Seth Thomas 124 Chiming Clock Questions

[Schatz70]

I've taken apart and reassembled several two train movements and with some trepidation am going to attempt to fix this chiming clock, my first attempt at a three train movement. What scares me the most is a) reassembly and b) the ST 124 movement from what I understand any bushing work has to be spot on accurate or it won't run. The movement clearly needs a complete overhaul - the movement is quite dirty, the chime side and strike side run, but a little sluggishly, and the time side doesn't run at all - there seems to so much friction that no power at all reaches the escape wheel. More specific questions will follow in further posts.

 

[Schatz70]

I've let down the springs, removed the split plate with the spring boxes, and removed the main wheels. Now I have to get the springs out of the spring boxes. I have a couple of winding arbors that are too big, so I'm going to have to make one. On another post in these forums someone said making a winding arbor is straightforward - you get a piece of steel rod the right size or turn it down on the lathe, file one end square, drill a hole and insert a piece of steel to use as a hook. Has anyone here done this? Can you give more specifics on what you did and what problems you ran into?

In the side views in the second and third pictures you can see that someone cut a chunk out of the side of one of the spring boxes for some reason. I dunno, maybe he ended up taking that spring out by hand or something.

 

[Schatz70]

In the process of letting down the springs, unfortunately I bent one of the clicks up a bit and it won't lie flat now. I think it will still work, but I wish I hadn't done that.

 

[R. Croswell]

You are correct that the 124 is not especially forgiving. It has fairly small pivots so even small bushing errors can be an issue. I think Steve Conover covers this one in his book Chime Clock Repair. Getting that reference would be my first recommendation. Other than being dirty, it impossible to know just why this clock does not run. You will need to disassemble to clean this movement and the experience will be helpful. You can better evaluate everything after it is clean.

RC

 

[Schatz70]

I thought the lack of power on the time side might be due to a broken mainspring, but with the springs removed if I apply pressure with my thumb to the next wheel up on the time side it won't move at all, whereas the chime side and strike side will run using the same method. For some reason there is a LOT of friction in that time side. I know, I know, I'm going to have to screw up the courage to take the whole thing apart, clean everything, polish pivots, evaluate for wear. I'm hoping to able to fix this clock, but it's going to be a challenge.

 

[Schatz70]

You are correct that the 124 is not especially forgiving. It has fairly small pivots so even small bushing errors can be an issue. I think Steve Conover covers this one in his book Chime Clock Repair. Getting that reference would be my first recommendation. Other than being dirty, it impossible to know just why this clock does not run. You will need to disassemble to clean this movement and the experience will be helpful. You can better evaluate everything after it is clean.

RC

Thank you. I have the Conover book and there is also a one hour Mark Dalton video on YouTube showing him reassemble this movement. In my head I am fully aware that in order to fix this clock I'm going to have to completely disassemble the movement - it's a matter of working up the courage to actually do it.

 

[Kevin W.]

Good luck Schatz i will follow this thread.

 

[Vernon]

Take lots of pictures. Keep each train separated. Once cleaned and pivots polished, just work one train at a time to keep it simple. The winding arbor is just as you described.

 

[wow]

I just finished two of these. Conover’s book and many photos did it. Mark each wheel before removing. It’s easy to get some of the small ones upside down or in the wrong train. Good luck.
Will

 

[Kevin W.]

Thanks for the good tips all.

 

[R. Croswell]

I believe the strike and chime flies (fans) are not identical and easily mixed up.

RC

 

[Schatz70]

I believe the strike and chime flies (fans) are not identical and easily mixed up.

RC

That's good to know. My plan is to have three separate containers for the time, strike, and chime trains and keep them separated.

 

[shutterbug]

Also be sure you don't lose the spacers under the lower plate. They have to be in there.

 

[Schatz70]

I took it all apart. The spacer washers on the bottom left pillar look to be replacements and are on there so tightly that I'm going to just leave them there. Someone buggered the threads on the bottom right pillar, then drilled a hole in it and tapped it to receive a screw. Not ideal, but it works. The washer on that side comes off and I have to remember to put it back on. Two questions:

1. I had a fair bit of trouble getting the gathering pallet off and in the process bent the long pivot on the strike side it goes on a little. I'm tempted to just grab a pair of pliers to try to straighten it out, but is there a better way of doing that? (third picture)

2. The suspension spring on other clocks I've worked on just slides out. On this one, there is a hole drilled in the top of the suspension spring and it is basically riveted on with a piece of brass wire. I don't see any reason to take that apart - is that right? (fourth and fifth pictures)

 

[wow]

I use a hollow punch to straighten out bent arbors. That suspension spring is usually held on with a wire. Someone probably used a tapered pin and it got stuck. Should punch out.

