Seth Thomas K&O ATO

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by Bill Stuntz, Feb 8, 2017.

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  1. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Yes. That is what I'd like to see.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  2. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    This is what I came up for visuals...I hope they work. I've attached a picture from the side shown the adjuster and the exposed threads underneath it. Also, I thought I'd take a short video of the action at the top of the movement. Let me know if these help in anyway.

    Video at - https://flic.kr/p/QUdrvU

    As an additional note, after another 24 hours, the clock was 8 min 30 seconds slow. So, after 3 complete turns of the adjuster, the clock sped up 2 minutes.

    Kurt
    20170216_132824.jpg
     
  3. Bill Stuntz

    Bill Stuntz Technical Admin
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    WOW! Your coil cover is split MUCH worse than mine. GREAT photo.
     
  4. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    #54 Tinker Dwight, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    The weight doesn't actually turn on those threads. It hs
    some type of friction rollers on the rod.
    You have much more adjustment. Keep turning.

    See:
    http://mb.nawcc.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=176308&d=1367919157

    Tinker Dwight
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Tinker -

    Interesting...more and more threads are being exposed as I turn the adjuster. That's why I thought I'd run out of adjustment.

    Kurt
     
  6. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    If you look at the picture I posted, you can see the end of the threads, with the adjuster above the threads.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  7. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    #57 KurtinSA, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    It would appear that the adjuster is climbing up the threads of the pendulum rod. Having turned it 3 times to get back 2 hours with 8 hours still to go, that suggests to me that I need to turn the adjuster another 12 times...assuming linearity. Doesn't seem right to me.

    Kurt
     
  8. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Give it a go.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  9. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I only had the pelotas to turn it 6 full revolutions to the plus direction. After 12 hours, it was 2 min 45 seconds slow, so 5 hours and 30 minutes slow in 24 hours. So, not really all that linear...it's going to take a lot of turns to get this regulated. Still not sure what's going on...seems crazy to me.

    Kurt
     
  10. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    What is the crazy part? I told you that as you raised it, it would
    have less and less effect. This is normal for a pendulum.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  11. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    If you look at the page for section 4.3, you'll see a graph
    showing the rate change of a pendulum as you move a second
    weight along the rod:

    http://trin-hosts.trin.cam.ac.uk/clock/theory/pendulum.pdf

    Notice that as the weight approaches the center of the rod,
    the rate reaches a maximum and then starts to decrease.
    Also notice that it is non-linear. This is the effect you are seeing
    that you get decreasing effect per turn as the weight is raised.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  12. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Tinker -

    I understand the math. What seems so out of place is that I think I'm rapidly running of adjustment with the adjuster. It appears that the adjuster weight is working its way up the threads that are on the rod. At some point, those threads are going to run out, and that seems like it will be fairly soon. And if I'm seeing decreasing effect from the adjuster because it's moving towards this "center", then I'm not going to get there.

    What's crazy is how this is so different than 400-day clocks, which is my only experience. One would think that the adjuster, weight, pendulum, etc., would have been designed such that getting the clock into regulation would be within the parameters of the adjustment. But given the pieces that I'm learning on this one, that doesn't appear to be the case. Which suggests that something else might be wrong.

    Kurt
     
  13. praezis

    praezis Registered User

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    Just curious: did you test the cell material issue? Did you have the clock running with battery cells outside/ far from the pendulum magnet?

    Frank
     
  14. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Frank -

    I have a single AA battery rigged up outside the bottom of the clock...it's about 4-5 inches away from the coil. I read earlier about the issue that I think you're referring to. The clock came with a dead block battery from Timesavers. I see that they still sell those batteries. I also see that The Horolovar Store sells a AA battery adapter, which is currently out of stock. I asked Chris at Horolovar about the issue of AA batteries used in his adapter. He says he has not seen or heard of any problems associated with that adapter.

    Kurt
     
  15. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    I've been using the black plastic battery holder for 4 AAs in parallel and haven't been having any problems.
    If you're interested and would like to try it, PM me an address, Kurt, I'll send you one.
     
  16. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I'm gaining on the adjustments it would seem. I've plotted the cumulative turns against how slow the time was after each of 24 hour periods. I'm up to 15 total turns so far. If things keep to this rate, another 4-5 turns and I'll be doing well.

    Kurt
    RateAdjustment.jpg
     
  17. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Finally reached the end of the adjustment range...I can't turn the adjuster anymore. I've turned it a little over 18.5 times. The last time check I did showed I was about 20 seconds fast over a 24 hour period. The time was coming down relatively evenly, basically the same amount per turn of the adjuster...see the graph. Looks like that's as good as it's going to get.

    Kurt
     
  18. Bill Stuntz

    Bill Stuntz Technical Admin
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    #68 Bill Stuntz, Feb 22, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
    I seem to have hit the end on MINE, too. I can't get it to speed up past about 10585. I'm starting to wonder about the suspension spring. If it's getting ready to fail due to metal fatigue, would that make it run slow?
    Here are a couple photos with the light from slightly different angles to highlight the 2 leaves: SuspensionSpring1.jpg SuspensionSpring2.jpg
    I'm holding the "side bar" of the pendulum up against the coil to maximize the flex in the suspension spring. It's a bit more flexed than it is in normal operation.
    It looks like there's a stress point on the inner edge of each leaf. Maybe they're starting to crack there?
     
