Seth Thomas flea market find

[penjunky]

Found this guy at a flea market, looks good, nice dial and hands and case, nice and clean, the lady said she saw it running and keeps good time, so, I just couldn't let it sit there all by it's lonesome.

Stamped on the movement is—made in Germany for Seth Thomas, a talley industry co. The numbers are, A403-001 and 8110—unadjusted. The paper stamp on the case is pretty plain.

The Cat # is 1314A, so would that mean it's made January 14, 1913? If not could anyone kinda get the age range from the info.

Don't have a database nor where to look yet except here. Never been in a movement like this and don't plan on getting into this one anytime soon but when I do it'll just be for checking condition, movement on pivots and oil, after I'm educated enough on it.

Got it home, went to give it a few winds but it's already wound tight but not running (no big suprise) . I'll have to do some checking into it to see if I can get it started and if it'll run like the lady said, and the three winding stems, which one is which, until then it'll just sit and stare at me.

I'll be working on taking good pictures before long.

Roger

 

[bwclock]

Your Seth Thomas clock movement was made by Hermle for Seth Thomas. It is a Hermle 340-020 movement which Hermle stamped with the Seth Thomas information but without the production date one finds on the standard 340-020's. The clock is probably from 1982 based on the ink stamp in your photo of the label. This date is consistent with the characteristics of the movement. The standard 340-020 movement had bottom hammers while the ones made for Seth had side hammers.
These clocks were frequently retirement gifts from corporations.
Bruce

 

[penjunky]

The clock is probably from 1982

Thanks bw

I was hoping it was older but the case resembles the furniture style of the 70's. I'd read somewhere to read a number backwards told the date, so figuring it might be 1913. Anyway try to find info and videos on this dud and see if I can get it running, It does play a nice tune.

Roger

 

[JeffG]

As for winding arbors, the left side is for the hourly strikes, the center is the time train, and the right side is the quarterly chimes.
Two searches to get you started- "letting down mainsprings" and "floating balance escapements".

 

[Joe Gargery]

If you liked the style of this clock when when you first saw it, don't be too quick to throw in the towel on this one just because it's not a true antique. It's still a nice looking mantel clock and, as you said, "It does play a nice tune". It probably wouldn't be outrageously expensive to get it functioning again.
I've collected clocks of many different eras and many different styles. From a couple centuries old right on up to the 1980's. I enjoy each and every one of them and strive to make sure they all work, no matter what era they're from. I've never sold one but on rare occasions I'll make a gift of one to an appreciative friend. Once in a while, just like you did, I'll stumble across a nice looking clock from the 70's or 80's, neglected, covered in dust and, even though it may or may not work, I just have to pick it up. I can't explain why my taste is so eclectic. I love antiques but a clock doesn't have to be one to qualify. My wife says I'm just a sucker for a neglected orphan!
Cheers, Joe

 

[penjunky]

As for winding arbors, the left side is for the hourly strikes, the center is the time train, and the right side is the quarterly chimes.
Two searches to get you started- "letting down mainsprings" and "floating balance escapements".

Hi JeffG

Thanks for the tip, plan to do searches before attempting anything. That is an interesting looking balance system to say the lest. I moved the hands just to hear it chime and when it chimes the clock will run for a bit, maybe the vibration. The balance really swings slow. But, at least it's running a little which is a plus for me.

Roger

If you liked the style of this clock when when you first saw it, don't be too quick to throw in the towel on this one just because it's not a true antique. It's still a nice looking mantel clock and, as you said, "It does play a nice tune". It probably wouldn't be outrageously expensive to get it functioning again.
I've collected clocks of many different eras and many different styles. From a couple centuries old right on up to the 1980's. I enjoy each and every one of them and strive to make sure they all work, no matter what era they're from. I've never sold one but on rare occasions I'll make a gift of one to an appreciative friend. Once in a while, just like you did, I'll stumble across a nice looking clock from the 70's or 80's, neglected, covered in dust and, even though it may or may not work, I just have to pick it up. I can't explain why my taste is so eclectic. I love antiques but a clock doesn't have to be one to qualify. My wife says I'm just a sucker for a neglected orphan!
Cheers, Joe

Hi Joe and thanks.

I really do like this clock and I'm as anxious to get in this guy as a new born calf is to a tit. I work on pocket watches so I am familiar with the mechanics, but not getting in a hurry til I get educated enough. And yup, this guy was giving me that orphan look, so I brought him home along with two of his old pocket watch buddies. This will be an antique by the time my youngest grandkid gets my age.

Roger

 

[Schatznut]

This will be an antique by the time my youngest grandkid gets my age.

Yep, and by that time that Hermle movement will need an overhaul or two. You've got time.

 

[Richard.W]

I work on pocket watches so I am familiar with the mechanics, but not getting in a hurry til I get educated enough. And yup, this guy was giving me that orphan look, so I brought him home along with two of his old pocket watch buddies.

Congrats !
You'll be right at home working on this clock. I consider them half clock and half watch. The balance wheel is obviously borrowed from watch design and is serviced just like a Watch. In this setting the BW is just as sensitive to dust without half the protection. The remainder of the movement is pure clock.