 

[Schatz70]

I use a hollow punch to straighten out bent arbors.

Thanks, that's helpful.

That suspension spring is usually held on with a wire. Someone probably used a tapered pin and it got stuck. Should punch out.

It is held on by a wire. Is there any reason to take it apart? I'm tempted to just leave it there.

 

[wow]

Thanks, that's helpful.It is held on by a wire. Is there any reason to take it apart? I'm tempted to just leave it there.

No. You can leave it. No problem.

 

[Schatz70]

There is an arbor that goes between the plates on the chime side that has the chime lifting lever (18) and the drop lever (23). After cleaning in the ultrasonic cleaner, I noticed that the chime lifting lever is way too loose and in fact rotates on the arbor easily and pulls off quite easily (second photo). I'm thinking the best way to fix that is to go around the hole in the lever carefully with a punch to get a tighter friction fit.

The other thing that occurs to me is that since the cam on the center wheel with four tabs on pushes this lever up every fifteen minutes, this is what actuates the chime side and that the position of the chime lifting lever on its arbor is critical in determining the chiming points. Since it is just a friction fit, it can be adjusted to give an accurate chiming point (i.e. the time at which the clock chimes agrees with the minute hand) after the plates are back together. Is this right?

 

[wow]

I think you are right on both assumptions. Just stake that lever on tight enough that it will still slip but not easily. Do not solder.

 

[murphyfields]

Schatz70 Thank you for documenting your attempt. I am learning from your work.

 

[Schatz70]

Today I tackled getting the springs back into the spring boxes, my first experience using sleeves with a spring winder. When I took out the springs, I couldn't get my home brew winding arbor to work, so I ended up grabbing the the inner coils with needle nosed pliers and pulling them out by hand. Getting them back in by hand I thought would be very hard, so I tweaked my home brew winding arbor to get it to work - did some filing on the hook. In the course of getting the springs back in I had to adjust how far out the hook projects a couple of times, using a punch to make it stick out further or just hammering it back in to make it stick out less.

I sprayed on Slick 50 as the lubricant, then used a small brush to spread it around and get as far into the inner coils as I could. When the springs were fully wound, I used a rag to wipe off excess lubrication.

Some things I found out the hard way:
1. You don't want to use the absolute largest size sleeve that will fit inside the spring box. You need a little more room to maneuver.
2. When you put the sleeve on the wound up spring, you need to leave the outer edge of the spring projecting out of the slot in the sleeve, or else you're sunk.
3. Getting the winding arbor unhooked sometimes requires getting in to the inner coil with a small screw driver to free it.
4. When you are first winding the spring, you use one hand to turn the crank, another hand to maintain tension on the hook in the outside hole of the spring, and your third hand to keep all of the coils of the spring lined up in the same plane. This procedure is a little more difficult if there is just one of you, which was the case.
5. If you put the strike side spring in the chime side spring box, you have to take it out again and start over.

Once I had all the springs back in I had trouble getting the main wheels to hook onto the holes in the inner coils, so again I had to get into the inner coils with a screw driver and a small needle nosed pliers to shape the inner coil to get it to hook.

Something like four hours later, I think I'm done this part.

 

[wow]

That all sounds so familiar. Great job! Nothing teaches like experience.

 

[shutterbug]

Any other movement would not have caused so many challenges. If you got that one done, you can do any others more easily.

 

[Fitzclan]

Good job. We’ve all been there with those spring boxes. Next one will be a breeze!

 

[MuensterMann]

Would love to have a slender barrel arbor for the 124 to remove the mainspring out of the covers. I have one but it is not slender and I must open the inner mainspring coils too much. Since the winding direction for all 3 trains on the 124 is counterclockwise, the cover arbor needed must be clockwise. I would like to find one or buy one.

