Seth Thomas 89C chimes 3 minutes before the hour

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by mmccra2858, Aug 2, 2014.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    Hi I have a 1910 Seth Thomas Adamantine mantel clock with an 89C movement.
    I got the movement working again, it strikes the hour correctly, meaning 5 o'clock strikes 5 times. The problem is the chime strikes when the hour hand is about 3 minutes before the hour.
    The hour hand shaft is square so the hour hand can't simply be adjusted.
    Is there a way to adjust the chime so that it strikes when the hour hand is at the top of the hour?

    Thanks
     
  2. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 18, 2011
    7,078
    182
    63
    Male
    Professional Engineer - Retired
    Brockville, On Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You can try turning the hand over. Or check to see if the hand has a bushing in it that can be turned.
     
  3. wow

    wow Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 24, 2008
    3,379
    132
    63
    Male
    Retired Music Minister
    Pineville, La. (central La.)
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If turning the hand over does not do it, you will need to bend the J shaped lever which rides on the hand arbor in the center of the movement. Watch the lever as you turn the minute hand slowly, and you will see that the lever releases too soon. Bend it outwards slightly to make it release later.
     
  4. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Will has the solution, I believe. Increase the bend of the J hook a VERY TINY bit.
     
  5. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    Will,

    Thanks, I'll try bending the J shaped lever the minute hand can only go on one way so this looks like the only option.

    Matt
     
  6. wow

    wow Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 24, 2008
    3,379
    132
    63
    Male
    Retired Music Minister
    Pineville, La. (central La.)
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I do not understand why the minute hand will only go on one way if it is a hand without a bushing. If it has a brass bushing, you can adjust the bushing (as David said) so it will strike correctly
     
  7. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    I tried bending the J shaped arm, now the clock chimes constantly and will not stop.
    What should I be looking for?
     
  8. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The only thing I can think of is that when you bent it, it changed something above it. That lever assembly lifts the one above it, which starts the action of the train. There's a flat area that fits under the next lever up, and lifts it. Look there. If you don't find anything, try to get some pictures of the levers for us.
    Bending the J hook can't by itself provoke a run-on strike, so don't do anything there yet.
     
  9. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    Please see attached pictures
     

    Attached Files:

  10. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Things look right there, but the pictures load so slow that I can't get a close-up look. They are moving the servers tomorrow, so that might fix the issue so we can see better. In the mean time, try to get a picture of the top of the lock movement, strike side upper corner.
     
  11. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    hope this is the view you wanted.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
    13,666
    63
    0
    Calif. USA
    Are you sure you bent the J hook and not the
    count lever?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  13. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Good point, Tinker. They do both look a bit like a J. So Matt, the one you want to bend is inside the movement and is raised directly by the center arbor. Otherwise, in your last pic (1st one) you show the stop lever. When the count lever drops into a deep slot, the stop lever should drop down and hit the stop pin. If you bent the count hook, go ahead and bend it back so it enters the deep slots straight and centered.
     
  14. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    I think you guys are right I think I bent the count lever, I got the clock to chime again but it skips sometimes. I went to work today around 1:30 it was working at that point when I got home at 11:00 it chimed 3:00.
    Sounds like I need to adjust the count lever.
    Is there a diagram available identifying the pats of a clock movement?

    Thanks for your help
     
  15. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  16. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
    13,666
    63
    0
    Calif. USA
    You need to make sure the count lever end goes cleanly into
    the slots. It can not touch the edges of any slot or it will
    not stop on that count. some times the count wheel wobbles
    a little so make sure it clears for each slot.
    Identify the J hook and watch how it works.
    As the center shaft rotates with the minute hand, it will start
    to lift the J hook. As it does this, it will allow the warning
    wheel to rotate a little and it also lifts the count lever. If you
    look inside, you'll see that the maintenance cam rotate a little
    as well.
    As the minute hand rotates a little more ( hopefully at the hour )
    it will drop the J hook, releasing the warning wheel and allowing the
    strike to count. After each count, the maintenance wheel will rotate
    to the notch in it. This will allow the count lever to let down on the
    count wheel. If it doesn't let down on a slot, it will continue to count.
    When it does find a slot, the maintenance cam will let the following
    lever go deep into the slot. This will allow the stop detent to block
    the pin on the warning wheel.
    It will then be ready for the next hour.
    Buy change the J hook slightly, you can advance or retard the
    minute that the strike starts.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  17. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    Thank you, that was a big help.
    Now I understand why the J hook would make such a difference in the position of the dial in relation to the chime.
     
