no "dull" finish, but a nice matte/satin sheen that really did look like it had a great aged patina.

Just my opinion, of course. It's your clock, do what you prefer.
 

lamarw

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Let's see if I have this down correctly. Bob & Drew correct me if I am wrong. Steps after the orange shellac applications (about 20 or more) and cured for about 24 hours;

1. Using a lubricant olive oil/parafin oil go over the case with 0000 steel wool or equivalent.

2. using a soft cloth clean up the results of step 1.

3. Use 400 or 600 grit wet sand paper with lubricant, parafin oil, to lightly hit any imperfectons or high spots.

4. Using a soft cloth clean and examine.

5. Moisten a soft cloth with parafin oil, dust with pumice medium coarse (2F) and lightly polish case.

6. Use a soft cloth, clean and examine

7. Moisten a fresh soft cloth with parafin oil, dust with pumice fine (4F) and polish case.

7. Use a soft cloth, clean and examine.

8. Moisten a fresh soft cloth with parafin oil, dust with rottenstone and polish case.

9. Use a soft cloth, clean and examine.

10. Using 0000 steel wool apply a coat of quality paste wax, let dry to a haze, polish.

11. Repeat step 10.

12. Examine and enjoy.

By all means use a very light touch or rubbing action will all the above steps.
 
D

DrewV

Shellac & More Case Restoration

Here's the order:

1) 400/600 grit paper and paraffin oil
2) 0000 steel wool and lube (wax or wool lube)
3) 2F pumice and paraffin oil
4) 4F pumice and paraffin oil
5) rottenstone and paraffin oil
6) soft cloth and wax

You should wipe and examine the surface before, during, and after each of those steps. And you can stop anytime you feel that your finish is acceptable. You don't have to go all the way through the rottenstone.

Lamar, I take it that you haven't read Craig's excellent Shellac 201 posts here on the forums. His posts pretty clearly outline these steps. Excellent posts, I highly recommend reading through them a few times.
 

Robert M.

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Lightly wet sand your case with #400 grit first Lamar and then rub it out with #0000 steel wool and Wool-Lube or its eqivalent.After that you can do the pumice and rottenstone polishing in the manner that was described to you in our previous posts.If you would prefer a satin finish rather than a gloss type finish what you can do is wet sand,steel wool and polish with your coarse pumice.You can then skip the other two polishing steps and get yourself a good quality paste wax(I use Mylands Antique Brown) and some #0000 steel wool and commence to rubbing out your case with that.The final result if done properly and I know you will Lamar, is a lovely low sheen satin finish thats very appealing to the eye.If you're not happy with that type of finish when all is said and done you can always go back and repolish your case with fine pumice and rottenstone for a glossier finish.Its strictly up to you.Some folks dispense with the coarse pumice polishing and go right from the steel wool and Wool-Lube buffing to the steel wool and wax treatment.Experiment and see which one you prefer.There's nothing written in stone when it comes to refinishing.Don't be apprehensive about taking some artistic liberties,thats the best way to learn.
Well Lamar ole buddy it sounds like you're coming along just fine.Don't worry if you make an error or two its only a clockcase not open heart surgery.Any Shellac job is easily correctable with a few more applications.No biggie.
Best of luck with your clockcase.I'm certainly looking forward to seeing some pictures of it.I know that sucker is going to be gorgeous.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton
 

lamarw

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Thank You Drew & Bob, I am through step one and two. Bob, The Shellac-Wet must have been of great help since I only had to lightly sand about three spots on the entire case. It is a large clock case. I will follow your advise on chosing when to cease and desist before waxing. I did obtain a can of "Antiquax Brown Wax". I believe that to be good stuff since I have already polished a few clocks cases with it. On second thought, I just noticed on the can that it says "Made in England". That crude remark was made for Mike Phelan's laugh. ;)
 

Robert M.

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Be careful Lamar,you know how temperamental Mike can be. ;)
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton
 

lamarw

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No Man, Mike is a great guy with a good sense of humor. He knows I have an old Rolls Royce - so he has the last laugh. :frown:
 

craig

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Lamar,
Just saw your posting here. Looks like you're in good hands. Let us know how your project is coming.
 

lamarw

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It was a most enjoyable day. I want to thank Bob, Drew, Craig and Tom. The case restoration is complete and looks absolutely superb. I went through every step ever so lightly and finished it up with two coats of wax. Have it looking good and ticking away. I have a more original dial coming, and I am giving consideration to a restoration of the reverse paintings. They are not bad and are about 80 to 90% as they are.

Thank all of you again for your help. The entire process went smoothly since I had all of you guiding each and every step.
 