 

[Schatz70]

The reason I am overhauling this movement is that it wouldn't run. When I removed the mainspring boxes, before I took the rest of the movement apart, I put my thumb on the bottom wheel of the time train and tried to move it but couldn't. The problem was thick, gooey black deposits in the pivot holes creating so much friction that no power was making it up to the escape wheel. After cleaning the parts and polishing pivots, I put the trains back in one at a time to evaluate. The time train would now run with thumb pressure, but three of the pivots were moving around too much in the pivot holes. I put in a total of seven bushings, two on the strike side, three on the time side, and two on the chime side, then tested each train separately to make sure it would run just pushing on it with my thumb.

Based on a stamp on the hammer assembly, this movement was made in December, 1950, making it 70 years old. As far as I can tell, I am the first one to put in any bushings, which is probably a good thing in that I don't have to worry about someone else's errors in getting the centers of the new bushings spot on with where the original pivot hole centers were. Deciding which pivot holes to bush seems like a judgment call. Maybe someone else would have done more bushings than I did, but I want to err on the side of not introducing more centering errors than I have to, since RC has said that this movement is very unforgiving in that regard.

At this point I am pretty confident that someone who knows how to reassemble and adjust this movement could get if working. For me, that's going to be a challenge and the part I have been most afraid of.

 

[Vernon]

Schatz,
You will need Steven Conover's "Chime Clock Repair" book to set up the chime and strike. There are 10 pages worth of info on the 124. This book has 18 chime clocks in it so it's worth the price if you repair.

 

[Carl Bergquist]

Heed the advice of Vernon and work on one train at a time. I like to get the time train running strongly and then have Conover's book at hand as I work on the other two. I just put one together and the chime correcting isn't correcting, so, book in hand, I know what I need to do tomorrow. Good luck with yours.

 

[Schatz70]

It took a while, but I was able to get the plates back together with all 17 arbors between the plates. In talking about adjusting the chime side, Conover says it may be necessary to "Ease the plates apart enough to allow you to correct the mesh of the fourth wheel with the pinon on the fifth arbor." Have you found that to be necessary, i.e. to have to pop a wheel back out to get it to line up right?

 

[Vernon]

Yes, it took me a couple of tries. Some wheels in the other trains were not staying put. It was a struggle.

 

[Schatz70]

Yes, it took me a couple of tries. Some wheels in the other trains were not staying put. It was a struggle.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. Conover says install a bunch of the other parts, then check the chime side and if it isn't locking right you have to pull the plates apart again and pull out one wheel on the chime side when you risk wheels other than the one you want also popping out.

 

[kinsler33]

Watch how the chimes stop after each sequence. Note that when the chimes go into warning a pallet on the chime lever is lifted up so as to catch a pin on one of the wheels, thus stopping the chime train until that pallet drops away from that pin at exactly 15 minutes. We'll call these the warning pin and the warning pallet. Look carefully at these and make sure that the warning pin has stopped well away from the warning pallet.

The exact stopping position of the warning pin will vary somewhat, but make sure that it's nowhere near the warning pallet. Otherwise it's quite possible for the warning pallet to rise precisely under the warning pin and get stuck there--occasionally.

Yes, the warning pallet has a sharp edge to keep that from happening, but it still happens. And when the warning pallet gets stuck the clock will stop dead. But it doesn't always happen, and doesn't usually happen often.

The solution is to pry the plates apart sufficiently to unmesh and then reposition the wheel that carries that warning pin. It may take a couple of tries.

Apparently Seth Thomas clocks are perhaps more prone to this sort of interference than some others, but I've seen it on German grandfather clock movements as well.

It just about drove me nuts until I recalled some advice I read on this forum.

Mark Kinsler

 

[wow]

I just put one back together yesterday and found that the lifting lever shown in post#18 was too loose on the arbor. It would slip on the arbor. You have to open the plates and remove the arbor to tighten it. Check it before reassembly. I spent my first hour in the shop today removing it, knurling the arbor, and installing it. Now I have to start over adjusting the chimes.
124’s are FUN!

 

[kinsler33]

I just put one back together yesterday and found that the lifting lever shown in post#18 was too loose on the arbor. It would slip on the arbor. You have to open the plates and remove the arbor to tighten it. Check it before reassembly. I spent my first hour in the shop today removing it, knurling the arbor, and installing it. Now I have to start over adjusting the chimes.
124’s are FUN!