Enjoy !

 

[penjunky]

This clock is playing mind games with me. This morning I turned the hands just to hear it chime and the darn thing took off running and it's been running for 6 hours. So I just let it get with it but didn't check to see how accurate it is but I am now.

And thank all of you guys for your positive feedback. Have a good one.

Roger

 

[Richard.W]

This morning I turned the hands just to hear it chime and the darn thing took off running and it's been running for 6 hours.

Yes, moving the minute hand forward is the correct way to start the movement. It should be beating right at 9000 BPH.

There should be a small, bright zinc, 3-legged part sitting atop the BW. Move that in tiny increments toward either the Plus or Minus marks on the rear plate to do the fine rate adjustments.

 

[Kevin W.]

Worn out clocks like this hermle do this, run a while, chime and strike and then stop. Needs a overhaul, will need repairs. If you like it, learn how to repair it. You are on the best website to learn clock repair.

 

[penjunky]

This clock has now ran for 26 hours and it's lost

Yes, moving the minute hand forward is the correct way to start the movement. It should be beating right at 9000 BPH.

There should be a small, bright zinc, 3-legged part sitting atop the BW. Move that in tiny increments toward either the Plus or Minus marks on the rear plate to do the fine rate adjustments.

Hi Richard

I saw the - + on the movement but didn't see any 3 legged thing over the balance wheel, only saw the spring at the top of the movement. Will take a closer look when it winds down, don't really want to disturb it right now. Maybe I can get a good picture and post it for help. Have no way yet to check the BPH but so far the clock has run for 32 hours straight and lost about 40 minutes.

Worn out clocks like this hermle do this, run a while, chime and strike and then stop. Needs a overhaul, will need repairs. If you like it, learn how to repair it. You are on the best website to learn clock repair.

Hi Kevin

Yea, even though I can't wait to dig into it but it probably won't anytime soon, just hope it don't need much. I did see some oil on the escapement and it is pretty clean so maybe someone cleaned and oiled but forgot to mend it before I got it. And yea, I've spent a lot of tine on this forum, got some great advice but only in watch repair, but no doubt I'll be on this forum a lot more.

You guys have a good one and thanks...Roger

 

[penjunky]

There should be a small, bright zinc, 3-legged part sitting atop the BW.

Hi Richard

That 3 legged thing atop the BW, is it a wheel, does it set right on top of the BW and turn with it? I saw it before but all I could see (i think) was two tiny screws at top but took a long look and did see three legs on bottom (i think)

Roger

 

[JeffG]

There is a lot of info on this site about adjusting floating balances, but I've noticed many of the links are dead ends. I'll attach a couple of PDF files for you that have been posted previously-
-Jeff

 

[Richard.W]

I saw the - + on the movement but didn't see any 3 legged thing over the balance wheel, only saw the spring at the top of the movement. Will take a closer look when it winds down, don't really want to disturb it right now. Maybe I can get a good picture and post it for help.

• A close-up photo of the balance wheel with better lighting would be a tremendous help. Hermle has 2 types of these wheels, and they have different adjustment methods. I sincerely don't want to lead you down the wrong path.

• If you have a smart phone, you can load an app called Clock Tuner, and then pay $4 to get the "pro" version. (I prefer to use last year's phone so that it is only performing this single function.) The app uses the phone's mic and computer to listen, measure and plot. Obviously, the app is triggered by any sound, so you'll need to get away from radios, slamming doors, cat fights, etc. But playing with it will teach you a lot.

 

[penjunky]

There is a lot of info on this site about adjusting floating balances, but I've noticed many of the links are dead ends. I'll attach a couple of PDF files for you that have been posted previously-

Hi Jeff

Thanks for the pdf, interesting set up. I've studied over it and will study more, especially about adding and removing weights, try to find a video on that.

A close-up photo of the balance wheel with better lighting would be a tremendous help. Hermle has 2 types of these wheels, and they have different adjustment methods. I sincerely don't want to lead you down the wrong path.

Hi Richard

Been tryin to get a good picture but still too may shadows and glare. Will try to defuse the light somehow to get rid of the glare and if I get a picture that's plain enough to see good I'll post it.

You guys have a good day...Roger

 

[penjunky]

A close-up photo of the balance wheel with better lighting would be a tremendous help.

Hi Richard

This picture is the best I have to do with, hope you can see it good. The clock has run for 47 hours and if my figuring is right it's loosing about 1.7 minutes an hour

Roger

 

[Richard.W]

The Spider which I referred to, sits directly atop the BW. It's clearly visible in photo #1. It would be easier to recognize when viewed from above.

Before adjusting the Spider, you should clean and inspect the entire time train. Your root issue could simply be old, oxidized oil gumming up the mainspring and/or time train.

Most Hermle movements have a design life of ~25 years, so again, bushing and pivot wear is also a very real possibility.

 

[penjunky]

The Spider which I referred to, sits directly atop the BW. It's clearly visible in photo #1. It would be easier to recognize when viewed from above.

Before adjusting the Spider, you should clean and inspect the entire time train. Your root issue could simply be old, oxidized oil gumming up the mainspring and/or time train.