  18. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    I thought I had solved the chime problem with my clock.
    I made sure the count lever went into the count wheel without touching.
    I bent the J hook, I was able to get the hand to less than a minute before the 12 O'clock position.
    everything was working fine until I wound the chime spring all the way.
    The clock (not all the time) chimes about 10 minutes before the hour then again at the hour.
    Of course the chime is out of sync at this point.
    Any ides of what I should be looking for.

    thanks in advance.
     
  19. wow

    wow Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 24, 2008
    3,379
    132
    63
    Male
    Retired Music Minister
    Pineville, La. (central La.)
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    When you turn the minute hand to the point where the J hook is lifted high enough to release the wheels, you have reached the "warn". When these wheels begin to move, they they are stopped by a lever which catches a pin on the wheel next to the fan. If that lever does not stop the wheels, it can be bent so it does stop the wheels, or the J hook, which is connected to that same arbor, can be adjusted so the stop lever is high enough to stop the train. These two levers must be just right in order for the warn to take place. Once you have it where the top lever stops the train, then the J lever should release the train when the minute hand reaches 12. There is a fine line there. Keep trying, ever so slightly in each adjustment, and you will get it right.
     
  20. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Usually the warning stop lever is on the same lever as the J hook which initiates the rising levers. When the wheels release, there MUST be a lever in the way to stop the train. It usually stops the same wheel (and same pin) that the stop pin is on.
     
  21. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    I finally ended up working on the clock last Saturday. I bent the lever closer to the stop pin, that did the trick.
    It's been over 48 hours, the clock is running fine and chiming correctly.
    Thanks to you shutter bug and tinker.
     
  22. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Good job, mmc! :thumb:
     
  23. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    Can I ask for some help one more time?
    My 89C is missing the speed adjustment that you access from the front
    of the clock.
    I bought an old 89C for parts from E bay, it has the missing speed adjustment gear and shaft.
    Can you explain how to get the gear and shaft out of the movement.
    Thanks
     

    Attached Files:

  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The bottom gear goes through the movement. I can't remember if you can slip it out the back side or if it has to be removed. The rest of it you should be able to see how to switch it out. If you have to remove that gear, you'll have to file the edges of the arbor where it was expanded until it will slip off. Leave as much length as possible so you can put it back on.
     
  25. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    The speed adjustment gear is attached to the rod that is accessible through the clock face. The gear meshes with the gear for the threaded adjustment rod. The threaded adjustment rod is fixed in two tab that are attached to the 89C frame. The threaded rod can't be removed without disengaging the gear and likewise the speed adjustment rod can not be removed without disengaging its gear.

    I see what you mean about filing the arbor where it's peened to remove the gear and then remove the rod.
    After installing the rod and gear into the working 89C, how would I be able to peen the shaft without damaging the clock movement.

    Is there any other way to remove the speed adjustment shaft and gear?
     
  26. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I don't think so, mmc. Sorry :)
     
  27. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
    13,666
    63
    0
    Calif. USA
    An alternative is to remove the small bearing block
    holding the lower gear shaft. One could either solder
    it back on or add a pair of small screws to hold it to
    the plate.
    They just were not intended to be removed or disassembled.
    Dang!
    Tinker Dwight
     
  28. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    I filed off the peen from the gear side of the shaft and was able to punch the shaft through the gear and remove the shaft and gear from the movement.
    The shaft has a square end and is broached into the hole of the brass gear, this is what keeps the gear from spinning on the shaft.
    The square end is short and does not have enough room to be re-peened.
    What I'm going to do when I assembly it into my clock, is use cylindrical Loctite #609 it's designed for tight fitting cylindrical parts. I think that will hold the gear in place and I won't have to put any undue stress on the frame of the clock.
    My one fear of peening the shaft was damaging the movement.
    I'll probably install the gear and shaft sometime next week, I'll borrow some Loctite from work for the job.
    I'll let you know how I make out.