D

DrewV

Shellac & More Case Restoration

Originally posted by DrewV:
I spoke with Craig briefly about using the steel wool. His opinion was that a heavier lubricant (like wool lube or paste wax) was needed in order to prevent deep scratches in the finish from the wool.

He expected that the paraffin oil would be too thin to be effective as a lubricant, although he invited me to try it for myself just to see.

I believe that I may try using a thicker oil (possibly Olive Oil) as a lubricant for the steel wool instead of paraffin oil. That way, I won't have to spend extra time trying to remove the wax before going to the pumice rubdown.
Just thought I'd update my results here.

I tried rubbing out the finish with 0000 steel wool and paraffin oil. Worked ok. Probably half as good as when using wax for a lube.

The resulting sheen is good, but not great, after using the paraffin oil as a lube. Using wax gave it a much, much higher sheen. The comparison was made after removing all the wax and oil residue with mineral spirits and allowing to dry.

I would agree with Craig's instincts -- using the wax definitely provides more of a buffer with the steel wool, allowing a finer polish than what is achieved using a thinner oil as a lubricant.
 
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craig

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Lamar,
Fantastic. Nothing like it, right? When I polish out a clock with fine stone and then apply wax, there's just something about that satin feel that begs me to rub my hand over it. For some reason, shellac just has that feel to it.

Is this your first experience with shellac? Hope you keep at it. It opens up a whole new world.

Why not use shellac-based putty for your doors, providing that putty was originally used to hold the glass in. Mix whiting (lime for striping sports fields) with liquid shellac. It has a nice long working time, and if you ever need to reverse (soften) the putty years later, just add a little alcohol and it softens right up. Truly amazing stuff.

Oh, and if you decide to ever use this type of putty, be sure to use a non-metalic putty knife. Shellac will react with the metal and turn dark. Been there. (Same reason you don't put shellac in a metal can.)

Drew,
Appreciate you getting back on the oil vs. wax experiment. Good info...thanks.
 

Scottie-TX

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I know when ta keep my keyboard shut. Jes' takin' notes here as you have well detailed the second to final faze of MY project. You're answering all th' quessions I would have asst. Thank you very much for lettin' "RM" rag on you an that takes the heat offa me. Jes' waitin' fer th' POSTman now. ("How wood you refinish"). You gave me the recipe an' I ain't gonna deviate even one haffa egg yolk so that when it comes out all screwed up that you can't say, "well you substituted egg beaters for real eggs, used lard insteada CRISCO, an' baked it at 475 insteada 550. Flakes? Yep 1# dewaxed - whutever that means, th' TALKON brush, an' shellac "wet". Please stand by ( or sit ) for next posting to, "How wood you refinish". Again, thanks for asting my quessians.
 

Robert M.

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I'm certainly happy that your clockcase went well Lamar.I believe the best part of your whole experience was your constant updates and the positive outcome of your refinishing project.This will hopefully encourage more folks on this message board to give Shellac Refinishing a try.Hopefully those who have read your updates will realize that working with Shellac is not a difficult process and the end results can be very rewarding to say the least.
I guess these refinishing posts are turning into"The Six Degrees Of Craig Burgess" because he's mentored just about everyone who has offered any refinishing help to another clockie.Just follow the trail and it leads right back to him.
Well Lamar lets see that sucker.We wait with unbridled anticipation.Post some pictures and congratulations on your successful refinishing job.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton
 
D

DrewV

Shellac & More Case Restoration

Lamar,

While we're on the subject, I was just curious as to whether or not you had filled in the grain voids completely during your refinishing project? That is, can you still see the grain pores after you've finished, or is your surface finish completely flat and shiny?

I guess this isn't just a question for Lamar, but for everyone else who has refinished their cases. I've read some articles on French polishing that recommend using pumice to fill in the pores right at the beginning of the refinishing process.

The reason that I keep sanding through the finish on my projects is that I keep trying to eliminate the grain voids, but it's becoming clear that the overall thickness of the applied shellac is not sufficient to bridge the grain voids completely.

Does anyone actually go to the point where the grain pores are completely gone, or do you just stop whenever you want to and let the grain show through?
 

Ralph

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I filled the grain partially on a bracket clock using the pumice method. I didn't strive for a full French polish and quit, when I got it to where I wanted it.

It helps and I think with some practice the technique would achieve the piano look, if I was going for that.

