Setting up Hermle 1161-853

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Sam08861, May 12, 2017.

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  1. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Hi All,

    Just finished cleaning and reassembling a 1987 Hermle 1161-853BS movement. Would the set up process for this be the exactly same as the Hermle 340-020 set up process in the encyclopedia?

    http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Hermle_Chime_and_Strike_Setup



    I realize the rear wheel for the chime hammers would be a different orientation. Assuming this is the 'chime idler wheel' referenced in the above, or is the above referencing the stopworks idler wheel for the chime section?

    Couple of other questions. I've read that the warning wheel pin for the chime side setup is held at about 1 o clock setting when tightening down the stop and chime cams.

    Any similar guidance for the warning wheel pin for the strike side? Also, I did find the tiny spring that wraps around the second hand shaft but not sure how much tension to put on it and how to best secure it.

    Besides setting up the stopworks and chime/strike hammers per the service manual, any other considerations to think about for this unit?
     
  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    After you've done a few chimers, Sam, you'll learn that they are all function pretty much the same way. The 1161 is similar enough to the 340 that you'll be able to figure it out as you go.
    If you run into specific problems, we can help you through them.
     
  3. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Thanks shutterbug, will do!
     
  4. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    All, right, I've got it together and got 2 problems.

    1. Pendulum keeps stopping.

    When the clock was out of the case, I was able to spin the time mechanism by turning the cable barrels, but it did require some force.
    With the unit 'sandwich' together the second hand wheel and the next wheel spin very freely, but once you got to the wheel next to the cable barrel, it required a fair bit of pressure.
    Looking at these pivots, they seem to be nice and round and the gears spin nicely independently.

    When I place the pallets so neither is touching the gears, should the time train weight be dropping?

    Should I try removing the anchor/verge/pallet piece to see if the time train drops, in case there's no such central position? If so, at what rate should this descend?

    2. The chime system works great as I advance to 15, 30 and 45 minutes.

    However, at 1 hour, it does not 'go'. Meaning the chime train does not proceed.
    Lifting the levers allows the chime train to run, and then the strike train runs and strikes the appropriate number of hours. Can't seem to easily see anything sticking, so thinking something must be misaligned?

    Any ideas on where to start troubleshooting or usual suspects for these type of problems? Please let also me know what questions I can answer or if I can take some pictures/videos.
     
  5. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Readjusted the strike hammer and gathering pallet positions, and this seems to have fixed item 2.

    So the remaining problem seems to be the time train. removed the arbor/pallets and the weight does not spin down. Thinking I need to take the unit apart and check the time train gears and pivots?

    Any help appreciated!

    Thanks,

    Sam
     
  6. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    First, check the arbors for end shake. Then, with the plates in plane with the floor the arbors should drop freely (by their own weight) when lifted with a small screwdriver. The little copper whisker wire goes with the straight side against the second hand shaft. The round end goes under the screw head, minimal pressure.
    Willie X
     
  7. dad1891

    dad1891 Registered User

    Feb 28, 2014
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    It has to be a big problem if you don't get any escape wheel movement with the verge out of the movement. Before you split the plates, remove the time train cable drum and check to see if that makes a difference.
     
  8. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You might have bent a pivot while putting it back together too. The EW and the next one down can be easily bent.
     
  9. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Thanks folks. I' had taken this apart 3 times now with different results each time. 1st time, the time train was now turning easy, but the chime side was sticking. 2nd time strike side, and the third, I'm back at square one.

    Looking closer, I found the second had was dragging and the pin protruding for the chime cam was bent. Removing the incorrectly placed washer under the 2nd hand to the proper side of the case and straightening the rod now allows all 3 trains to move easily. Now to go through the setup up again.
     
  10. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    The chime, train and strike mechanisms all seem to work when activated. However, they aren't initiated at the quarter, half or full hours without lifting the levers, so think I must have installed something wrong or something. Taking the unit out of the case again to redo the setup and will report back with the results if they aren't what's supposed to happen.

    The timing also is a bit off, but it did run for 12 hours, so the time train seems to be working. I see there's lots of info on setting those up so will try those after I get the set up right.
     
  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    If you can post a video on Youtube and link to it here we might be able to spot the trouble.
     
  12. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    #12 Sam08861, May 15, 2017
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
    Here's what I see happening.

    The chime won't start unless the chime correction hook is lifted. It did start once in this video, but that is rare.

    After lifting the hook, it runs over several cams on the locking plate and strikes either once or twice.

    [video=youtube;XcvWtEpMBr8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcvWtEpMBr8[/video]

    sorry for the quality, Youtube is only letting me upload standard definition.
     
  13. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    Nov 4, 2002
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    Your problem is the chime lock isn't in place to lock the chime when it completes its chime.
     
  14. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Thanks harold,

    How would I fix that? Rotate the round plate clockwise 5 degrees?
     
  15. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Looking at the video again and pausing just after the pin drops on the chime lick plate, I see the locking pallet pin is at the 5 o'clock position. (42 seconds into the video for example). Assuming I need to loosen, rotate the round locking pallet counterclockwise to be at the 12 of clock position whenever the pin drops into the locking plate (one with the lobes) and then retighten onto the arbor.

    will give that a try and report back.

    Thanks,

    Sam
     
  16. dad1891

    dad1891 Registered User

    Feb 28, 2014
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    Sam, the relationship of part numbers 23 and 24 is wrong, preventing the chime train from locking. Set it up as follows:
    Turn the chime side until 23 is locked by the two hooks.
    Verify that the warning pin is somewhere between 11:00 and 1:00
    Set 24 so that the pin is in the middle of one of the valley's.