Most Hermle movements have a design life of ~25 years, so again, bushing and pivot wear is also a very real possibility.

Thanks Richard

When I can get to it I'll remove the movement where I can give it a good look over

Roger

 

[JeffG]

..., especially about adding and removing weights, try to find a video on that.

Don't!
Once upon a time, when those balance assemblies were available as replacement parts, removing/swapping around weights may have been necessary, but your clock used to work correctly with the weights arranged as they are. If it won't run correctly within the adjustable range you have, something other than the weights is causing the issue- old oil and pivot/bushing wear being the most probable causes.
-Jeff

 

[penjunky]

Don't!
Once upon a time, when those balance assemblies were available as replacement parts, removing/swapping around weights may have been necessary, but your clock used to work correctly with the weights arranged as they are. If it won't run correctly within the adjustable range you have, something other than the weights is causing the issue- old oil and pivot/bushing wear being the most probable causes.

No plans to get into the balance. (sometimes my fingers don't type the words I have in mind) I'll let it run down, take out the movement and give it a look over. I was just curious about the weights being similar to PW weights. I'll watch what videos I can find before I do anything. Is that screw on the left side of the regulator supposed the be like that?

This guy has run for 80 hours and from what I've stumbled across maybe this is an 8 day clock?

Working with PW's I know I can't speed up the amplitude much at all if any by adjusting the regulator before first servicing the watch and I figure this clock is the same way.

Thanks...Roger

 

[Schatznut]

Yes, it's an eight-day clock.

 

[demoman3955]

2 things i noticed that look off to me, and maybe im wrong, but.....

 

[penjunky]

2 things i noticed that look off to me, and maybe im wrong, but

Hi Demoman

I saw that screw but didn't pay much attention til I went back again and studied the pdf JeffG posted. Just wondering if it would have much of an impact causing the slow amplitude. Can't really tell about the two outside points, if only I could get closer with my loupe, One never knows who's been in it before and what they have done.

Thanks...Roger

 

[penjunky]

2 things i noticed that look off to me, and maybe im wrong, but.....

Hi Demoman

The clock finally ran down and now that it's stopped and I can get a good look at the balance, it's obvious the balance wheel isn't level, the left side sits lower than the right side. Is that what you were pointing out in the picture?

Roger

 

[demoman3955]

Hi Demoman

The clock finally ran down and now that it's stopped and I can get a good look at the balance, it's obvious the balance wheel isn't level, the left side sits lower than the right side. Is that what you were pointing out in the picture?

Roger

yep, that and what looks to be 2 screws and one is in or down farther then the other.

 

[penjunky]

yep, that and what looks to be 2 screws and one is in or down farther then the other.

Anything but the balance gee wiz! Maybe have time to take the movement out this week and give it a once over.

Thanks...Roger

 

[penjunky]

Hey guys, couple questions for notes before I tear into this booger.

I took out the balance gave it the 270 test it swung for 1min 30sec. It had way too much oil & crud over the jewels & wire so I cleaned it up, re-tested it swung for 3min 20 sec, pretty good from what I've read about it.

I noticed the pallet fork looks a little odd, is it supposed to lean like? Looks bent to me. I was extra careful to free the balance from everything when I took it out.

I also noticed the pallet fork hits the right banking pin, some times so hard I can hear it knock, but does not hit the left pin.

Also, at times the escapement wheel hesitates for a swing or two before running again.

I hope this don't lead to another suspenseful horror-ology episode, Alfred Hitchcock would be impressed.

This is going to need some bushings and probably a new winding spring when I get to it.

Roger

 

[penjunky]

yep, that and what looks to be 2 screws and one is in or down farther then the other

From what I can see it looks like one screw is just longer than the other

 

[JeffG]

Yes, you may have bent it when taking out the balance wheel, or maybe that’s why it has been hitting the banking pin. Check your pre-disassembly pictures to verify (of which there are hopefully many).
Before you try straightening it, it’s a good idea to take care of bushings, cleaning, polishing, etc before going around bending things. Clocks usually stop due to general wear rather than spontaneous bends.
-Jeff

 

[penjunky]

Clocks usually stop due to general wear rather than spontaneous bends.

Hi Jeff

Yea, if i got one bend by taking out one part, then I might have several spontaneous bends. I plan to take many pictures, notes and sketches. One I'm looking at now, just for a picture for later on, when in the resting position does the roller pins supposed to sit like in the left picture or the right picture? Couldn't get in there for a picture so drew a sketch.

Just looking in my spare time trying to get an idea of things to come. Haven't done anything yet. Have to get some tools first and if I have to I'll draw a sketch and make notes of everything inside the movement before taking it apart.

Roger

 

[penjunky]

Yes, you may have bent it when taking out the balance wheel, or maybe that’s why it has been hitting the banking pin

Hey Jeff

Went ahead and took the hammers off, yep took pictures, so now I can get a really close look, the roller pins set wider than the square shaped grove in the fork, so they hit the horns when oscillating. So they must set as in the picture to the right.

Look over my over-anxiousness...Roger