Ralph
 

lamarw

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Hi Drew, I hope I understand your question. I am not aware of there being grain pores after the work. My restoration effort actually involved taking two incomplete basket case clocks and building a new clock. One had a movement and parts of the case. The other clock was without a movement but had a great label, nice doors and reverse paintings. Even with both being ST Large Rosewood Gilt Column 8 Day Weight Driven clocks (Pg. 271 of Ly's 2nd Edition) there were challenges in the case restoration prior to the shellac effort. It was obvious that 150 years ago clocks were individually built and parts might be close but not an exact fit. I guess if you wanted to equate this to a car restoration, it would be a frame off restoration. My most ambitious clock project ever. I also had to obtain a dial and weights for the clock. So, components to include the veneer/wood are from two different cases along with some new veneer replacment. I applied a lot of shellac, and I went through all the steps we discussed.

The parts that I did not use were sold to a most appreciative buyer on eBay. I just hope he can help bring another clock to life with their use. I did take the best of the best for my clock, but even so there are a couple of character marks that helps prove the age. I would love to post pictures of the before and after, but I now see that I have to join Yahoo before I can join Flickr and it just seems a pain. I will gladly email you a couple of pictures or even to someone else that might like to host them on the Forum. I would describe the case as not shinny but a deep rich well grained look. It is smooth and I do not detect pores in the veneer.
 
C

chasbaz

Shellac & More Case Restoration

Drew,

The pumice grainfilling process used to be called the 'grinder'. The pumice is put inside the rubber and works its way through with the polish, powdering the wood just enough to fill the grain. Chippendale recommended filtered brick dust and oil with alkanet root [henna, I believe] to fill and colour the wood [mahogany] before polishing.
 

Scottie-TX

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If the results of these processes do not produce a grain-free mirror-like surface, I won't do it twice. I can already do that with sealers, oils, lacquer, and varnish.
 

lamarw

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Hi Scottie-TX - In my view, you do want to be able to see the view of the grain and the beauty of its presents. That is exactly what I was looking for, and I know most wanted. You want to be able to see the grain of the veneer and wood. You want to view those knots and swirls in the wood grain. That is the appearance I wanted. I do not want my clock cabinet to look like a mirror or show my reflection. I want it to display the beauty of the wood.

I could of stopped before applying the pumice/rottenstone and had an extremely shellac shiney appearance. After those applications and a brown wood wax I got what I wanted.

It does not show your face but the depths of your heart/soul.
 

Scottie-TX

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Well we're on th' same page, "LAM". I don't ALWAYS want a high gloss finish. For one, I don't want all my clocks to look alike. Some here have a very natural finish looking nearly like the wood was not finished. Some have a matte or lo-gloss finish to accentuate the grain and or course some are VERY high gloss. But in all cases I do want the grain sealed entirely without visible porosity. The one I'm doing now I DO want a piano-like gloss. That was it's original condition.
 

lamarw

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I certainly do not want my clock cases to look like that image. It would of been thrown away after Halloween.

You seem to have a bird problem. I have a large collection of shotguns. Do you need to borrow one? They all have nice walnut wood stocks that have been well preserved. Number 4 shot should take care of the bird, and numer 2 might remedy the entire picture. I would recommend the latter. No pumice or rottenstone required. The results might result in additonal rotten"bone".
 

Scottie-TX

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Ah - yeah. I do. An AVIAN curse. You know. Sum pibbles have a monkey? Well I gotta bird - cheep trick. Yeah - well I aint RAVEN about it either. I really appreciate th' offer - not everyone offers to clean yer clock - very generous of you. Guess I'll jest remain a clockSKULLector. Thanx.
 

RJSoftware

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Hey lamar.

You might got this backwards.

Robert M says to keep going until you use the rotten to get the high gloss finish. Or if you want satan quit earlier.

Allot more to this stuff than I thougt.

So did it take you 20 days to get the 20 coats of shellac, or did you fudge a bit with the drying time?

I think that I would have hard time with that temptation.

Wonder if you cant just use a hair dryer to speed things up a bit?

Also looks like things are getting expensive. But hey! you drive old rolls royce :)

I think though, if I got to the point like you where I put 20 coats of shellac on after 20 days, money would not be as big an issue. I would be totally committed to it. Hope you post some pictures. If you like send before and after to me and I will upload to my site. Then provide you with a link. No problem for me.

If you dont mind me asking, about how much in just case materials did you spend (from veneer and hide glue to rotten stone) per 1 clock?

I have 2 oggs and a steeple. Still havent forced myself to buy the hide glue and veneer. Trying to get all my ducks in a row first cause money is tight for me.

Also since your basically newbie like me at case fixin. Or actually now your way ahead.

A few more questions please...

Where did you get your veneer? What thickness and about how many sq ft?

Where did you get your hide glue? How much did you get? Where you get the specific alcohol?

