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    Rory formerly worked as Curator of Horology at the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, where his role included day-to-day management of research and digitization projects, writing, public speaking, conservation, convening conferences, exhibition work, and development of acquisition/disposal and collection care policies. In addition, he has worked as a horological specialist at Bonhams in London, where he cataloged and handled many rare timepieces and built important relationships with collectors, buyers, and sellers. Most recently, Rory has used his talents to share his love of horology at the university level by teaching horological theory, history, and the practical repair and making of clocks and watches at Birmingham City University.

    Rory is a British citizen and currently resides in the UK. Pre-COVID-19, Rory and his wife, Kaai, visited HQ in Columbia, Pennsylvania, where they met with staff, spent time in the Museum and Library & Research Center, and toured the area. Rory and Kaai will be relocating to the area as soon as the immigration challenges and travel restrictions due to COVID-19 permit.

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Seth Thomas No.2 Reissue repair

Clockhouse

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I bought a ST #2 reissue that won't keep running. It appears the previous owner did some work on the verge. Does anyone know where I can buy a new one and maybe a matching escape wheel? Any other things I should look at? What is the proper weight of the pendulum bob for these? Mine is about 2-1/2 lbs.
Thanks!
 

bruce linde

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The relationship between the verge and the escape wheel is all important on these clocks, but so is having the right weight. Your clock is seriously under powered the stock weight is about 6 pounds. People sell these on eBay, and timesavers has them as well
 
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bruce linde

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PS if you posted photos of the clock and weight, and maybe even video of the escape wheel / verge interaction, you would get even more informed answers
 

Clockhouse

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Bruce, not the cylindrical weight driving the main wheel, the weight of the pendulum bob itself. It seems quite heavy but this is my first No.2 so I'm not sure. I've heard that they are around 2+ pounds. I'll try to get photos for the other members replying as well.
 

bruce linde

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doh!... mis-read your post. 2 lbs 8 oz.... but that's not going to make anywhere as much difference as verge to escape wheel adjustments.

you need to make sure the EW teeth hit the locking faces at approx. the same places, that the drops are even, etc. again, video of that interaction (clear, well-lit, and long enough to observe for at least a minute) would be where i would start. you can upload videos to youtube and then just copy and paste the url into a post here to auto-embed.
 

shutterbug

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Show us some pics of that verge that has been worked on. You have to know what you are doing with deadbeat verges.
 

Clockhouse

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Show us some pics of that verge that has been worked on. You have to know what you are doing with deadbeat verges.
Here are 3 views. You can see someone likely removed the verge and worked on it. I'm thinking of replacing it with a ST #77 movement verge and escape wheel from Timesavers. Any thoughts?
Show us some pics of that verge that has been worked on. You have to know what you are doing with deadbeat verges.
Show us some pics of that verge that has been worked on. You have to know what you are doing with deadbeat verges.
 

Clockhouse

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Here are a couple. I can replace this verge with a ST#77 movement verge and escape wheel from Timesavers. Not a big issue to do so. Any thoughts?

IMG_0986 (1).jpg IMG_0987.jpg
 

Willie X

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These repos often come with misshaped pallets and a video is about the only thing that will help us identify the problem.
In the photos the pallets look OK, at least something you can work with. Note, buying a new one is probably not going to help you. These parts have to be carefully fitted by someone who has the tools and experience to do so. For starters, the pallet depth has to be correct, as bruce already outlined in post #5. There is no guesswork with these escapements, you have to know where your are going and exactly what it takes to get there. Necessary adjustments are usually
very-very slight. That's 2 verys rite there.
Willie X
 

Dick Feldman

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My experience is that replacement verges and escape wheels will not interchange like the wheels on an automobile. Willie is correct in that the EW and verge must be matched, fitted, etc. The pinion on the EW must be the same, the center distance between the EW and the next wheel down must be the same, etc, etc.
Some of those reproduction movements were problematic and simple parts changing will not solve the problem.
Many times (way too often) the escape assembly in a clock movement is blamed as a source of the problem. Most times, the escape assembly is the victim of low power. All too often that low power is due to friction due to wear due to long use. Lots of novice repair people zero in on the escape assembly because it is what moves and of course has to be the problem. By the time the escape assembly is “adjusted” or replaced, there are two things wrong with the clock. Two things wrong with a movement are more than twice as difficult to solve as one.
Seldom are used clocks offered for sale a good bargain. People just do not sell working clocks. Many times before being offered for sale, the clock has been worked on without success and the repair person has left additional flaws to deal with.
A good explanation for the mysteries of clock escapements can be found in This Old Clock by David Goodman.
Best of luck,
Dick
 

bruce linde

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to add on to what dick said... by the time the power has passed up (down?) the train to the escape wheel there's just enough to drive it... assuming there are no issues. while the slightest bit of friction will stop the movement, the most common problem i've run into over and over again is getting the relationship between EW and verge just right. the 61 movement allows you to adjust the height of the front verge arbor pivot, but that may or may not affect equality of locks and drops... and, too much lock on worn (or not polished) pallets can offer a little more power but also more friction. i have one 61a movement (30-tooth EW) where the verge/EW adjustment has to be perfect. if it is, it runs no prob. if not, it don't. the 77 movements, btw, do not offer verge arbor height adjustments and the position between verge and EW is fixed.

sometimes people try closing or opening the pallets, changing the overall geometry. sometimes it's wear. sometimes it's uneven locks and drops caused by a bushing job losing original arbor/pivot centers.

btw... you said 'here are three views' in a post above, but w/ no photos attached. in the two photos attached subsequently, i see some wear but nothing that couldn't be polished out. what i DO see is a seriously cranked crutch rod that should be 1) straighter and 2) perpendicular (essentially) to a line drawn horizontally from bottom of entry pallet to bottom of exit pallet... assuming those points are equidistant to the ground.

all of this is a bunch of words... video would let more informed eyes see what there is to see and inform the discussion. either way, replacing verge or EW is way down the list of next step things to do/try.
 
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shutterbug

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I agree that someone has messed with your verge, but it appears most of the damage is to the crutch part. I think you can fix that part easier than it would be to fit a new verge. The one you have might or might not be in the proper position for functioning correctly. As mentioned, a video would help. Close up of the verge/escape wheel action, with you slowly moving the verge back and forth so we can see where the teeth land when the verge is unlocked. Post to Youtube and link here. Also, the crutch should move on the verge with some pressure. Maybe the "messer" was trying to adjust it in a different way.
 

Dick Feldman

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Setting up a verge and escape wheel should not be trial and error.
There are rules and procedures.
That is not one of the processes that will bring good results if you do not know what is going on.
Once you have solved the escapement problems, be ready to face the rest of the movement.
Some of those re issue movements were troublesome (poor design and unreliable) from the start.
Good luck with your repair,
Dick
 
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