    Matt
     
  29. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Don't let the Loctite dribble onto the plate and lock the whole gear :)
     
  30. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    138
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Don't know how the gear will turn at all with loctite holding the shaft it is on.
     
  31. mmccra2858

    mmccra2858 Registered User

    Aug 2, 2014
    15
    0
    0
    Just a small amount of Loctite between the shaft and gear, being careful not to dribble it on the frame.
     
  32. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,141
    605
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yeah, he's talking about the speed adjuster. The shaft and gear both turn at the same time.
     
  33. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    138
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ah, Yes. I was thinking loctite where it had been peened:whistle:
     
  34. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    523
    2
    18
    Male
    Sales
    Maryland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hello: I have a Seth Thomas tambour 89 movement with a very similar problem. The clock strikes the half hour dead on the 6. The hour strikes on the 11. In my situation would one of the strike release pins need to be adjusted?
     
  35. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,575
    581
    113
    #35 Willie X, Jul 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
    Locate the 'J' hook. You will probably see that it has been tampered with?

    Long story short, put a little more or less 'curl' in the hook part. If you sit and study what is happening (as you turn the minute hand to make it strike) it should become clear whether it needs the 'more' or the 'less' curl to get the desired results. We're only talkin about
    an adjustment of around 1mm here.


    That flattened end of the J-hook is there to allow the minute hand to be turned backwards. When the minute hand is moved backwards the tip of the little lifting piece (on the minute hand shaft) should push the flattened part of the J-hook out of he way, thereby allowing the hand to go backwards without damage. The flattened part should not be bent at a wierd angle. It should more or less follow the curve of the hook and the face of that flattened part should be at about a 45 degree angle to work smoothly.

    Willie X
     
  36. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    523
    2
    18
    Male
    Sales
    Maryland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks Willie: Wouldn't bending the J hook cause the half hour strike position to change? The half hour is dead on.
     
  37. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,575
    581
    113
    The half hour count is usually an 'on passing' araingement and independant of the hour count. A good photo of the movement you have would help. There are many variations.

    If the half hour count is as just described, the actual strike train will not do anything at the half. Willie X
     
  38. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    523
    2
    18
    Male
    Sales
    Maryland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    This is a pic of the center shaft from an identical movement. It has two release pins. I could be wrong but I thought one would be the half hour gong and the other for the hour.

    DSCF5701.JPG
     
  39. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,458
    308
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You are correct. You have an active half hour strike. To fix your problem you will need to bend the pin that triggers the hour strike a very small amount. This will be trial and error.

    Uhralt
     
  40. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    523
    2
    18
    Male
    Sales
    Maryland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Since its striking almost 5 minutes too soon would you suggest bending it towards the shaft or away
     
  41. Peter John

    Peter John Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2018
    260
    92
    28
    Male
    Watch and clock repair
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You would need to bend it in the direction that would give a later drop off. Not away or towards the shaft but in the direction that would be to the right if you were looking directly at the end of the pin. This would allow a later drop. It’s just trial and error as stated before. Peter
     
  42. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,458
    308
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    What Peter said.

    Uhralt
     
  43. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    523
    2
    18
    Male
    Sales
    Maryland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks to both you and Willie for the help. I'll be sure to post the outcome.
     
  44. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    11,575
    581
    113
    Yep, away from the direction of rotation. Don't twist it. If it loosens you will have to disassemble the movement to fix it.
    Willie X
     
  45. Paul Arsenault

    Paul Arsenault Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    523
    2
    18
    Male
    Sales
    Maryland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I must be lucky today. One tiny bend and it's dead on. Thanks guys.
     
  46. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,458
    308
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You're welcome. Glad to help.

    Uhralt
     
  47. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,037
    285
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:

Share This Page