Forgive me for mentioning non-traditional materials, but could a drop of thread lock compound have fixed that without disassembly?

M Kinsler

 

[Schatz70]

Forgive me for mentioning non-traditional materials, but could a drop of thread lock compound have fixed that without disassembly?

M Kinsler

I think you adjust the chiming points (the minute hand showing the right minute when it starts chiming) by adjusting this lever which wouldn't work if you glue it down. It has to be tight enough to not move in ordinary service but movable to adjust the chiming points.

 

[wow]

I think you adjust the chiming points (the minute hand showing the right minute when it starts chiming) by adjusting this lever which wouldn't work if you glue it down. It has to be tight enough to not move in ordinary service but movable to adjust the chiming points.

Yep. It has to move on the arbor but should stay where you put it. Mine was really loose. Wouldn’t stay in place.

 

[kinsler33]

Ah. Apparently there's no bushing on the minute hand. I'd forgotten about that. Thanks.

Mark Kinsler

 

[Schatz70]

It took me about six tries of pulling the plates apart, popping out the chime side warning wheel, unmeshing it, and rotating it a little, and putting everything back together to get it adjusted so that it will lock where Conover says it has to lock, i.e. when the drop lever (23) is centered over the slot in the chime cam (24). Now I'm having a different problem.

With the set screw loose on the chime lock piece (10) (that's the set screw sticking out to the right of the plates in the third photo), everything seems to work properly. With one thumb putting pressure on the bottom wheel of the chime side, and the other thumb advancing the time side, the chime side goes into warning, then runs, then locks. When I tighten up that set screw, it will no longer lock. The chime lock piece just stays up at the level of the rim of the locking plate and when the lock piece comes around to one of the gullies in the locking plate the lock piece doesn't go down into it and so it never locks. I'm tempted to say, just leave the set screw loose, but that can't be right. What am I doing wrong?

 

[Royce]

No, you can't leave the set screw loose; that would be too easy. I adjusted by doing the following:
Loosen the set screw on the chime lock piece (10) and the locking plate (11). Advance the chime side to ensure that the drop lever (23) is over the notch in the chime cam (24). Lift up the chime lock piece (portion) (10) enough to turn only the locking plate (11) to the 3rd quarter position and let the chime lock piece (10) fall into the notch in locking plate (11). Tighten the set screw on the locking plate (11). I then held the chime lock piece (10) down into the notch while pressing the drop lever (23) into the notch on the chime cam (24) and then tightened the set screw on the chime lock piece (10). I found that if I didn't hold them both down while tightening the set screw, one would move a bit when I was tightening the set screw. Now they will fall into the notches concurrently. To insure that they will unlock, lift the chime lock piece (10) and rotate the locking plate (11) enough to allow the lock piece (10) to sit on the edge of the locking plate (11). Look at the drop lever (23) and place it on the rim of the chime cam (24). If they are both toughing the rim of the locking plate and chime cam, you are good to go. If not, loosen the set screw a little on the chime lock piece (10)and press both the chime lock piece & drop lever down onto the rim and while hold them down on the rim, re-tighten the set screw.

These are really fun movements to work on; not. I hope this helps.
When you get this step complete, the real fun begins with the chime correction mechanism adjustments. Be patient and you will conquer it.

Royce.

 

[Schatz70]

No, you can't leave the set screw loose; that would be too easy. I adjusted by doing the following:
Loosen the set screw on the chime lock piece (10) and the locking plate (11). Advance the chime side to ensure that the drop lever (23) is over the notch in the chime cam (24). Lift up the chime lock piece (portion) (10) enough to turn only the locking plate (11) to the 3rd quarter position and let the chime lock piece (10) fall into the notch in locking plate (11). Tighten the set screw on the locking plate (11). I then held the chime lock piece (10) down into the notch while pressing the drop lever (23) into the notch on the chime cam (24) and then tightened the set screw on the chime lock piece (10). I found that if I didn't hold them both down while tightening the set screw, one would move a bit when I was tightening the set screw. Now they will fall into the notches concurrently. To insure that they will unlock, lift the chime lock piece (10) and rotate the locking plate (11) enough to allow the lock piece (10) to sit on the edge of the locking plate (11). Look at the drop lever (23) and place it on the rim of the chime cam (24). If they are both toughing the rim of the locking plate and chime cam, you are good to go. If not, loosen the set screw a little on the chime lock piece (10)and press both the chime lock piece & drop lever down onto the rim and while hold them down on the rim, re-tighten the set screw.