Did you shop arround or just buy first that you found?

Any other specifics would be apreciated.

Here is copied text below pointing out what Robert M says so you know why I said you might had it backwards.

Apreciate your post.
RJ
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Robert M.>>If you would prefer a satin finish rather than a gloss type finish what you can do is wet sand,steel wool and polish with your coarse pumice.You can then skip the other two polishing steps and get yourself a good quality paste wax(I use Mylands Antique Brown) and some #0000 steel wool and commence to rubbing out your case with that.The final result if done properly and I know you will Lamar, is a lovely low sheen satin finish thats very appealing to the eye.If you're not happy with that type of finish when all is said and done you can always go back and repolish your case with fine pumice and rottenstone for a glossier finish
 

lamarw

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Jan 5, 2002
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RJ, You have a lot of questions, and I am not sure whether they are to inquire or to bait. I will assume that they are intended for noble purposes; therefore I will attempt to respond openly and with all honesty. I have acquired veneer for several years from various local and internet wood supply houses. I have also obtained a few orders off eBay. A couple of names that I will drop since you inquired are Van Dykes and Homestead. The actual cost is hard to calculate, and I really want go there. The Orange Shellac, Shellac-Wet, pumice, rottenstone, parafin oil, 400 grit wet sand paper and many other items were an initial investment, and I got some of that from Homestead but not all. The hide glue was obained from a local Lowes. I used little of the initial investment on this one project. It would be like asking me how much a project cost if I bought a screw driver or pair of plier for it. The next time I need it, I will have it.

Sir, To me this is a hobby and a pleasure. Many people I know spend far more playing golf. I have possible spent five hundred dollars restoring the latest clock, but I have gotten ten times that much enjoymnt from it. Of that initial investment, much of the supplies are now available for the next project. Ask someone if they have a great Seth Thomas Regualtor 2 case and how much will they pay for a Seth Thomas # 77A or B movement. :???:

Yes, I do own a 1967 RR Silver Shadow with 31,489 miles on it. I could place a bumper sticker on the rear that reads my primary drive is a 1998 Ford F-150. It has almost a hundred thousand miles on it. My dog and I both prefer to ride in it. The other is just a joy in life.

Hope I answered your quesitons. Send me your email adress, and I will forward pictures. May even bless you with a picture of my dawg wearing a chafeur's cap in the front seat of the piece of British Cr@p. Sorry Mike, but you would probably agree anyway.

Where do we go next RJ?
 

Scottie-TX

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Apr 6, 2004
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I certainly ain't "LAM's" spokesman. I don't even know if he rides a bike. But RJ, I wondered as he did about the questions. Briefly, the cost of finishing materials is the smallest cost, taking the cost of the entire project into consideration. I doubt that shellac, alcohol, pumice, rotten, wet, etc. - whatever - I doubt the total cost of the finish costs much over a dollar if that. Veneer; Old veneers were much thicker because they didn't have the machinery to cut them as thin as today. Too thick? Sand it down any way that works until close to need. Do finish sanding in place. Too thin? Build it up with an underlayer. Matches? Keep as much on hand as you can find and your wallet can stand. NOW we're talking COST ARJAY. Burls, butts, crotches, circasian walnut, cocobollo, rosewoods - now we talkin' big bux ARJAY .
 

lamarw

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Thank you Scottie-TX. My old Nam knees have gotten too bad for a bike.

Please go ahead in the future and address me as Lamar. That would be a personal favor. Best Regards,
 

RJSoftware

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Apr 15, 2005
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No, no baiting.

Just trying to find out how far out of the ball park I'm gettin with the money I'm spending.

You know it's just information. But good info sure can save money and for me since my budget is so tight...

Sorry if it was to personal. Not trying to go there.

Put it this way, if I had info that would have saved you a great deal, I would have shared it in a heart beat.

Send me pics to rjsoftware2000 at yahoo dot com.


Another question. I see that hide glue on ebay says mix with water. Do I ignore that and use alcohol?

Thanks for helping me.
RJ

P.S.
Here are 3 good reasons for my happyness.

http://www.picpuppy.com/vacation/v1.jpg
http://www.picpuppy.com/vacation/v2.jpg
 

craig

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Jan 31, 2001
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RJ,
A few months back there was a posting called Hide Glue 101. You may want to refer to that.

Only use water to make your hide glue.

If you're like me I like to use pre-made hide glue, so I have a bottle of this I got from www.wpatrickedwards.com. Lowes may eventually stop carrying the Titebond/Franklin variety of liquid hide glue.
 

RJSoftware

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Apr 15, 2005
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craig;

Thanks for info.