  19. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Yes, these clocks have some sensitivity to the thickness of the
    suspension spring. Some of the lighter bob clocks that use the
    same spring are even more sensitive, like the Haller clocks.
    I suspect you may find the other side is where the failure is.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  20. Bill Stuntz

    Bill Stuntz Technical Admin
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    #70 Bill Stuntz, Feb 22, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
    The photos in my last post were taken looking at the concave side of the flexed suspension spring.
    These photos are the opposite side, both concave & convex. Is that what you mean?
    ss3.jpg ss4.jpg ss5.jpg ss6.jpg

    Looking at the condition, is it likely that a new suspension spring will speed it up a little?

    P.S. I had to take THIS widget off to actually see the leaves of the suspension spring. Does it serve a useful purpose? ss7.jpg
    It snaps over the suspension post.
     
  21. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    It is suppose to be a guard against too much swing but
    not all that effective.
    The spring is made of a single piece with the center punched
    out. It is difficult to have any irregular bend in one without
    a similar bend in the other, unless there is a weakness someplace.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  22. Bill Stuntz

    Bill Stuntz Technical Admin
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    #72 Bill Stuntz, Feb 23, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
    That's what I thought, but it seems pointless... The pendulum is captive in the coil because of the side bars that support the curved magnet. If it tries to swing too far, it stops when it touches the coil - about 1/2in past its normal swing.

    Maybe it likes having it's picture taken. I can't imagine why, but it's running at 10803 instead of 10785. I wonder why fiddling with it caused it to speed up.
    P.S. I committed a typo in my previous post. It was only about 15bph slow before I fiddled with it, NOT 215.
     
  23. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I guess if one considered that the suspension could could be pushed sideways, it would limit
    the amount of bending.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  24. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    After each regulation adjustment, give the pendulum a slight downward tug to remove any binding that might be occurring in the suspension as a unit.
    Sometimes, just putting one of these into shipping mode for a move, speeds the clock up.
     
  25. Bill Stuntz

    Bill Stuntz Technical Admin
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    I see what you're getting at - it certainly makes sense. But I didn't feel that the limited movement to take photos justified shipping mode. In fact, I would have had to move the clock just as much to engage/disengage shipping mode as I did to take the photos.

    Dwight: Were you affected by the San Jose Coyote Creek (?) flood evacuation? I heard on the radio that people are now allowed to return to their homes after the water level went back down.
     
  26. Tinker Dwight

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    A different area. It is a big spread out city. We'd be more endangered by Los Gatos Creek.
    My guess is that during the drought, we'd taken more water out of the ground and
    lost altitude in that area. Something blocked the Coyote Creek and lower level of the ground
    was a formula for problems.
    It was totally unexpected by the officials. Most of the people found out they were in trouble
    when they looked out the window and saw the fireman floating by in his boat.
    A lot of damage done and I expect a lot of lawsuits.

    If you can't get the rate down any other way, you can either try adding a heavy brass bushing
    at the center of the suspension or raise the arc of the bob a single turn.
    THe bushing would go right above the adjuster.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  27. Bill Stuntz

    Bill Stuntz Technical Admin
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    I'm glad you're OK!
    It's weird - as near as I can tell with parallax & without a second hand, it's EXACTLY on since I set it after taking those photos at about 7pm last night. I didn't adjust it at all. Clock Tuner is showing 10800 +/- about 4bph. I'd been trying to get it up to speed for a few days, and couldn't get it above about 10785. Suddenly it's right on without doing anything except take pictures of the suspension spring! I think it's time to put the dome back on.
    I got tired of: take it off...twist the bell...put it on...test...repeat.
     
  28. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't advocating putting in shipping mode. That was a separate observation to support the case for making sure the pendulum is always suspended without any slack caused by parts binding.
     
  29. Bill Stuntz

    Bill Stuntz Technical Admin
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    No, I understood correctly - it made perfect sense. I was just acknowledging that I know about shipping mode. I had used it when I brought the clock to its new home, but now that it's in a more-or-less stable position, I don't bother with it for small movements. I still don't know why, but after I took the photos, the bph increased JUST enough without trying to adjust anything. It's been running for 2+ days since I took the photos & restarted it. As close as I can tell, it MIGHT have gained about 5-10 seconds since I set it. I'm a happy camper! :D
     
  30. Bill Stuntz

    Bill Stuntz Technical Admin
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    It looks like it's gained about 1 minute since I set it on 2/22. I wonder if I can get it any closer than that. Should I try to tweak it a little, or leave well enough alone?
     
  31. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You might consider trying a new suspension spring.
    You could also make a small brass weight to slide over the adjustable
    weight.
    Otherwise you can move the lower arch piece up a turn on the shaft, if it
    still clears the coil.
    Those are the options or just live with it.
    Tinker Dwight
     

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