These are really fun movements to work on; not. I hope this helps.
When you get this step complete, the real fun begins with the chime correction mechanism adjustments. Be patient and you will conquer it.

Royce.

Thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to write out this detailed explanation.

 

[Schatz70]

I'm still having the problem that when I tighten the set screw on the chime lock piece (10) the chime side won't lock, even following Royce's directions. Now I'm reconsidering the issue I raised in post #18 above about whether the chime lifting lever (18) is supposed to freely rotate on its arbor or not. I ended up staking the chime lifting lever (18) firmly onto its arbor but maybe that was a mistake. Maybe it's supposed to rotate freely on its arbor, as it was when I disassembled the movement. I'm confused.

The other thing I'm wondering is what is the purpose of the chime cam (24) and the drop lever (23). It looks to me like what causes the chime side to lock is the chime lock pin (20) being stopped by the chime locking lever (8), which is part of the chime lock piece (10). So if the drop lever (23) doesn't lock the chime side when it drops into the notch on the chime cam (24), what is it for?

This is really frustrating. I'm dead in the water until I figure out how the chime side is supposed to work.

 

[Schatz70]

Watching Mark Dalton's YouTube video on assembling this movement, about 5 minutes in it looks to me like he puts the chime lifting lever on loosely - he just sticks it on there with his fingers, which to me implies that it will then turn freely on the arbor. What do you all think?

 

[fbicknel]

5. If you put the strike side spring in the chime side spring box, you have to take it out again and start over.

Yes indeedy. Take a sharp punch or other hardened steel implement (sharpened chime rods work great) and scratch C S and T into the tail of each spring, winding arbor, barrel, and barrel cover as you take them apart. ALSO for many movements, mark the direction the spring winds on the inside of the barrel next to the anchor point. You don't want to put the spring in backwards and you don't need to stop and figure out which way is the right way when you reassemble each of the barrels.

Also, in future, just use the arbor that comes with the spring. No need for a special-made arbor

I agree with you on Mark's video. Those three levers between the plates just flop around in there until the assist springs and/or gravity are in place.

I'm enjoying watching your progress. I did a couple of theses a year or so ago and I recall the fright you're experiencing.

Nothing beats the feeling of watching it function properly once you get it all put back together.

 

[shutterbug]

Use a marker, don't scratch things

 

[Schatz70]

Use a marker, don't scratch things

I agree. To keep from mixing up wheels from the three trains, I have just kept them separate through the whole process.

 

[shutterbug]

I thread each wheel in a train onto a key chain and latch it to hold them. Then they never get mixed up during the cleaning, polishing, etc.

 

[Royce]

I'm looking at a spare 124 (why would anyone have a spare - don't know). The chime lifting lever (18) must be tight on the arbor as it rises due to the lobe on the time arbor and that is what unlocks the chime locking piece (10) and the drop lever (23). I think the issue is possibly that when one is setting the chime lock piece (10) and the drop lever (23) into the slots on the locking plate (11) and the chime cam (24) respectively, one must insure that the chime lifting lever (18) is not be on the lobe on the time arbor. Therefore, when the chime lifting lever starts rising due to the lobe on the time arbor, it moves the Chime lock piece (10) and the drop lever (23) out of the slots in the locking plate (11) & chime cam (24) respectively. Does this make any sense? That is my thoughts but I am definitely no expert.

 

[Royce]

Schartz70, "The other thing I'm wondering is what is the purpose of the chime cam (24) and the drop lever (23). It looks to me like what causes the chime side to lock is the chime lock pin (20) being stopped by the chime locking lever (8), which is part of the chime lock piece (10). So if the drop lever (23) doesn't lock the chime side when it drops into the notch on the chime cam (24), what is it for?"