Hide glue 101 explained it.
RJ
 

Paul H

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Jun 23, 2005
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RJ

In respect to your question on where to get veneer. I am not satisfied with the mahogony veneer you can get at the wood working stores. Last several years I have had great results matching veneer by "harvesting" veneer from junk pieces of duncan phyfe tables. Check out the lower door on my Forestville empire clock on my site. Yep, it was harvested. Same with the multiple pieces needed fom my Atkins + Porter clock. In the end, I never refinished the Atkins + Porter clock. Latly I've got it down on how to patch the veneer and clean the case without ever refinishing and with very acceptable results.

First I will cut the junk table piece into a manageable size, then I strip the old finish off. Next I soak in hot water and peel off the veneer. Once I have my piece of veneer, I'll press it flat while it dries.

If you need to replace veneer on the front of a clock that is curved, (ie: steeple, beehive, or other)make a clamping fixture to hold the veneer in the curved position. After soaking the veneer to remove it from it's original backing of the junk duncan phyfe, while it's still wet, clamp the veneer in the curved fixture and let thoroughly dry. When removed, the veneer should already have a form close to what is needed for the front of that steeple clock. This makes gluing the veneer on to the clock much easier to do.

Good Luck all.
Paul
(still looking for that Jerome + Darrow / Marsh Gilbert 8 day wood works movement)
 

Paul H

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Jun 23, 2005
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Craig;

I, like you, want to use pre-mixed hide glue. (glue pots just sound like too much of a hassle).

I am out to buy some new hide glue since my last batch is over a year old. Both Home Depot and Lowe's here in Michigan did not have the Hide Glue. So, I'm off to the Wood Worker's Store to find some.
 

Robert M.

Registered User
Nov 20, 2004
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Paul,just a word to the wise.Last year I purchased two bottles of Hide Glue at different intervals.One I already had and with three months left before the expiration date it had already ceased to be effective(wouldn't cure).I then purchased another bottle from Woodcraft with about four months left on the expiration date and Damn if it wouldn't cure either.I took that bottle back and got a refund.No problem with Woodcraft,they're real good to deal with and I certainly don't blame them for the Hide Glue dilemma.Well anyway I mentioned it to Craig B. and he was generous enough to send me some of his stock.No problems with Craigs Hide Glue,works great.
The only reason I mention this to you is that if you purchase any glue you may want to check and make sure you have plenty of time left on that bottle or you may wind up with the same problem I had.I can't say for sure you will but I thought I'd mention it to you.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton
 

tickntock1

NAWCC Member
Feb 27, 2002
219
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Just thought I would ask a question concerning curved pieces of veneer. You can read about vacuum systems that you buy or create which use atmospheric pressure to conform pieces of pliable veneer to the curved surfaces while the glue cures.

What about the heavy plastic bags that you can now purchase at stores like Wal-Mart which you attach to your vacuum cleaner to suck out all the air for saving space when storing things.
The bags seem to be very thick, and the vacuum cleaner sucks out all the air to the point that the bag has collapsed on itself. The ones that I've used for clothing, etc. seem to be totally evacuated.
To my thinking, the amount of pressure exerted on the veneer would be the same regardless of the method used.
Has anyone ever tried this method for attaching veneer to a curved surface. Think it would work?
 

Paul H

NAWCC Member
Jun 23, 2005
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Bob F.

Thanks for the heads up on hide expiration / exasperation.

Tickntock;

Never tried bags, would they hold up under the load of a c-clamp:???:?
 

tickntock1

NAWCC Member
Feb 27, 2002
219
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Yes, Paul, I think they would - the bags that I've seen have been pretty heavy duty plastic, especially the larger ones.
 

Robert M.

Registered User
Nov 20, 2004
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Well Paul.I had a chance to look at your website and admire your assortment of clocks.No doubt about it you did a Helluva nice job of restoration on those old clocks.Unfortunately you made one grievious error.From your captions you make it pretty obvious that you are proficient in reverse painting and from the looks of your handiwork I don't think anyone would argue with you.We have refinishing gurus (Craig and Tom T.).We have great clock repair types,too numerous to mention but they know their movements .We have Gustav Becker types,Cuckoo Clock types,Hermle Aces,and 400 Day whizs but we don't have a reverse painting sharpie so I think it would be only fair if perhaps you could whip up a few tutorials to educate the artistically challenged(Gosh,that sounds like me).I know there's a bunch of us that would love to know the mechanics of doing reverse painting.Obviously me included.C'mon Paul help some fellow clockies,give us some guidiance.
Thank you very much.
Respectfully,Bob Fullerton
 

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