    That's all there is to it....should work.
     
  17. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I think I'd just arrest the fly when the chime cam enters a valley, then turn the stop lever to where the stop pin is in position to stop the train. Tighten it back down there and you should be good. Alternately, take the chime cam off and let the train run until it stops. That will be the 3/4 hard stop position. Put the cam back on at the 3/4 position and tighten it down. Then use the large wheel on the back side to coordinate the chimes to the cam.
     
  18. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Thank you Dave and shutterbug. I'll try that out this evening as I'm starting to understand a little better how the chime train starts and stops.
     
  19. dad1891

    dad1891 Registered User

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    Wouldn't that change the location of the warning pin?

     
  20. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    1 - Set chime stop pin to stop the train with the warning pin at the 1:00 position.
    2 - Set the chime controll cam with the pin in the center of the gullet.
    3 - Set the ratio gear (on back) so the chime completes as soon as posible to the stop point. Two or three turns of the fly is ideal.
    Note, the 4 shafts extending through the plate (one is on the strike side) should always be cleaned up with a small fine file before assembly to remove the upset metal from the setscrews. You can adjust these setscrews 'just snug' until all adjustments are correct before tightening. This way you will not have to loosen them, just turn against the single snuggled up setscrews.# Test the timing again after tightening. No need to tighten then to much.
    Willie X
     
  21. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Thanks so much everyone!

    Finally got this behaving correctly and ended up trying all 3 methods above making small tweaks to part #23 and 24 until it for all the quarters and hour. Service manual with the chime sequences (page II-14) by song was a big help in getting the ratio gear to the right part of the melody for the relevant quarter.

    Thanks Willie X for the tip on the shafts, I lightly sanded with 2000 grit then cleaned with microfiber cloth with a small amount of oil, then a clean cloth, as I notice the pin for the chime selector sticking.

    Next up is re-installing the geneva stops and getting the timing right. Quick question on the geneva stops as I've seen two approaches:

    1. The 1st to set the stops to prevent overwinding by raising the weights to 3.75" from the bottom of the movement and then putting in the cogs so they can't be wound further, preventing overwind.

    2. The 2nd is to fully unwind, raise to the weights to be just above the floor of the inside of the case and set the cogs so they won't drop any further.

    Is this a matter of preference or is there a 'right' way? Better to prevent overwind or better to prevent losing tension on the cables? Just curious to what everyone's thoughts are.

    I did the 1st method since it was easier, and I didn't want to pull the wheels again to unwind.

    Sam
     
  22. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    I use the first method but the 3.75" measurement is not carved in stone, it can be made different.
    Main thing is that all three weights will stop evenly, or close to evenly, without the weight or pulley hitting anything. I always run the weights all the way up and down a couple of times to check the stops. There should be one full turn of cable left on the drum at the 'all the way down' position.
    Replacing the regular weight/s with a lighter weight, of about 3 to 4 pounds, will make all this testing easier and safer.
    Willie X
     
  23. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I've seen more damage from banging the weights into the seat board than anything else, so I also use the first method. I've only once seen a cable come out of the spool from unwinding too far.
     
  24. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    The 'one turn left at the bottom' is also important to keep the cable from stacking at the start of the wind.
    Willie X
     
  25. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Thanks All! I'll double check the bottom stop of the cable drums to make sure they're not hitting the seat board.

    After I last posted, I did have a couple of hours at first where the unit didn't chime on 15/30/45 every other hour, but that seems to have resolved itself now. (looked like the long chime/strike lock lever and auto correction hook wasn't lifting as high) Perhaps due to the auto correction mechanism? Seems to be working now though for the past 10 cycles.

    Final problems are that I was missing a spring on the #7 hammer and replaced it, but the replacement is too strong/big, causing the chime train to bind sometimes when the 7 chime is struck. Putting it on Westminster for the time being is a workaround (since it doesn't use the 7 hammer) until I get the proper replacement spring. (Lost in my workshop, when removing the rear drum/hammer assembly to fix the threads on the chime selector slide set screw, along with several e-clips, lol.)

    Letting it run 24 hours to see if there's any time drift.

    If I can get this running right for a couple of weeks, I'm thinking about getting the auto night shutoff kit that's available for ~10 pounds from a UK seller (Cousins). I haven't found a US seller that has this online. Anyone happen to know if the US stores carry this and it's just not posted due to low demand? Will send some emails this weekend if the movement is behaving before adding to the costs.

    Thanks again to everyone for your responses!
     
  26. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You'll find that spring as soon as you replace it ;)
     
  27. dad1891

    dad1891 Registered User

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    Sam, I sent you a PM.
     
  28. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    You're not kidding shutterbug! Found 3 e-clips I searched high and low for a year ago from my turntable looking for said spring, lol.

    Dave, thanks so much of the the PM, very helpful!

    Here's the patient, buttoned up and hopefully running smoothly for a bit. The chime / strike weights are lower than the time weight from all the testing.

    [​IMG]

    I replaced the side black mesh with plexiglass so the movement can be seen like modern clocks. Hoping it's better at keeping dust out too.

    [​IMG]
     
  29. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I love the open case design. Nice clock! :thumb:
     
  30. Sam08861

    Sam08861 Registered User

    Sep 10, 2012
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    Thanks shutterbug, was a craigslist 'rescue' and as you predicted, I found that spring! 8 notes on the chimes and all is now working!
     
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