At the mark 17:29 on the video, he explains briefly that when the Chime lock piece (10) drops in the slot on the locking plate (11), the drop lever (23) drops in the slot on the chime cam (24) concurrently. The drop lever (23) dropping into the slot in the chime cam along with chime lock pin (20) being stopped by the chime locking lever (8) is what stops the chime side. I'm guessing that the drop lever is there to prevent the chime lock pin from taking the full load and causing it to bend or break over time. I was a bit surprised that he didn't go over the adjustment for the Chime Correction Lever which to me is the most touchy and frustrating part. However, Conover does a good job covering this.

Attached are 3 photos taken at the Chime locked position. Photo 1 shows drop lever (23) in the slot of the chime cam (24) and the chime lock pin (20) in the proper position in relation to the chime locking lever (8). Photo 2 shows the chime lock piece (10) in the slot on the locking plate (11) and Photo 3 shows the chime lifting lever (18) in the proper position (between lobs). Hope this helps.
Royce



Edit: Additionally, please be sure that the Chime lock Piece (10) is not shoved up against the plate causing it to bind a bit. It needs to free fall with the help of the spring.

 

[Schatz70]

The chime lifting lever (18) must be tight on the arbor as it rises due to the lobe on the time arbor and that is what unlocks the chime locking piece (10) and the drop lever (23).

I've gone back and forth on the issue of whether the chime lifting lever (18) needs to be tight on its arbor or not several times, staking it firmly twice and loosening it back up twice, each time having to take the front plate off so giving me lots of practice taking apart and reassembling the movement. Reasons to think it should be loose include 1) mine was fairly loose when I initially disassembled the movement and 2) when I asked Mark Dalton about it in the comments section of his YouTube video he said it should be loose. The main reason to think it needs to be tight is that it needs to turn its arbor to unlock the chime side. At the moment I have it loose and I think I (finally) have it working.

The center wheel has a cam with four tabs on it which unlock the chime side every fifteen minutes by pushing up on the chime lifting lever (18). When the chime side is locked, the chime lock pin (20), which is on the chime side wheel one below the fan, is against the chime locking lever (8) and the drop lever (23) is in the notch in the chime cam (24). You are correct that in order to unlock the chime side, the chime lifting lever (18) has to turn its arbor to move the chime locking lever (8) up to release the chime lock pin (20) and also lift the drop lever (23) out of the notch in the chime cam (24). In practice, even with the chime lifting lever (18) very loose on its arbor, it develops enough friction with its arbor that it will turn the arbor enough to unlock the chime side when it is pushed up by the tab on the center wheel.

When the chime lock pin (20) is released, the chime side goes into warning. The chime side runs a slight amount until the chime lock pin (20) is stopped by the chime warning lever (19), which is an arm of the chime lifting lever (18). Another thing that happens is that the drop lever (23) moves out of the notch on the chime cam (24) and up onto the rim. Conover says "During the first few seconds of chiming, they keep the chime lock piece from falling back into the slot in the locking plate."

As the time side advances further, the chime lift lever (18) drops off of the tab on the center wheel, releasing the chime lock pin (20) and causing the chime side to run. This is the moment at which it may be important for the chime lift lever (18) to be loose on its arbor, because with nothing pushing on it it can drop freely under the force of gravity. At this moment the chime lock piece (10) is not yet fully out of the notch in the locking plate (11), hence Conover's point about the importance of the drop lever (23) and the chime cam (24). The chime lock piece (10) now rides on the rim of the locking plate (11) until it reaches the next notch, at which point the chime side locks.

One thing is for sure - in order to successfully reassemble a movement like this, you have to develop some understanding of how it works.

 

[wow]

Yep. It has to move on the arbor but should stay where you put it. Mine was really loose. Wouldn’t stay in place.

I was wrong about the lift lever staying put. It should be totally loose. It must be able to drop by gravity when the other two levers are on top of their lobes and the chime train is running. The two levers, 9&10, are lifted by the arm of the main lifting lever when it pushes up on a pin protruding through the plate from lever number 10. That pin also raises the chime correction lever. The lifting lever must be loose so it will drop down and rest on C-3 arbor while the wheels are turning.
Royce and I have been talking on the phone about this, and while talking, we realized that that little pin is what is lifted. That’s what was wrong with the one I’ve been working on. That little pin was not protruding through the plate far enough to be pushed up by the lift lever and the lifting lever was too tight on it’s arbor. It all works right now. Crazy set-up!!!